Who did you want to score LOTR?

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Does anyone remember how soon after LOTR was announced that we knew Shore was scoring? For those old enough to remember, when you first heard they were making the films, who did you want to see score?

 

And who else besides Shore do you think could have pulled it off? (NOT JW)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,267]

I don't think I really was following anything about the films apart from watching trailers and didn't really have any thoughts on who was scoring or anything.  I worked at a movie theater at the time so popped in and saw 20 minutes of FOTR and realized that it was a film I must see so quickly did, then quickly bought the OST.  I don't think I knew the name Howard Shore at all at the time.  I mean, of course I had seen films he'd score before, but seeing his name in FOTR didn't make me go "oh, the Seven and Silence of hte Lambs guy"

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

I remember loving the Braveheart score so much and wanting Horner to score it.  Of course that lasted about 15 minutes into the film.

 

I knew Shore nailed it the same scene I knew Jackson nailed it...the scene with Gandalf and Bilbo talking and Gandalf blows the smoke rings..."a night to remember."

[mstrox 6,637]

Junkie XL

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I was kinda hoping for Horner or Poledouris, since I didn't reckon Williams would do this.

 

Shore seemed like a completely unorthodox choice at the time. When Hitch asked me in 2001 in London who was scoring his response was "Oh no!"

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

35 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Shore seemed like a completely unorthodox choice at the time.

As did Jackson! But what beautiful music they made together.

 

Alas, like summer flowers, it was not meant to last.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A sapling was found and for a while it seemed to grow and blossom. But the light of the two trees could not be truly rekindled.

[crocodile 7,978]

Kilar. He seemed excited about this. This is from one article I wrote for FOW (translated from a Polish article):

 

I got this offer from Jackson and agreed. There are still some formal things to talk through. he would say back in mid-1999. I have to admit that for me, a symphonic composer, writing music to a production this big, on the size of Star Wars, is a massive challenge, but I happily took it on myself. He then proposed to tackle just the first film in the series, having being too busy at the time, but that wasn't agreeable to both parties and Kilar, often referring to himself as lazy, sighed with relief when the producers decided to look for someone else.

 

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,978]

Okay, okay. "Excited" is not the word.

 

Karol

[KK 3,307]

Kilar could have been interesting, if he was pushed to go for a more dynamic palette.

 

Heck, Shore's own work is not shy of Kilar-esque elements anyway.

[crocodile 7,978]

Well, if he could go back to his early concert works for a bit of inspiration?

 

 

Or even something bit newer:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FhliSj34kA

 

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

At the time, I don't think I had any favored choices for the job other than myself. 

 

Kilar's music is in a similar vein as Shore's, and he would have been the most interesting possible choice.  But I doubt anyone could have pulled off what Shore pulled off. 

[Incanus 5,713]

I just remember waiting for the announcement for the composer with great anticipation (and dread). I expected John Williams would not be scoring the trilogy so the secondary choices lined up with the rumored composers, Horner or Poledouris or Kilar. When Shore was attached I was certainly surprised, baffled and disappointed as most of what I had heard from the man was dark, brooding and near unlistenable to my tastes back then. He just didn't have the track record for this kind of fantasy scoring. I was very glad to be proven wrong very quickly.

 

I heard the OST prior to seeing the film and was quite impressed but as soon as I saw the film and specifically the prologue, when the History of the Ring theme came in with the title card, I knew this was something special and the whole movie and score further solidified it.

[toothless 963]

Mychael Danna !

[Kühni 485]

 

.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

None of them would have risen to the challenge the way Howie did though.

[Jim Ware 525]

21 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

Does anyone remember how soon after LOTR was announced that we knew Shore was scoring?

 

I believe Shore was confirmed around August 2000.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Kühni 485]

.

[mstrox 6,637]

I wanted Bernard Herrmann.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Wow, I had no idea this place had been around so long!

 

I'm embarrassed to say I had no idea who Howard Shore was at the time. I just remember listening to the FOTR soundtrack before I saw the film and mentally comparing it to what Rosenman did (which I liked), trying to match up the scenes based on the track names. And I was trying to figure out what "The Prophecy" was since I couldn't remember anything from the books about a prophecy.  Concerning Hobbits had me from the get go, and I can even remember the room I was in the first time I heard it. 

 

Now of course while I appreciate his main theme, parts of Rosenman's score sound alternatively harsh and bombastic to me. Though as I said the main theme always make me smile.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Kühni 485]

.

[mrbellamy 6,270]

22 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

I remember loving the Braveheart score so much and wanting Horner to score it.  Of course that lasted about 15 minutes into the film.

 

Interestingly Horner claimed in a Classic FM interview that he was actually offered it, or at least discussed it with Jackson, but his daughter had had a surgery or something. 

[KK 3,307]

34 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

What does 'The Prophecy' refer to?

 

It refers to the lore of the Rings, which opens the novel, and accordingly, the film:

 

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

 

The bolded lines are inscribed on the One Ring itself (as Kuhni points out above).

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Hmmmm, I've seen that mentioned before, but I never thought of the ring rhyme as a "prophecy"...more like lore.

[Jim Ware 525]

1 hour ago, Kühni said:

 

@Jim Ware Even more rummaging brought to light that you and I had our first online discussion on Filmtracks over a Babylon 5 episodic CD in February of 2001! http://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/main.cgi?read=19654

 

The IP address of my post shows that was sent from my hall of residence in my first year of university!  We may have corresponded earlier on moviemusic.com, but sadly those posts are lost to the ages.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

....like tears in the rain!

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

How can you tell the IP address of your post?

[Incanus 5,713]

10 hours ago, KK said:

 

It refers to the lore of the Rings, which opens the novel, and accordingly, the film:

 

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

 

The bolded lines are inscribed on the One Ring itself (as Kuhni points out above).

The lyrics for Propechy actually are a composite of original poetry by Philippa Boyens and Tolkien's poetry and prose from the novel. You can read the entire thing in Doug's book in his commentary on the Rarities Archives. The composition uses three different set of lyrics, The Prophecy, The Revelation of the Ringwraiths and The Battle of Dagorlad, and probably in the manner Shore uses all the choral and soloist lyrics in LotR, by selecting passages or even single words to set his music to and not using the entire thing:

 

The Prophecy
 

Yénillor morne

tulinte i quettar

Tercáno Nuruva.

 

Hlasta! Quetis 

Ilfirimain

 

'Out of the Black Years

come the words

[the] Herald of Death.

 

Listen! It speaks

To those who were not born to die (immortals=elves)

The Ringspell

 

These above passages contain snatches of lines from the book and are spoken by Gandalf in the chapter The Council of Elrond: 

Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed:

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them.

 

This is a reference to how the elvensmiths of Eregion heard Sauron uttering his last spell (the Ring Spell) to complete the One Ring and knew they had been betrayed by Annatar (Sauron in disguise) and took off their rings and hid them and thus thwarted his plan.

 

The Ring Spell or Verse of the Rings follows in Quenya, which is taken from the second set of lyrics, The Battle of Dagorlad.

Corma turien te
Corma tuvien
Corma tultien te
Huines se nutien.

 

And what actually gives the composition it's name is this second set of lyrics, The Battle of Dagorlad, which contains the Malbeth the Seer's words (a prophecy) from the novel although I am not sure if any of the below text apart from the Ring Spell is used. The lyrics in question contain more of less the below text in Quenya and in addition the Ring Spell in the same language, which I will not repeat here.

 

Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.
The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings
doom approaches. The Dead awaken;
for the hour is come for the oathbreakers:
at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again
and hear there a horn in the hills ringing.
Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them
from the grey twilight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.

 

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

On 10/6/2016 at 2:19 PM, Jim Ware said:

 

The IP address of my post shows that was sent from my hall of residence in my first year of university!  We may have corresponded earlier on moviemusic.com, but sadly those posts are lost to the ages.

They're not actually,  Ol' FishChip may have taken down the link from the homepage, but you can still access the old MM messageboard. E.g.:

http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/012530.html

 

Navigating through them and finding specific posts could be tedious, but they are there.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

Wasn't Horner first approached, but he couldn't do it, because his son was ill? At least, that's what I heard.

If that's  the case, how did Jackson arrive at the choice of Shore?

 

If you ask me (and you haven't), if JG had scored these films, it would probably not only go down in film history as the single greatest achievement by any composer, it would, also, have finally given him the wider public acclaim that he so richly deserved, but never got (not to mention being plastered all over Classic 'effin FM ).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Would Horner or Goldsmith devoted 3 years of their lives to this though? I somehow doubt it.

 

I think thats what PJ was looking for. Someone who was willing to put in the hours.

 

Also, Horner and Goldsmith would have been a lot more expensive.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

2 hours ago, Richard said:

 

If you ask me (and you haven't), if JG had scored these films, it would probably not only go down in film history as the single greatest achievement by any composer, it would, also, have finally given him the wider public acclaim that he so richly deserved, but never got (not to mention being plastered all over Classic 'effin FM ).

As it is, what Shore did is one of the single greatest achievements by any composer in history, eclipsed by only Williams and Star Wars. And it's hard to imagine JG surpassing that.  

 

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

It's the pinnacle of the art.  It's not eclipsed by anything, certainly not SW. 

[Wojo 2,453]

LOTR greatly eclipses Star Wars because FOTR was written from the onset to be the first of three parts. The musical continuity and foreshadowing are much greater than with the first installment of Star Wars, which would not have been continued as a saga if it had failed. I believe that Star Wars would have been the singular greatest waste of great themes if it had never garnered a sequel. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

6 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

As it is, what Shore did is one of the single greatest achievements by any composer in history, eclipsed by only Williams and Star Wars. And it's hard to imagine JG surpassing that.  

 

 

Of course it is. That's why on the AFI TOP 25 GREATEST SCORES, LOTR is precisely... nowhere.

STAR WARS, on the other hand, is at number...well, look it up 

Maybe I'm biased, but SW has been in my life for almost 40 years, while this other score(s) has been on the outer reaches of my radar for just over a third of that time.

Yes, I can imagine JG surpassing that. He would do it without even breaking a sweat. I imagine a hybrid of LEGEND, MASADA, and  ST:V. 

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

You're not only biased, you're wrong. 

 

Williams has written seven fine scores which are held together by some broad thematic strokes and equally broad stylistic traits.  Shore has written one score which is by leagues more thematically and motivically interconnected and organic, in an eminently consistent and singular idiom that, almost certainly, neither Williams nor Jerry, great as they are, would have been inclined to explore - one need only look at their output to surmise this (Jerry would be the more likely one to come up with something fresh) - and as any less singular approach wouldn't be nearly so tailor-made for the films, they would be far less successful and iconic.

 

Sure, Star Wars has been around longer and its a staple of popular culture, at least, the two big tunes are, and you can cite all the lists you want, but the discriminating mind and ear know what the real story is.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed. Shores LOTR is an almost singular work in film music.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

49 minutes ago, TheWhiteRider said:

You're not only biased, you're wrong. 

 

Williams has written seven fine scores which are held together by some broad thematic strokes and equally broad stylistic traits.  Shore has written one score which is by leagues more thematically and motivically interconnected and organic, in an eminently consistent and singular idiom that, almost certainly, neither Williams nor Jerry, great as they are, would have been inclined to explore - one need only look at their output to surmise this (Jerry would be the more likely one to come up with something fresh) - and as any less singular approach wouldn't be nearly so tailor-made for the films, they would be far less successful and iconic.

 

Sure, Star Wars has been around longer and its a staple of popular culture, at least, the two big tunes are, and you can cite all the lists you want, but the discriminating mind and ear know what the real story is.

 

Yeah? Well, that's just... like...your opinion, man.

 

It is you who are wrong...about a great many things.

LOTR has not earned its place at the top of the pile, and it never will.

Call it what you want, but it's no more than an anomaly; a blip on an otherwise solid, but unremarkable, career.

Don't ever misunderstand me: I like the scores (I wouldn't fork-out over £200 for the three CR boxes, if I didn't like the music), and I would never want to part with them, but they are exceptions to a body of work by a composer who is, essentially, an also-ran. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No. it's a fact.

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,490]

What we have here, is a failure to communicate.

End of the day, people can like both, or one, or neither. It's their choice. 

In the wholeness of space and time, and with so much shit of all sorts going on in the world, is it really of any use to get into a pissing contest about two scores?

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You know you are wrong!

[Quintus 5,399]

I remember praying for Williams to be the one, but after he was ruled out fairly early on in preproduction (basically by a lack of news) I had some hope it'd at least be Horner instead. So when Shore was finally announced I remember being genuinely gutted - disappointed that this awesome opportunity for potentially very rich musical landscaping and leitmotif characterisation was to be pretty much wasted on Howard Shore, who until that point I associated with The Fly and The Silence of the Lambs, two superb but rather niche sounding thriller soundtracks. "He's not got the range!" I thought at the time. "He ain't no tunesmith!" I complained. "Bah!" I exclaimed.. 

 

How wrong I was. The most happy I've been to be proven wrong in my life. Because boy did he deliver, and soooo much more than I ever imagined. Ultimately, his LotR work is the greatest and finest film scoring accomplishment I've ever heard. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes!