What is the point of repeating concert arrangements on OSTs?

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I fully understand why they are used in the end credits. But what I just don't get is why you get them first separately and then AGAAIN in the end title suite. Why do we need two Duels of the Fates, Across the Stars, Double Troubles, Marches of the Resistance etc? I think that just the concert arrangement, or just the end title suite, would work much better on album.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

K

[Skelly 260]

Reprises can be fun to listen to if you're going through the entire program.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

7 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I fully understand why they are used in the end credits. But what I just don't get is why you get them first separately and then AGAAIN in the end title suite. Why do we need two Duels of the Fates, Across the Stars, Double Troubles, Marches of the Resistance etc? I think that just the concert arrangement, or just the end title suite, would work much better on album.

 

Double Trouble concert suite was sung. The one in the End Credits is just orchestral and entirely different and with the theme being parsed through multiple guises and statements and variations and stuff. It is rather tremendous. March is tacked on in the End credits but Rey's Theme again had a different version. So as long as its a different reading, it is most welcome. A copy paste is not welcome though.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I guess it was around the time of Return of the Jedi when Williams began largely tracking in sections of the concert themes in his end credits? There have been exceptions ever since, but prior to that, his credits were mostly original music.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

11 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Double Trouble concert suite was sung. The one in the End Credits is just orchestral and entirely different and with the theme being parsed through multiple guises and statements and variations and stuff. 

 

The choral version is also reprised later, sandwiched between "The Snowball Fight" and "The Knight Bus"

 

 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I can understand it from an "album listening experience" point of view.

But I cannot agree with it being a good idea. It is totally a TERRIBLE idea!

[Bespin 8,480]

Make the playlist you want and stop complaining!

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I'm not complaining, I'm asking.

[Jay 37,287]

It's jut something JW and a few other composers like to do.  They think it makes for a nice listening experience, and I'm sure to many it does.

Of course, its very easy for one to make their own personal playlist that doesn't contain them.

[Bespin 8,480]

The concert suites are always among my favorite parts in a JW soundtrack album.

[Skelly 260]

It's certainly an antiquated practice. Now that we can go to our favorite track with a click, reprisals just seem so superfluous.

[Bespin 8,480]

A "Concert suite" track is never really reprised "exactly" the same way in and "End Credit" suite... where the suites are usually rearranged to mix together.... Well, except when the composer didn't have time and actually pasted his concert suites one after another in the End Credits Suite. Like in those prequels...

[Jay 37,287]

3 minutes ago, Bespin said:

A "Concert suite" track is never really reprised "exactly" the same way in and "End Credit" suite... where the suites are usually rearranged to mix together.... Well, except when the composer didn't have time and actually pasted his concert suites one after another in the End Credits Suite. Like in those prequels...

 

March of the Resistance is.

[Bespin 8,480]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

March of the Resistance is.

 

Well didn't I say that Ol' John is losing the hand sometimes?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

35 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

March of the Resistance is.

The one in the End Credits on the OST is vastly abridged, which suits me just fine.

It makes sense to have the theme in the End Credits, but by being abridged there and joined with other music instead,

it ends up being different enough from the actual Concert Suite for me.

This is actually the reason why on my personal extended version of The Force Awakens, I still use the OST version of that track instead of the extended FYC one.

[Incanus 5,713]

John Williams is usually very meticulous with his album arranging and wants to create a varied listening experience. He often gives the listener a kind of "road map" to the score by presenting the theme or themes at the start half of the album and then arranging the rest as a programme which is chosen to be varied for maximum aural interest for the listener. Then of course he likes to give the final rendition of the theme in the formal end title suite or reprise of the concert arrangement to finish off the album.

 

I don't personally think it is inconvenient these days when you can easily create your own playlists but at times I as a big JW fan think our maestro just wasted precious disc space he could have used to present another new cue from the film (5 minute Raiders March concert arrangement on the KotCS album and then presenting us with a chopped in half Jungle Chase and Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban end credits come to mind).

[Faleel 5,340]

I am fine with both if the CS is different enough, Even a different open and close is enough for me.

1 hour ago, Bespin said:

A "Concert suite" track is never really reprised "exactly" the same way in and "End Credit" suite... where the suites are usually rearranged to mix together.... Well, except when the composer didn't have time and actually pasted his concert suites one after another in the End Credits Suite. Like in those prequels...

Uh, the concert suites from TPM are edited from the end credits, not the other way around, AOTC has a totally different ending and and unreleased or unrecorded middle section. ROTS is the only one that has that kind of copypaste, Battle of the Heroes is a Concert Arrangement of Revenge of Sith, which is pasted in the OST version of the credits along with Leia's theme and The Throne Room.

[Jilal 569]

It's one of the several ways to present a score in an arch structure, which is very common as a means of presenting ideas in a circular way. In rhetoric, for example, the idea presented at the beginning of a speech is often hinted at near the end of the speech. A more musical example is basic ternary form (ABA or ABA').

[mrbellamy 6,272]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

March of the Resistance is.

 

They're different performances, though, from what I can tell. The end credits version is slightly faster and as Pieter said an abridged arrangement, though I guess that could be an edit.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Well bollemanneke established in some other thread that he hates when any melody is repeated, ever.

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

11 minutes ago, Jilal said:

It's one of the several ways to present a score in an arch structure, which is very common as a means of presenting ideas in a circular way. In rhetoric, for example, the idea presented at the beginning of a speech is often hinted at near the end of the speech. A more musical example is basic ternary form (ABA or ABA').

 

Ah, yes... The Ring Theory...

[Jilal 569]

Just now, BloodBoal said:

Ah, yes... The Ring Theory...

 

Yeah, I thought it'd ring a bell.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The Ring Theory is strong with JWFAN... We shouldn't fight it, we should embrace it.

[Skelly 260]

53 minutes ago, Incanus said:

... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban end credits come to mind).

 

I'm not sure if we're missing out on anything by having "Mischief Managed!" included on that disc. That soundtrack as a whole runs 68 minutes, leaving about 12 more before the disc would have reached capacity. I think he just ran out of stuff he really felt belonged on the program, and slapped together that suite.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

1 minute ago, Skelly said:

 

I'm not sure if we're missing out on anything by having "Mischief Managed!" included on that disc. That soundtrack as a whole runs 68 minutes, leaving about 12 more before the disc would have reached capacity. I think he just ran out of stuff he really felt belonged on the program, and slapped together that suite.

 

How about, I don't know, include the Shrieking Shack cue? At least that would have given a chance for Pettigrew's thmee to be featured on the album!

[Jilal 569]

4 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

How about, I don't know, include the Shrieking Shack cue? At least that would have given a chance for Pettigrew's thmee to be featured on the album!

 

No, it would have been edited out.

[Skelly 260]

10 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

How about, I don't know, include the Shrieking Shack cue? At least that would have given a chance for Pettigrew's thmee to be featured on the album!

 

Yeah, that theme's omission is weird. Although I'm 98 percent sure it was only tracked into the Shrieking Shack sequence (from the night corridor scene).

[Jay 37,287]

Skelly is correct.

 

You would need to put a different cue on the OST (like the one where Mr. Weasley talks to Harry, or the one where Harry uses the map in the hallways at night) to include that theme on the OST properly.

[Alex 2,833]

Mischief Managed starts off so well until he starts pasting bits on. I love the orchestral version of Double Trouble, especially the violin (?) counterpoint.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Just to clarify, I never said I hated every form of repetition. I said that I hate literal repetition immediately after a first rendition. JW never does that.

[oierem 151]

1 hour ago, alextrombone94 said:

Mischief Managed starts off so well until he starts pasting bits on. I love the orchestral version of Double Trouble, especially the violin (?) counterpoint.

It is a great suite that lasts 6 minutes: Double trouble variations, Past theme (which was originally written for the end credits and then pasted into an earlier track in the CD) leading up to the reprise of Buckbeack's flight.

 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

That's the City of Prague recording you are referring to. The original OSt cue has loads of literal cue repetitions after that.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Just to clarify, I never said I hated every form of repetition. I said that I hate literal repetition immediately after a first rendition. JW never does that.

 

I stand corrected!

[Skelly 260]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

Skelly is correct.

 

You would need to put a different cue on the OST (like the one where Mr. Weasley talks to Harry, or the one where Harry uses the map in the hallways at night) to include that theme on the OST properly.

 

The irony is that it's not even really a theme for Pettigrew. It's just a general "danger/evil" theme, the same way "Double Trouble" is a general theme for Hogwarts. But since it was tracked into the Shack sequence from another scene with Scabbers/Pettigrew, everyone associates it with him.

 

4 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

That's the City of Prague recording you are referring to. The original OSt cue has loads of literal cue repetitions after that.

 

Yeah, I much prefer the end credits suite to "Mischief Managed". It even has a little bit from the "Rescue of Sirius" cue which of course is a big plus.

[artguy360 1,843]

I think the concert arrangements deserve their own track on an album and sometimes are different than the version featured in the end credits suite. Also, the concert arrangements are of major themes that play throughout the OST so having the concert arrangements on their track, often early in the album prepares the listener for the thematic material throughout the OST and makes for a more satisfying listening experience.

[Faleel 5,340]

Basically like Legend on a map or list

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

27 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

Having the concert arrangements on their track, often early in the album prepares the listener for the thematic material throughout the OST and makes for a more satisfying listening experience.

 

 

 

That's a great point. Hadn't thought about it like that. 

[Incanus 5,713]

1 hour ago, artguy360 said:

I think the concert arrangements deserve their own track on an album and sometimes are different than the version featured in the end credits suite. Also, the concert arrangements are of major themes that play throughout the OST so having the concert arrangements on their track, often early in the album prepares the listener for the thematic material throughout the OST and makes for a more satisfying listening experience.

Yes as I said the themes presented early on the disc give a sort of "thematic road map/guide" to the score as a whole. Which is what I am completely fine with.

 

Then again giving Hymn to the Fallen at the start of the SPR album was an odd choice as it works so much better as the great finale that you reach emotionally at the end of the score, something everything is building towards. Especially since it is an entirely singular piece with very little direct thematic connection to the rest of the score.

 

8 hours ago, Skelly said:

 

I'm not sure if we're missing out on anything by having "Mischief Managed!" included on that disc. That soundtrack as a whole runs 68 minutes, leaving about 12 more before the disc would have reached capacity. I think he just ran out of stuff he really felt belonged on the program, and slapped together that suite.

The whole opening part of the suite is fine up until the Window to the Past ends when they tack on tracks already on the album to the end of the suite to cover the lengthy end credits roll. Literally repeating much of the opening half of the album verbatim. This space could have been used better, much better, by including other material from the score as it is still chock-full of great cues. E.g. a few of the Window to the Past theme renditions from the film would have been nice to hear sprinkled throughout the album.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We could have had Pettigrew's theme, man!

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

10 minutes ago, Incanus said:

Then again giving Hymn to the Fallen at the start of the SPR album was an odd choice as it works so much better as the great finale that you reach emotionally at the end of the score, something everything is building towards.

 

I think someone said this about Episode 2 as well. That having Across the Stars right at the beginning kinda diluted its impact in the rest of the score. So the concert version of that theme goes just all  out, with full majesty and grandeur, taking it into unabashed romanticism, it just takes flight and becomes this sweeping melodic statement.

 

To the extent that such presentations could rarely be made in the film itself (without seeming overscored). So film statements would never reach the heights of a concert suite. So if you present the concert suite at the beginning, you are in essence blowing your load too early. 

 

Whereas if you place it at the conclusion, you listen to the all the statements within the score (which are of course surrounded by underscore) and then arrive at this finale, this high-point, where it is just the theme finally set free and taking flight.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

29 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I think someone said this about Episode 2 as well. That having Across the Stars right at the beginning kinda diluted its impact in the rest of the score. So the concert version of that theme goes just all  out, with full majesty and grandeur, taking it into unabashed romanticism, it just takes flight and becomes this sweeping melodic statement.

 

To the extent that such presentations could rarely be made in the film itself (without seeming overscored). So film statements would never reach the heights of a concert suite. So if you present the concert suite at the beginning, you are in essence blowing your load too early. 

 

Whereas if you place it at the conclusion, you listen to the all the statements within the score (which are of course surrounded by underscore) and then arrive at this finale, this high-point, where it is just the theme finally set free and taking flight.

 

I agree, and this is why I think the concert suites work really well on TFA with their placement. "Rey's Theme" comes after her initial introduction, then is used as a kind of "intermission" as the musical narrative kicks up a notch and she leaves Jakku. The best statements of her theme come right in the last track, and it feels like a true climax and resolution. Same with March of the Resistance; we get its first proper introduction in "Han and Leia", then BAM right into the concert track (though I reckon the theme was underused in the film) and the rest of the story.

Good stuff.

[oierem 151]

5 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I think someone said this about Episode 2 as well. That having Across the Stars right at the beginning kinda diluted its impact in the rest of the score. So the concert version of that theme goes just all  out, with full majesty and grandeur, taking it into unabashed romanticism, it just takes flight and becomes this sweeping melodic statement.

 

To the extent that such presentations could rarely be made in the film itself (without seeming overscored). So film statements would never reach the heights of a concert suite. So if you present the concert suite at the beginning, you are in essence blowing your load too early. 

 

Whereas if you place it at the conclusion, you listen to the all the statements within the score (which are of course surrounded by underscore) and then arrive at this finale, this high-point, where it is just the theme finally set free and taking flight.

 

Very true.

Across the Stars is a very good example of what you say, because the use of the theme through the movie is very intelligent, naturally becoming the main theme without using it too much (the theme is not heard in the first 30 minutes of the film, nor for another 30 minute segment after the leave Naboo) and saving the grand statements for the last section of the film. For example, I hadn't realized that the "bridge" section of the theme is never used in the film until the Arenea scene (because there weren't any "long" statements of the theme before that) and it's only used twice in the whole movie.

In that sense, the end credits/concert version works as a conclussion to the "musical journey", and placing the concert suite at the beginning of the CD is spoiling it entirely. The same can be said about many other great concert suites.

I'm sure there's a commercial aspect in the decission to place those tracks early in the CD. Most listeners don't have the patience to listen to the whole thing and they want to find the "highlights" early, or they won't buy the CD.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

16 hours ago, Bespin said:

The concert suites are always among my favorite parts in a JW soundtrack album.

 

So, Bes...are you saying that you'd rather hear the concert version of FOREST BATTLE, than the film version?

[Richard Penna 3,671]

JW's practice of putting the exact same track on twice particularly annoys me. The first instance of Hymn to the Fallen is useless IMO.

 

Although in that case it's not taking the place of original material. It does however give me a rather pretentious feel to the album, as I rarely listen to albums as albums, but rather in clumps.

 

Where I do include bonus/concert cues, I just put them at the end.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's all about the money! Filling up a CD without having to pay extra reuse fees! Johnny is all about making himself an extra buck!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's takin' the piss!

[Loert 2,510]

27 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

It's more of a "OK, so here are the themes you will hear throughout this score and, so you know what they represent" logic than a "Oh, OK, you won't have the patience to listen to the whole album, so, here, we're giving you the best bits at the beginning so that you can easily stop playing the CD if you're bored after that" logic.

 

There are some cases where this initial presentation of themes like this backfires a bit (at least for me). For example, I've never liked the placement of the "Theme from Jurassic Park" track on the JP album. I know it's there so that people who only want to listen to the main theme can listen to the main theme without searching extensively for it. But whenever I listen to the album, I always skip that track, because for me the only possible entrance of the Island theme is its entrance in the "Journey to the Island" track. When that theme kicks in, with all the timpani and cymbals and big chords, it's clear that we're journeying to the island. I feel like I've just lift off from the ground in that helicopter and am on my way to Jurassic Park. Then the Dinosaur theme leads naturally from there. On the other hand, putting the Island theme before "Journey to the Island" on the album (and after the Dinosaur theme, no less) makes absolutely no sense to me. You're not at the island before you get to the island, and you don't see the dinosaurs unless you're on the island in the first place! And even then, if they're going to put these themes all at the beginning of the album, at least put it before "Opening Titles", because that creepy intro was conceived to lead in to "Incident at Isla Nublar"!

 

Honestly, I do appreciate that soundtrack albums are often shifted around to create a better listening experience overall, but the order of tracks still has to have some sense within the context of the film, as that's part of the listening experience. In my opinion I think all the tracks should be in chronological order (as they appear in film), the question only being which tracks to include. And any concert suites should be dumped all at the beginning or all at the end of a CD.