William's least restrained, most over-scored film ever?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I think for movie critics, half of his filmography might be the answer.

 

But I recently re-watched the film and I must say in Harry Potter 1, Williams just went ALL OUT. In the notes he says he was going for a theatrical tone and you get that sense, it is always full orchestra, big theme, big orchestration - and I personally absolutely love it and think it is outstanding. Any other film it would be certainly too much, but here, the film itself is a little bit flat. So it is Williams actually who picks up the slack and provides the movie with magic and scope and scale and majesty.

 

Some snippets of review

 

Moveiwave: " In the movie itself, the score is a bit of a nightmare.  It’s so loud, overbearing, bombastic and densely-orchestrated for its entire length that it completely overwhelms the film."

 

USA Today: "John Williams' overly insistent score lacks subtlety and bludgeons us with crescendos."

 

Variety: "Making matters much worse is Williams’ hyperactive, infernally busy musical score, which thunders over everything, never takes a rest and is completely uninterested in developing any emotional themes to evoke Harry’s inner life of parental longing. Half as much music would have been more than enough, at half the volume."

 

This is Williams in absolute showboat mode, just relentlessly showing off, not leaving a single moment to silence, and spinning themes and music for every single thing. And like I said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE it.

 

Any other examples of Williams over-scoring films?

[Alex 2,833]

It could be argued that JW over-scores most of his films, simple because of how complex his music is compared to other composers. 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Hook is sort of unbearable in this way. I like many Williams scores well enough, obviously, but the ones I'm most fond of are those where spotting was done tastefully and with discretion. Considering Spielberg's usual aesthetic, and the other major presences in Williams' career, that's a short list.

The first Potter is typically my first choice when I want to hear JW overdrive, though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hook, Temple Of Doom, 1941

[Thor 7,478]

1941 and JOHN GOLDFARB, PLEASE COME HOME would be my picks.

[King Mark 3,626]

Hook

[Richard Penna 3,675]

The first two Potters are definitely overscored. I think the music works fantastically on album in both cases, but when you put them against the images, it really hits you over the head.

 

The first scene that comes to mind is the chess game. I remember the buildup to Ron's piece being destroyed, which felt like a symphony orchestra was sitting right there in the room. Although I think part of the blame is Columbus, who I maintain was the wrong choice for this franchise. I'm sure I read somewhere that he insisted on the overblown ending to CoS, with others in the production team not as keen.

[crumbs 14,305]

His score for 1941 gives me a headache, just cannot stand more than a cue or two at a time (and can't think of anything worse than listening to it in complete form). But I think that's a reflection of the film if anything.

 

Comparatively, I could listen to Hook all day long!

[Bilbo 3,709]

7 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I think for movie critics, half of his filmography might be the answer.

 

But I recently re-watched the film and I must say in Harry Potter 1, Williams just went ALL OUT. In the notes he says he was going for a theatrical tone and you get that sense, it is always full orchestra, big theme, big orchestration - and I personally absolutely love it and think it is outstanding. Any other film it would be certainly too much, but here, the film itself is a little bit flat. So it is Williams actually who picks up the slack and provides the movie with magic and scope and scale and majesty.

 

Some snippets of review

 

Moveiwave: " In the movie itself, the score is a bit of a nightmare.  It’s so loud, overbearing, bombastic and densely-orchestrated for its entire length that it completely overwhelms the film."

 

USA Today: "John Williams' overly insistent score lacks subtlety and bludgeons us with crescendos."

 

Variety: "Making matters much worse is Williams’ hyperactive, infernally busy musical score, which thunders over everything, never takes a rest and is completely uninterested in developing any emotional themes to evoke Harry’s inner life of parental longing. Half as much music would have been more than enough, at half the volume."

 

This is Williams in absolute showboat mode, just relentlessly showing off, not leaving a single moment to silence, and spinning themes and music for every single thing. And like I said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE it.

 

Any other examples of Williams over-scoring films?

 

Did Variety not notice "Leaving Hogwarts or..."

 

 

i would also say HP1 but it's also one of my favourite JW scores.

 

 

it doesn't hurt the film in anyway IMO. If anything it makes it better. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Tinting 

The BFG

Hook 

1941

[Jay 37,322]

8 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

William's least restrained, most over-scored film ever?

 

Hook, I suppose.  And I freaking love every second of it.

 

Temple of Doom as well, and I freaking love every second of that too.

 

I dunno if 1941 is "overscored".... maybe in a way, its trying to overcome the shortcomings of the film, trying to make it the over the top comedy Spielberg wanted but..... its still not a terribly long score, with many scenes having no score at all, unlike Hook, TOD, or even ROTJ.

 

And Harry Potter 1 over-scored?  Come on!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Hook is certainly the obvious answer. Obvious because it's the right one.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The scores for 1941, Temple of Doom, Hook, Home Alone 2, and I'd even argue Return of the Jedi fit the bill of unrestrained, over-scored all-out Williams.

[Jay 37,322]

Hmmm yea, Home Alone 2 must be the longest and biggest comedy score of all time

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Counting the days until I can listen to "Christmas Star" from that one multiple times every day.  Decorum demands I wait until after Thanksgiving I guess.

[Loert 2,510]

5 hours ago, crumbs said:

His score for 1941 gives me a headache, just cannot stand more than a cue or two at a time (and can't think of anything worse than listening to it in complete form). But I think that's a reflection of the film if anything.

 

Comparatively, I could listen to Hook all day long!

 

That's funny, because for me Hook is the one that gives me a headache! Whilst I can appreciate some cues (The Ultimate War), some of his whimsy stuff is so fast and dazzling that it gives me vertigo. It is the definition of un-restrained!

 

1941, on the other hand, is one of my favourite album listening experiences by Williams (the original album). There was a period a few months ago where I listened to it over and over again for about 3 days straight. However, I have not seen the film. And after what I've heard about it, I don't intend to!

 

As for Temple of Doom, it fits the picture and I am grateful for every second of it. I mean, consider the fact that there are long sequences where it was clear that Spielberg intended the music to greatly support the film (opening credits [obviously], the trek, arriving at Pankot Palace, all of the action scenes..). It is almost a music video for Williams' music. So I wouldn't call it un-restrained, even though there is a lot of music.

 

Harry Potter 1 is pretty densely scored (both in terms of spotting and orchestration) but I suspect that this was partly because the music was trying to capture the fantastical/magical aspect of the story's setting. So it makes sense that the music is colourful and dazzling (though not quite as dazzling as Hook, thankfully). It's good music! I never felt like it had a negative impact on the film. 

 

6 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that he insisted on the overblown ending to CoS, with others in the production team not as keen.

 

That's my favourite part of the CoS score!

[Jilal 569]

What's the theme in your signature, @loert? I can't seem to recognize it.

[Loert 2,510]

5 minutes ago, Jilal said:

What's the theme in your signature, @loert? I can't seem to recognize it.

 

 

Occasionally I pick out themes I like from pieces I've heard (not necessarily by Williams) and place them in my signature.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Williams' least restrained and most over-scored films ever have a tendency to be GLORIOUS!

 

I very much like the first Harry Potter film (Chris Columbus did a pretty darn good job in my book) and the music is incredible.

I will not claim it is in any way subtle. But I wouldn't want it to be.

 

Likewise with Temple of Doom and Hook. Totally over-the-top and totally awesome.

 

What about Empire Strikes Back? That's pretty high up there too, no?

[Quintus 5,399]

I remember reading a British newspaper review of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone at the time which complained about the "overbearing" Hollywood score which, to paraphrase, "destroyed all sense of small magical English idiosyncrasy found in the novel". I remember thinking it was an objectively valid point. 

 

I never much got into his Potter contributions, but probably for different reasons (I have no interest in the fiction). 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

That critic probably liked Doyle's take much better.

[Jilal 569]

The theme already sounded great at the piano, but orchestrated that way, it's so cool! @loert

 

Sorry, can't quote posts for some reason. WP bug.

[Quintus 5,399]

Anyway, Always is a big offender for me. There is actually a whole side to JW's style, his oeuvre, which I just cannot abide. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The "broadway" side?

 

Yeah...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

3 hours ago, Quintus said:

Anyway, Always is a big offender for me. There is actually a whole side to JW's style, his oeuvre, which I just cannot abide. 

 

Right. Over-scored doesn't mean wall-to-wall.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I love Always!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The Adams material from Amistad. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

17 hours ago, alextrombone94 said:

It could be argued that JW over-scores most of his films, simple because of how complex his music is compared to other composers. 

 

I agree. It is his orchestration more than anything else which gives the impression of over-scoring.

9 hours ago, Jay said:

 

And Harry Potter 1 over-scored?  Come on!

 

The spotting isn't the problem. It's probably properly spotted. But look at this scene for example.

 

 

I understand for the final part of the sequence, with the big avalanche of letters, he chooses to go big. But watch the first few appearances of the owls and Harry looking at the first letter - the orchestra is basically swirling with criss-crossingly complex fast tempo runs, there is a flurry of notes and the melody is emphatically laid on top. Now one would say, a sequence of a single own flying in and a boy looking at a letter might be more modestly scored. Like with a celeste or something and build up to the big statement when the avalanche hits. But Williams is going all-out right from the first own and first letter.

 

I think the thing that saves Williams is just how bloody good his music is. Now even though the music for this scene is entirely too much, it is also absolutely outstanding. It draws attention to itself for its complexity but also impresses and pleases because of how blindingly dazzling it is. It is also more elaborately orchestrated than almost anything else in the movies, and specially not likely that you would here such dense and sophisticated orchestration in a children's film for a child picking up a letter.

 

But I love it. I think the critics like "invisible" music and Williams music is frankly very attention-drawing because it is almost too impressive for most scenes.

 

 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

HP1 has many (gloriously) overscored moments.  The dark fanfare for Hagrid opening the door, the chords of doom when Harry almost throws up, etc.  

[Corellian2019 384]

Empire of the Sun

[artguy360 1,843]

Its so strange to me to think that some reviewers did not like JW's HP1 score or felt that it was too heavy-handed. It is loud and dense and very present, but it's absolutely fitting and majestic and magical in all the ways I expect and want a Harry Potter score to sound.

 

I think Tintin did feel like it had some "beating you over the head" kind of moments with the score. But I didn't enjoy the movie that much overall and felt that the score was trying to provide what the film itself didn't.

[Red 75]

Hook is pretty much wall to wall music, but I don't think it's a bad thing. The music carries the film in a lot of ways and elevates it. It's a remnant of when the project existed as a possible musical for Spielberg. 

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

War Horse is pretty overscored, but somehow it fits the movie.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I've never found War Horse to be overscored.  It fit well with the aesthetic of the movie.  If anything, there's too much dialogue.  

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

War Horse is relatively restrained, few sweeping melodic crescendos, there are some but mainly during opening, plowing scene and then during the finale.  So these are earned moments, not Williams showboating.

A key image that would likely be typically be emphasized by music - the beautiful horizon silhouette image of the boy returning home - Williams actually scored with a soft piano solo.

So in War Horse, when Williams does go for grandeur, it is in moments that merit it.

 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

30 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I've never found War Horse to be overscored.  It fit well with the aesthetic of the movie.  If anything, there's too much dialogue.  

I only felt War Horse to be overscored in the opening scene and a few other scenes near the beginning of the movie. That opening scene cue in particular I will never understand. I think it's called Dartmoor. The music is so damn busy and loud, it stands out when compared to the peaceful landscape shots that it accompanies. When I saw that opening scene I honestly thought JW had really missed the mark on the score, but the rest of the score is much better.

[Quintus 5,399]

9 hours ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

 

Right. Over-scored doesn't mean wall-to-wall.

 

They are different things. And yet Always managed to be guilty of both.  

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Spielberg and Williams probably though the film needed help.

[Incanus 5,713]

6 hours ago, artguy360 said:

I only felt War Horse to be overscored in the opening scene and a few other scenes near the beginning of the movie. That opening scene cue in particular I will never understand. I think it's called Dartmoor. The music is so damn busy and loud, it stands out when compared to the peaceful landscape shots that it accompanies. When I saw that opening scene I honestly thought JW had really missed the mark on the score, but the rest of the score is much better.

I thought the opening pitch perfect with the flute solo but the busy music for Joey and the rest of the horses frolicing in the meadow that follows is too hyperactive for its own good. The opening third is a bit too overscored but the spotting improves during the rest of the film.

 

But the whole score makes for a brilliant listening experience because of its exuberant nature. I still consider Homecoming as one of the absolute classic JW end title tracks that has such wonderful flow and spirit to it as it spins from one theme to the next with such fluid ease.

[Quintus 5,399]

Agreed. I found his War Horse distracting. 

[A24 4,327]

Close Encounters, E.T. (especially towards the end), Hook, ... Yeah, most of his scores are overcooked.

 

 

More! More! MORE!!

 

 

 

[Incanus 5,713]

25 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

Close Encounters, E.T. (especially towards the end), Hook, ... Yeah, most of his scores are overcooked.

 

 

More! More! MORE!!

Of course we need more! More of the good stuff! Let's leave nondescript noodling to lesser composers!

[bollemanneke 3,338]

How is Hook overscored? I would say definitey HP1. The scene that immediately comes to mind is when Snape goes 'people will think you're up to something'. Even before the 'up to somethigng', the orchestra is doing WAY too much. Rickman's voice causes more than enough tension.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Romão 2,274]

There are some wonderful moments in Hook that I would consider restrained. The first half of Remembering Childhood and Farewell Neverland

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Loert 2,510]

29 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

How is Hook overscored? I would say definitey HP1. The scene that immediately comes to mind is when Snape goes 'people will think you're up to something'. Even before the 'up to somethigng', the orchestra is doing WAY too much. Rickman's voice causes more than enough tension.

 

On the other hand, the potion class scene has no music, which makes it very tensive (I guess Williams ran out of time? )

 

 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

5 hours ago, Quintus said:

They are different things. And yet Always managed to be guilty of both.  

 

I thought there were a number of music-free scenes, more so in the first act dealing with the forest fire where SS's going for a more naturalistic feel.

 

 

[A24 4,327]

2 hours ago, Romão said:

There are some wonderful moments in Hook that I would consider restrained. 

 

Only at JWfan!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I think the Hook score could be adapted into a Peter Pan ballet aimed at a mass audience (a la The Nutcracker).