What is the point of repeating concert arrangements on OSTs?

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

7 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

I agree, and this is why I think the concert suites work really well on TFA with their placement. "Rey's Theme" comes after her initial introduction, then is used as a kind of "intermission" as the musical narrative kicks up a notch and she leaves Jakku. The best statements of her theme come right in the last track, and it feels like a true climax and resolution. Same with March of the Resistance; we get its first proper introduction in "Han and Leia", then BAM right into the concert track (though I reckon the theme was underused in the film) and the rest of the story.

Good stuff.

Indeed motr is underused in the film. I however hope it has a long life as the Resistance plays a larger role in the story.

[oierem 151]

23 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

I doubt it. I think a more reasonable explanation is that Williams likes to present the main thematic ideas of the score at the beginning of the album, as some sort of overture, before delving into the actual musical program, where these themes will be used extensively.

It's more of a "OK, so here are the themes you will hear throughout this score and, so you know what they represent" logic than a "Oh, OK, you won't have the patience to listen to the whole album, so, here, we're giving you the best bits at the beginning so that you can easily stop playing the CD if you're bored after that" logic.

 

Well, of course that's one of the main reasons. But it's not a coincidence that most of the greatests "hit" tracks, including all concert suites, are located in the first half of the CD ("Anakin's Betrayal", for example), and that the second half of many albums are less musically atractive for the average listener (Indy 4, Harry Potter 3...).

[Disco Stu 15,495]

7 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

I agree, and this is why I think the concert suites work really well on TFA with their placement. "Rey's Theme" comes after her initial introduction, then is used as a kind of "intermission" as the musical narrative kicks up a notch and she leaves Jakku. The best statements of her theme come right in the last track, and it feels like a true climax and resolution. Same with March of the Resistance; we get its first proper introduction in "Han and Leia", then BAM right into the concert track (though I reckon the theme was underused in the film) and the rest of the story.

Good stuff.

 

 

I agree with a lot of this, but shoving "Rey's Theme" in between "Follow Me" and "The Falcon" was a bad choice.  I've often programmed it to come after "The Falcon" and I think it works much better. Those two tracks should flow one into the other ("Follow Me" and "The Falcon" I mean).

[Incanus 5,713]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

 

 

I agree with a lot of this, but shoving "Rey's Theme" in between "Follow Me" and "The Falcon" was a bad choice.  I've often programmed it to come after "The Falcon" and I think it works much better. Those two tracks should flow one into the other ("Follow Me" and "The Falcon" I mean).

Agreed!

[TownerFan 4,983]

Film score nerds usually put too much thought into these things. I just enjoy the music. I don't think too much about the container, I prefer to focus on the content instead. Of course I have my own preferences in terms of ways of listening, but for me things like these are minutiae, not substantia  

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Pieter Boelen 740]

This is quite a good conversation here! Quite insightful with a lot of excellent points made.

I was going to mention the far better placement of the concert suites on the TFA OST, but Docteur Qui already made that point.

So thanks for saving me the trouble!

 

My own personal preference is to put the listening experience above a pure chronological presentation.

But to maintain the thematic development that is so important to a film score, I do think a near-chronological presentation is often the best.

 

As an example, I reckon concert suites are quite awesome, but ideally they should come AFTER their theme's introduction in the score.

So if there is intentionally only a hint early in the score, that development is not hurt by having a full-fledged suite prior to it.

 

On the other hand, I don't quite like a lot of short tracks, so I don't mind some being combined if they fit well together musically.

A good example would be "You Are the Pan" from Hook, which I think works very well as a single track.

It does feature music from two separate scenes, but that music also sounds very similar and flows well together.

 

For the same reason, if tracks are joined that in the film have a pause between them, that is also fine by me if they fit well together.

"Finn's Confession" for example features Rey's Theme in both the short bit underscoring the arrival at Takodana and the separate " You Got A Name" track.

So that also works fine as a single piece instead of a very short "stinger" and another track afterwards.

 

Swapping the order of two tracks can also improve the experience. "Hook-Napped" for example as the action bit first and the creepy stuff later.

To me, that tells the story of the film: First the kidnapping and the "scary" music illustrates the consequences of that kidnapping.

Even though in the film, it is actually the other way around.

 

"No Man's Land" from War Horse is another good one, but for the exact opposite reason.

The creepy music in that track is fairly good , but doesn't stand out to me as being particularly great.

In the film it underscores a scary scene after the mad dash. Yet with the order reversed, it builds an unease atmosphere at the beginning instead.

And by doing that, the impact of the action music afterwards is much increased.

 

As for the concert suites themselves, obviously they're great and I very much DO want them.

What I don't want is to have the exact same music twice on the same album.

If the end credits contain the concert suites, then the concert suites might as well be separate tracks at the end of the album.

This is the way I set up my personal extended Harry Potter scores, for example.

 

For the concert suites to play earlier, I reckon they should be at least somewhat different from their end credits versions.

I figure this was done quite well on TFA as the those end credits contain only short and abridged excerpts of the suites that flow well together.

Plus it has a lot of new content, such as arguably the best rendition of Rey's Theme,

the dual playing of Finn's and Poe's themes and the Rey/Force Theme combination.

While March of the Resistance is quite similar to the end credits, the suite itself has a brilliant bridge not reprised for the OST credits.

Therefore I figure the separate suite AND the credits have their own merits and I'm fine with having them both.

 

On the other hand, Mischief Managed is quite pointless as it contains verbatim copies of almost entire OST tracks.

The first half is great though, but I wished it had a more unique second half not heard elsewhere on the album.

 

3 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I agree with a lot of this, but shoving "Rey's Theme" in between "Follow Me" and "The Falcon" was a bad choice.  I've often programmed it to come after "The Falcon" and I think it works much better. Those two tracks should flow one into the other ("Follow Me" and "The Falcon" I mean).

Very true. Though in my case, I put it before because "That Girl with the Staff" also features Rey's Theme and it seems to be a bit much to have it twice after each other.

Plus after "Rey Meets BB-8", "I Can Fly Anything" and "Finn's Trek", it is about time to let that glorious theme play again.

And it serves as a bit of "the silence before the storm" as well as all hell breaks loose basically right after.

That's just my own personal reasoning though.

[Bespin 8,480]

6 hours ago, Richard said:

 

So, Bes...are you saying that you'd rather hear the concert version of FOREST BATTLE, than the film version?

 

You are referencing to the cue called "The lightsaber/Ewok battle"? (I always hated those mergings...)

 

The concert Suite is indeed THE thing, even if it's not my favorite SW Theme...

 

In fact, anything with Ewoks...  I usually fall alseep when they appears in the movie. Maybe it's the "brrrrrrr" sound!

[Faleel 5,342]

I like to place Concert Suites somewhere in the middle like Intermission/Entr Acte music

[Pieter Boelen 740]

6 hours ago, Richard said:

 

So, Bes...are you saying that you'd rather hear the concert version of FOREST BATTLE, than the film version?

I most certainly would.

The concert version does a pretty good job of taking a relatively good but not brilliant action track and expanding it to become a GREAT piece of music.

By comparison, the film version does feel to me to be slightly lacking.

 

It being merged with "The Lightsaber" doesn't do it any favours either.

That track never managed to really hold my interest and doesn't fit very well with what follows as far as I'm concerned.

 

12 minutes ago, Fennel Ka said:

I like to place Concert Suites somewhere in the middle like Intermission/Entr Acte music

Like they did with the Star Wars Special Edition soundtracks? That indeed tends to work pretty well. I quite like that, especially for Star Wars.

I'm a bit conflicted on Duel of the Fates though. Normally a theme would have had its introduction by the halfway mark. But not that one.

One option would be to have it only in the End Credits, but I have the (nearly) orchestra-only version there instead which I like for being quite different.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

29 minutes ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

I most certainly would.

 

Strange child.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

9 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

Strange child.

And proud of it!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

#Don't go changing...#

[Richard Penna 3,676]

5 hours ago, loert said:

 

There are some cases where this initial presentation of themes like this backfires a bit (at least for me). For example, I've never liked the placement of the "Theme from Jurassic Park" track on the JP album.

......

 

 

I actually hate the construction of the JP album. The suite format doesn't bother me - it's the bizarre ordering, and inclusion of two pointless tracks ('Theme from...' and 'End Credits').

[Faleel 5,342]

"Theme from" is worth it for that flute solo in the opening, but I agree with you on End Credits

[Richard Penna 3,676]

Nah, that opening doesn't justify the whole track IMO.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

9 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

 

I agree with a lot of this, but shoving "Rey's Theme" in between "Follow Me" and "The Falcon" was a bad choice.  I've often programmed it to come after "The Falcon" and I think it works much better. Those two tracks should flow one into the other ("Follow Me" and "The Falcon" I mean).

 

Fair enough, though I've never had a problem with that. Might be because of how fondly I look back on those first few weeks listening to the OST and how enjoyable the album experience still is for me.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

23 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

Fair enough, though I've never had a problem with that. Might be because of how fondly I look back on those first few weeks listening to the OST and how enjoyable the album experience still is for me.

 

Oh for sure, I've listened to the OST all the way through upwards of a hundred times and I'd say the majority of those listens were exactly as the album is presented.  But it's fun to change things up now and again

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

25 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Frankly, I find the TFA album program to be pretty excellent. Apart from that one thing mentioned above (the placement of Rey's Theme in between Follow Me and The Falcon), I have no problem whatsoever with it. It's a very rare occasion when, after having seen the film, I still am completely satisfied with an OST release (nothing major missing, well arranged program, etc.)

 

Well, maybe I would replace the March Of The Resistance track with the The Resistance one found on the FYC, and place it right after Kylo Ren Arrives At The Battle (with the complete March Of The Resistance concert suite inserted in the end credits track) or simply move the March Of The Resistance track there instead, but it's only if I feel like nitpicking. It's a damn fine program as it is!

 

With that post I have a feeling that you like this score?!?! or am I wrong?

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The TFA OST is a very well assembled album!

[Jay 37,323]

It really is

[Incanus 5,713]

8 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Frankly, I find the TFA album program to be pretty excellent. Apart from that one thing mentioned above (the placement of Rey's Theme in between Follow Me and The Falcon), I have no problem whatsoever with it. It's a very rare occasion when, after having seen the film, I still am completely satisfied with an OST release (nothing major missing, well arranged program, etc.)

 

Well, maybe I would replace the March Of The Resistance track with the The Resistance one found on the FYC, and place it right after Kylo Ren Arrives At The Battle (with the complete March Of The Resistance concert suite inserted in the end credits track) or simply move the March Of The Resistance track there instead, but it's only if I feel like nitpicking. It's a damn fine program as it is!

Agreed. It is a really well assembled album.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jilal 569]

3 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Did I ever say i didn't like it?

 

Are you drunk again? Sorry, I mean: are you sober again?

 

Less drunk seems like a less insulting alternative. I mean, @hornist, sober? Never.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

True.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I was just interested.

 

[Thor 7,478]

Haven't read through this thread, but I've always thought this is a great idea. It creates a sort of sonata form of the whole piece (home-away-home again), crafting it into a symphony-style concept idea. Or the first appearance becomes like an overture. It doesn't feel like superflous repetition to me.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I can certainly see the advantages to it that Thor points out.

But I do reckon that same purpose to be served even better if the reprise at the end is somehow "more developed" compared to the one at the beginning of the album.

Ideally the opening version can be a short and undeveloped version with the final one being much extended.

Though a short addition would also work. But having them identical is really the least impressive option.

[oierem 151]

16 minutes ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

I can certainly see the advantages to it that Thor points out.

But I do reckon that same purpose to be served even better if the reprise at the end is somehow "more developed" compared to the one at the beginning of the album.

Ideally the opening version can be a short and undeveloped version with the final one being much extended.

Though a short addition would also work. But having them identical is really the least impressive option.

 

A perfect example of what you say is Hedwig's theme, presented in a short version at the beginning of the album ("Prologue") and in an extended concert suite at the end ("Hedwig's theme"), which includes new developments never heard before in the album.

[artguy360 1,843]

On 10/28/2016 at 4:43 AM, Richard Penna said:

JW's practice of putting the exact same track on twice particularly annoys me. The first instance of Hymn to the Fallen is useless IMO.

 

Although in that case it's not taking the place of original material. It does however give me a rather pretentious feel to the album, as I rarely listen to albums as albums, but rather in clumps.

 

Where I do include bonus/concert cues, I just put them at the end.

To me the purpose of Hymn to the Fallen as a piece of music is to honor WWII veterans and JW wanted to start the OST with this piece to honor real veterans before delving into the dramatic score for the fictional narrative and then ending back with his tribute to real veterans. At least that's how I've always thought of the SPR OST.