James Newton Howard's Fantastic Beasts And Where To Find Them

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

4 hours ago, Arpy said:

@TheUlyssesianI think it's a little too bombastic and overpowering for that particular scene. I can see what you're going for and agree it would be a great opportunity to reprise Jacob's theme, however I think it would need to be something that's more tender and paired down.

 

It's the finale! You gotta go chest up balls out.

Williams certainly did for the first 2 HP films, ending them with enormous thematic crescendos, so I think there is precedent within the franchise. 

[Arpy 4,145]

But those scenes had wideshots and had the feeling of the conclusion of a story and weren't as intimate as Queenie entering Jacob's store! It's a bittersweet moment that needs to be understated because the reactions of the characters tells the story and not the music.

[TSMefford 1,509]

Gonna resurrect this old thread here. I was interested in watching this again, so I dug it up and realized I've never seen this video shared here before and always thought it was an interesting look into the creation process.

 

Here's James Newton Howard breaking down writing the WB Logo / Main Title moment at the top of the movie and he goes through 4 or 5 versions with different themes and ideas, complete with demos from the film and reactions from David Yates.

 

 

I'd be curious to see what members here think of the other potential versions.

 

This is certainly reflected here:

Quote

1m1 v.39 Main Titles
1m1 v.40 Main Titles

 

[eitam 364]

Thank you for sharing this! I agree with him that the final version is the best, but I'm still not sure it goes well with such a visually dreary opening (but that's on David Yates)... 

 

God, how many pictures of JNH sitting at the piano do these photographers need ? 

[TSMefford 1,509]

2 hours ago, eitam said:

Thank you for sharing this! I agree with him that the final version is the best, but I'm still not sure it goes well with such a visually dreary opening (but that's on David Yates)... 

 

God, how many pictures of JNH sitting at the piano do these photographers need ? 

 

Right?! Shut up and let us listen!

 

I also think he ended up with the best fit, but it was very interesting to hear the other possibilities

[Alex 2,833]

That video makes me think that JW would have absolutely hated working with Yates.

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Don't see why - JW seems as willing to write alternates as most other composers.

 

I've read about a few late composers that didn't like revising cues, but you'd never get away with that mindset now.

[TSMefford 1,509]

30 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Don't see why - JW seems as willing to write alternates as most other composers.

 

I've read about a few late composers that didn't like revising cues, but you'd never get away with that mindset now.

 

Sure...but 40 versions?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:26 AM, TSMefford said:

Gonna resurrect this old thread here. I was interested in watching this again, so I dug it up and realized I've never seen this video shared here before and always thought it was an interesting look into the creation process.

 

Here's James Newton Howard breaking down writing the WB Logo / Main Title moment at the top of the movie and he goes through 4 or 5 versions with different themes and ideas, complete with demos from the film and reactions from David Yates.

 

 

I'd be curious to see what members here think of the other potential versions.

 

This is certainly reflected here:

 

 

What a great video.

 

What a luxury - having over a dozen themes at your disposal - that you can try different themes. 

 

I actually think a haunted eerie children's choir version of the main theme would have been a better candidate though I do love the current main title.

 

His own main theme version was not good.

 

It is bizarre that he would even think about using Jacob's theme for the main title. WTF?

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

What a great video.

 

What a luxury - having over a dozen themes at your disposal - that you can try different themes. 

 

I actually think a haunted eerie children's choir version of the main theme would have been a better candidate though I do love the current main theme.

 

His own main theme version was not good.

 

It is bizarre that he would even think about using Jacob's theme for the main title. WTF?

 

 

That choice was indeed a little bizarre. I was wondering too why he didn't play with the arrangements of the themes more instead of just throwing them out and moving on to another one.

 

Although, he only showed 4 or 5 versions out of what ended up being 39-40 versions. So who knows. He might have tried different arrangements.

 

An interesting note I think is that most of these versions seem to still be a little too cheerful for when that ominous house shows up after the Title. The final version starts to get more threatening when it appears.

 

Overall, it's a really great insight into the creative process and how many options one can go through as well as even the bad ideas that some great composers can have.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

4 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

Sure...but 40 versions?

It’s not really a  comparable situation at all but Spielberg considering over 200 different 5 note motifs for CE3K came to my mind

[TSMefford 1,509]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

It’s not really a  comparable situation at all but Spielberg considering over 200 different 5 note motifs for CE3K came to my mind

 

I suppose it's somewhat comparable 

[Alex 2,833]

A younger JW, maybe. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

7 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

Sure...but 40 versions?

 

Was it 40 versions that Yates was shown and rejected? Or was it 40 versions that JNH himself did, from draft to final demo? That's not made clear, and in my experience composers label every single one of their drafts, and may only show the director a handful that they're satisfied with. Add to that the two components of the given example - Hedwig's Theme and another theme for the film's titles, that's several permutations that JNH would have worked with (e.g. one version of the cue has Hedwig's theme on celesta plus a JNH theme, another version would possibly have Hedwig's theme on French horn plus the same JNH theme, then he'd change his theme but try it with a different Hedwig's theme etc etc).

 

Also for what it's worth, I've never understood the angle that Williams deserves any kind of special treatment as a composer. He's done so many films and I guarantee that he's had to revise cues over and over again to satisfy a director or producers. He's a professional, part of that professionalism is helping realise the director's vision. A composer is only one part of a film, and while vital it's by no means the single most important role.

 

In this example it's an opening cue, literally the first thing the audience experiences, and extremely important for establishing the feel of the movie. I'm not at all surprised Yates wanted it to be absolutely perfect. It doesn't sound as if the majority of the rest of the score had to go through similar revisions.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Yet another piece of modern film music that isn't complete until it's driven by a string ostinato. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

4 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

Was it 40 versions that Yates was shown and rejected? Or was it 40 versions that JNH himself did, from draft to final demo? That's not made clear, and in my experience composers label every single one of their drafts, and may only show the director a handful that they're satisfied with. Add to that the two components of the given example - Hedwig's Theme and another theme for the film's titles, that's several permutations that JNH would have worked with (e.g. one version of the cue has Hedwig's theme on celesta plus a JNH theme, another version would possibly have Hedwig's theme on French horn plus the same JNH theme, then he'd change his theme but try it with a different Hedwig's theme etc etc).

 

Also for what it's worth, I've never understood the angle that Williams deserves any kind of special treatment as a composer. He's done so many films and I guarantee that he's had to revise cues over and over again to satisfy a director or producers. He's a professional, part of that professionalism is helping realise the director's vision. A composer is only one part of a film, and while vital it's by no means the single most important role.

 

In this example it's an opening cue, literally the first thing the audience experiences, and extremely important for establishing the feel of the movie. I'm not at all surprised Yates wanted it to be absolutely perfect. It doesn't sound as if the majority of the rest of the score had to go through similar revisions.

 

Sure and you're right. I've personally written 8 versions of a cue before on my own with various changes to instrumentation and minor compositional changes as well, but at the end of the day it was essentially the same cue, saying the same thing, even with the same motifs, but just in different ways. I wasn't quite sure on that one how it needed to play in the scene yet. I think we ended up going with...v6 if I remember correctly.

 

You make a fair point. I just think 40 is quite a lot. And I'm sure there are other versions still not shown in the video that were shown to Yates. I'd imagine it wasn't a simple matter of discarding the themes outright. They may have tried some other variations before abandoning it. 

 

To be clear, I wasn't trying to knock JNH at all. It's certainly a natural part of the creative process and the professional thing to do, to keep going until you find the right place. I meant it more of a knock at Yates if anything. It seemed like more of a thing where he didn't quite know what he wanted from the way Howard describes it. 

 

As far as the rest of the score, most don't come out to half as many versions, but one gets quite close to the amount of versions the Opening racked up. Examples:

Quote

1m5b v.18 Niffler Bank Part 1
1m6 v.34 Niffler Bank Part 2

2m3 v.15 Creatures Escape

3m1 v.17 Inside The Case

3m4 v.15 Niffler Jewelry Store

3m5 v.23 Erumpent

5m4a v.12 Escaping The Macusa Pt 1
5m4b v.17 Escaping The Macusa Pt 2

6m1 v.18 Demiguise Intro
6m3 v.17 The Occamy

7m6 v.15 Don't Do This
7m7 v.13 Graves Fight
7m8 v.20 Newt Releases The Thunderbird
8m1 v.15 Jacob's Farewell

 

Again. None of this is a knock on Howard, it seems that Yates just may have been more in over his head with all the thematic ideas and didn't quite know what to make of all of it.. That being said, some of these versions are a bit extreme. The most I typically see range from 1-8. Maybe up to 10 or so, but yeah.

 

It's just interesting. I appreciate JNH for speaking candidly about something like this. Always interesting to see more of the process.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Fair points, all. I didn't mean to say you were knocking Howard, but similarly I don't see how multiple revisions means Yates was in over his head? To me it reads more like he's meticulous in the details. 34 versions doesn't necessarily mean 34 completely different cues, it could be a lengthened note here or an extra texture there to highlight some of the action. JNH is known in the industry for being extremely efficient and detailed with his MIDI mockups, which in all likelihood enables him to make small adjustments as he receives feedback. These are luxuries that pen-and-paper composers didn't have, because when the orchestra is booked and the music is heard for the first time even the most minor adjustments add up to tens of thousands of dollars.

[Phoenixius 6]

Hey JWFan members! I'm a newbie but lurker for a few months, happy to join the cause!  

 

Here's the more detailed and elaborated story of the Fantastic Beasts intro ( 17:13- 39:30) but I recommend to also watch the first 17 minutes about his past. 

What's interesting is that he made about the last 20 cues alone and didn't discuss it with David Yates, as this was talked about above here but unknown. 

Also, the audio quality is better (no photograph shutters) but it's played on a keyboard and not a piano unfortunately.

 

 

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

8 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Fair points, all. I didn't mean to say you were knocking Howard, but similarly I don't see how multiple revisions means Yates was in over his head? To me it reads more like he's meticulous in the details. 34 versions doesn't necessarily mean 34 completely different cues, it could be a lengthened note here or an extra texture there to highlight some of the action. JNH is known in the industry for being extremely efficient and detailed with his MIDI mockups, which in all likelihood enables him to make small adjustments as he receives feedback. These are luxuries that pen-and-paper composers didn't have, because when the orchestra is booked and the music is heard for the first time even the most minor adjustments add up to tens of thousands of dollars.

 

Sure. I mean that is one interpretation, but looking at Howards other scores, they don't appear to have such high versioning. Hunger Games for example never goes above 9 versions of a cue. Most of his others have a few cues that break into the 20 version range, which I think is perfectly fine. That reads to me as detailed as you say. 40 versions is where it starts to seem a bit high. 

 

30 minutes ago, Phoenixius said:

Hey JWFan members! I'm a newbie but lurker for a few months, happy to join the cause!  

 

Here's the more detailed and elaborated story of the Fantastic Beasts intro ( 17:13- 39:30) but I recommend to also watch the first 17 minutes about his past. 

What's interesting is that he made about the last 20 cues alone and didn't discussed it with David Yates, as this was talked about above here but unknown. 

 

 

 

 

Well. I stand corrected. Lol. Again, I appreciate how candid he is with how difficult it was for him to come up with that opening. Much more detail in regards to which version is what and what exactly those other versions are. That's helpful. It also does appear that he did play with different arrangements of the themes. I think he shows an extra version here that he didn't show in the video I posted. It appears you were more on the money @Docteur Qui

 

It most certainly could've been the minor adjustments, which it ultimately ended up being, but it's hard to know for sure exactly what the changes are between all those versions, especially when different composers version differently.

 

Perhaps this makes me a less meticulous composer, but I personally don't save every version or tweak of a cue. My version numbers only really go up when there's a noticeable change. Everything in between I really just consider "massaging" if you will. Maybe I should reconsider this in the future.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Fantastic video @Phoenixius, thanks for sharing!

 

22 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

Perhaps this makes me not as meticulous of a composer, but I personally don't save every version or tweak of a cue. My version numbers only really go up when there's a noticeable change. Everything in between I really just consider "massaging" if you will. Maybe I should reconsider this in the future.

 

I can only speak for myself, but if I make a version of a cue and then go to bed I'll always save a brand-new file the next day to work with, just in case. Like you though I rarely change the name unless there's some noticeable change. Great insight into JNH though, I see so much of myself in him - especially when he mentioned that he's a "melody guy", which is my absolute achilles when it comes to professional gigs.

[TSMefford 1,509]

9 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

I can only speak for myself, but if I make a version of a cue and then go to bed I'll always save a brand-new file the next day to work with, just in case. Like you though I rarely change the name unless there's some noticeable change. Great insight into JNH though, I see so much of myself in him - especially when he mentioned that he's a "melody guy", which is my absolute achilles when it comes to professional gigs.

 

I do something similar nowadays. Especially if I'm working late at night. You know, I probably have more project files than I do final "versions". So I don't know if those things would count in JNH's method, but many of those aren't quite finished, with sections of cues blank, etc. I, too, try to rely on melody as much as I can, though with some later projects I've had to start relying more on motifs and moods. I don't think I'm in the same wheelhouse as far as style as JNH, but I do respect him immensely. One of my favorites! I'm sure I could learn something from the way he works. If anything, for this particular situation, it's inspiration to just try things more. Anything! Try all the themes!

 

Indeed some great videos! I'd love to see more things like this with other composers as well. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I was humbled watching those videos of Howard. Hearing a seasoned pro talk about his insecurities like that is really inspiring. It always hurts when a cue is rejected, but the important thing is reacting to it with the attitude of getting it done.

[Phoenixius 6]

I agree with you; it's informative to hear what Howard's composing process is and his reasoning and thoughts of the themes. 

 

If I'm not mistaking the new cues would look something like this:

1m1 v.01? Main Titles Kowalski's Theme

1m1 v.14 Main Titles Kowalski's Theme (Circus version)

1m1 v.15 Main Titles Newt's Love/ Healing Theme

1m1 v.16 Main Titles Kowalski's Theme (Epic version)

1m1 v.21 Main Titles Thunderbird's Theme 

1m1 v.39 Main Titles

1m1 v.40 Main Titles

1m1 v.41 Main Titles Conspiracy Theme (Movie version)

 

Does anyone know what the themes are for 39 and 40? 

[TSMefford 1,509]

2 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

I was humbled watching those videos of Howard. Hearing a seasoned pro talk about his insecurities like that is really inspiring. It always hurts when a cue is rejected, but the important thing is reacting to it with the attitude of getting it done.

 

Indeed. It's great to hear that someone at his level still struggles with issues like that. At least in his case, as far as the rejected cues go, Yates was honest. I once had an End Credits cue I wrote that I was quite fond of, that they replaced without telling me. I would've gladly written something new if they'd asked, but instead they just tracked in something from earlier in the score.

 

20 minutes ago, Phoenixius said:

I agree with you; it's informative to hear what Howard's composing process is and his reasoning and thoughts of the themes. 

 

If I'm not mistaking the new cues would look something like this:

1m1 v.01? Main Titles Kowalski's Theme

1m1 v.14 Main Titles Kowalski's Theme (Circus version)

1m1 v.15 Main Titles Newt's Love/ Healing Theme

1m1 v.16 Main Titles Kowalski's Theme (Epic version)

1m1 v.21 Main Titles Thunderbird's Theme 

1m1 v.39 Main Titles

1m1 v.40 Main Titles

1m1 v.41 Main Titles Conspiracy Theme (Movie version)

 

Does anyone know what the themes are for 39 and 40? 

 

Wish I could tell you. I only have the cue list. Nothing else.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I think it needs to be said over and over - JNH's fantastic beasts score is an absolute masterpiece and 1 of the great scores of the past decade. It is an absolute triumph.

[Alex 2,833]

Definitely one of the best Harry Potter related choices Warner Brothers have made for a long, long time.

[Phoenixius 6]

On a related note, I assume most of you were informed in 2018 that all the Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts franchise related products were branded under the new official umbrella 'Wizarding World'. Fantastic Beasts: Crimes of Grindelwald was the first film in which the official logo was presented. See the opening (first 10 minutes) below:

 

 

Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them belongs also to the 'Wizarding World' umbrella of course, but the original movie doesn't have the WW logo.

 

 

Well, Warner Bros put it in there recently in the Movie Preview... Will this edited version become the new version, presented maybe on HBO MAX? 

 

 

I don't know about that. But what I do know is that the opening titles now loses it's effect; it doesn't synchronize with the music and I think it's unfortunate the logo's disappear in air. It's not like CoG and the other HP films with the camera through the logo's. 

If they want to extend the Opening Titles they should do it like CoG with more build up, camera through the logo's, maybe speed up the camera pan but not too fast and extend the Conspiracy Theme a bit. Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Chen G. 3,944]

On a side note to a side note, I never cared for the terminology "The Wizarding World" as the name for the franchise. It implies that the linking piece between the disparate films in the franchise is the setting of the Wizarding World, rather than anything to do directly with the plot, which to my mind tends to make the overall viewing experience rather uninteresting.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Talking about main titles, what would a JNH Harry Potter main titles sound like

 

 

[Phoenixius 6]

27 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Talking about main titles, what would a JNH Harry Potter main titles sound like

 

 

Wow, it does fit perfect I must say! 

[TSMefford 1,509]

6 hours ago, Phoenixius said:

 

Well, Warner Bros put it in there recently in the Movie Preview... Will this edited version become the new version, presented maybe on HBO MAX? 

 

 

I sure hope that is for the online use, only for the YouTube videos. There's literally no reason to sloppily add in that silly logo. Are they going to re-edit the Potter films and slap that logo on there as well?

[TSMefford 1,509]

On 5/23/2020 at 12:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

Talking about main titles, what would a JNH Harry Potter main titles sound like

 

 

 

Not half bad! Lol. Somehow I missed this.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Sounds generic as hell compared to Williams. 

[Edmilson 7,393]

I liked it. It's not Williams, but it fits the movie.

[TSMefford 1,509]

34 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Sounds generic as hell compared to Williams. 

 

Well of course. It's just a fun little idea. Obviously Williams' score is perfect.

[gkgyver 1,645]

58 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I liked it. It's not Williams, but it fits the movie.

 

That's what Lorne Balfe would say. 

[Jules 59]

If JNH ever moved on I wouldn't mind seeing Nicholas Britell take a stab at HP score. I think he'd do fantasy quite well.

[fommes 153]

I actually like the very first idea best, it sounds more like a prologue/intro cue (that fits with the images) while the others and the film version sound like they pasted a piece from another part of the film at the beginning.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Pardon my ignorance, maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of information, but in the video, JNH basically says that the main title was about the last thing he had to write, and he went through the rest of his score to find passages that he could use for it. 

Now, I may be way out of line, but if it's the last thing you need to to write, and the rest is basically done, why don't you write something original instead of, you know, lazily recycle from stuff you wrote for something else? 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Main titles are not one offs.

 

 Main title is typically the main theme of the film.

 

 That is how it worked in classic cinema. These days we don’t have 2-3 min main titles. More like 10-15 second main titles. So composers have to quickly state their main theme and move on.

 

i like jnh’s main title but I think it is a failure on his part that he couldn’t work his main theme into the main title. That’s one of the Reasons why his great main theme hasn’t achieved any popularity.

 

so I guess the answer to your question is tradition and unity, a structurally sound score will state the main theme up front and then build on it throughout the score.

 

edit: Also he did end up writing something original for it.

[TSMefford 1,509]

On 5/30/2020 at 9:08 PM, gkgyver said:

Pardon my ignorance, maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of information, but in the video, JNH basically says that the main title was about the last thing he had to write, and he went through the rest of his score to find passages that he could use for it. 

Now, I may be way out of line, but if it's the last thing you need to to write, and the rest is basically done, why don't you write something original instead of, you know, lazily recycle from stuff you wrote for something else? 

 

I mean...it's still an original rendition of one of those themes. I think he meant he went searching for material (themes, motifs, ideas) he could use for it. It's certainly not as easy as just lifting a few bars from another cue and pasting them in so I don't think that's what he was doing. While I think what he ended up was okay, I would've liked to hear the actual main theme presented in this moment, but it's such a short time frame and then you have to immediately transition to this dark scene. I kind of understand why they did it the way they did, but there's certainly other moments in the score that resonated with me more.

 

I wouldn't write something entirely new for the main title and have that never appear again. It'd be like if Hedwig's Theme was a one off. I assume that's not what you mean though.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

So this is what I think the main title should have been. With a haunting version of the main theme to introduce the main title - eerie, enigmatic, magical and something that awakens your curiosity.

 

 

It is a wondrous main theme. It really should be more famous. JNH should use it more in his score too!

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

So this is what I think the main title should have been. With a haunting version of the main theme to introduce the main title - eerie, enigmatic, magical and something that awakens your curiosity.

 

 

It is a wondrous main theme. It really should be more famous. JNH should use it more in his score too!

 

That's pretty nice. Unfortunately WB wouldn't have allowed him to NOT use Hedwig's Theme at the open because nostalgia. 

 

An actual legit note I'd say would also be to have a bigger swell or something during the logo, but I'm sure that could've been done.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

1 hour ago, TSMefford said:

 

That's pretty nice. Unfortunately WB wouldn't have allowed him to NOT use Hedwig's Theme at the open because nostalgia. 

 

An actual legit note I'd say would also be to have a bigger swell or something during the logo, but I'm sure that could've been done.

 

I thought of that. I think a compromise could have been the wizarding word logo up top with the first few notes of Hedwig on celeste. And then you transition into this.

 

And again, maybe conspiracy theory, but this bit from the second track so perfectly fits the duration required from the logo or title that it wouldn't surprise me if JNH tried a couple of versions without Hedwig's theme and this might have been one of them.

 

And your note about the logo is legit. I too think if it were the actual main title cue, they could have beefed up the orchestra a little bit to have it sound appropriately grand.

[Arpy 4,145]

Is it just me or is the opening just so-so? It does another Order of the Phoenix Newspaper Windows Movie Maker effect after a random scene of Grindelwald shooting people. The first sign something was wrong with the film and the series as a whole.

 

Props to JNH for going through that gruelling process, though. 

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

6 hours ago, Arpy said:

Is it just me or is the opening just so-so? It does another Order of the Phoenix Newspaper Windows Movie Maker effect after a random scene of Grindelwald shooting people. The first sign something was wrong with the film and the series as a whole.

 

Props to JNH for going through that gruelling process, though. 

 

 

I agree. You don't really understand what you're seeing or why. They show a bunch of random aurors getting attacked by some random dude and then tell us that it was Grindlewald right after along with a huge exposition dump of things that won't even make sense until later on in the film. It feels pointless. I get that they're trying to set up Grindlewald and the state of the world, but an actual scene or lengthier attack or a montage over a speech would've been far more engaging and driven the point home. Alternatively. Introduce the Grindlewald stuff throughout the film and just start with Newt after the logos.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

32 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

Alternatively. Introduce the Grindlewald stuff throughout the film and just start with Newt after the logos.

I like that idea.

It didn't have to be the biggest scale right from the start.

[Arpy 4,145]

A scene like the beginning of the second film perhaps, or what about Grindelwald using beasts for his nefarious cause, to like... you know... tie into the whole 'Fantastic Beasts' angle...

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

So... if JNH scored Buckbeak's Flight? I know you might think sacrilege since that is one of Williams' most famous cue but give it a listen with an open mind. I think had JNH scored that scene, he would have come up with something equally soaring and memorable.

 

 

 

This is scored with Newt's main theme.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Meh.