#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Acknowledgements to Quintus for this topic idea. We were talking about how a film or a certain scene can be considered iconic when the film opens. But fades in relative obscurity very fast while some linger on and actually become common touch stones of a certain era in film history. Pulp Fiction and LA Confidential are both brilliant films. Both critically showered with heaps of praise when they were released. But one is now regarded as one of the seminal films of it's particular decade. A real zeitgeist film if you will, while the other, while the other no longer seems to have the status it once has, while still being a masterpiece of a film. The Artist, the critics darling of 2011 seems all but forgotten now. Even the hugely praised and debated Brokeback Mountain is now mostly remembered because of the many jokes it inspired. Why do some films become cultural touchstones while other do not? It doesnt seem to have anything to do with the quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Brokeback Mountain is still one of my favorite movies of this century. Best Picture was stolen from it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 An example given to me by our fellow member Lee. The train station scene in The Untouchables. It used to be considered iconic. Is it still that well remembered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I didn't ask for an example, I asked for a definition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 Definition of iconic 1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of an icon 2a : widely recognized and well-established <an iconic brand name>b : widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence <an iconic writer><a region's iconic wines> iconically \-ni-k(ə-)lē\ adverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 29 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Why do some films become cultural touchstones while other do not? It doesnt seem to have anything to do with the quality. 6 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Definition of iconic 1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of an icon 2a : widely recognized and well-established <an iconic brand name>b : widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 I gave you a dictionary definition Alvar. I didnt say I agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,472 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 "Iconic" or "cult" doesn't always mean "popular success". And I think that's a generational thing. I'm from the X generation. My "cult" movies are not the same than the "cult" movies of boomers. Anyway, that's very subjective, what is "cult" and what is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,488 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 Isnt that precisely the point of the thread though? But thank you for pointing out the bleedin' obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, Richard said: So: iconic = originality. Wut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 The Matrix is an iconic film, right? Star Wars certainly is. Neither can claim to be truly original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,472 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 If it's in The Simpsons, it's iconic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantus Venti 13 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 In the same way that a soundtrack can be viewed as better simply because it was in a good film or TV show, for instance, Twin Peaks music is not really that great but it stirs a lot of commotion due to the interesting context people attribute the music with, I think people attach extra meaning and context onto movies based on ie. friends, memories, what social reps say, "trends," for example: when can we ever say a certain era had the best music and clothes, as it may have had the worst style and sound of any era, and we look back on it to say what was I doing, but alas. Everyone went along with it because it was big news, it was just the timing of it, what "happened" to be the case due to some random chain of occurrences. In the same sense, why can such bad movies, games, books, etc be remembered, and yet really good ones nobody has even tried or knew existed? It comes down to people with bad taste, and the reason for this is not the inability to recognize depth and quality instead of the styles they're educated to think are cool, or the availability of items and movies sold in their stores, but rather, they aren't given the proper chance to (a) form an original opinion and (b) recognize depth and quality due to social reps valuing marketing more than culture and diversity. Even social reps can be friends, youtubers and popular tv shows taking a look back on old classics, new movies referencing old ones, and just the way the current trends pan out based on many unknowns. It depends much on the individual case, but may tie into social acceptance, ie. everyone liking the same things, a fear of being original and alone in liking something that nobody else does. "If x number of people say it's great, it must be great. If I really love something but everyone hates it, it must actually not be as good as I thought it was." You're asking why this is, but it gets down to the really specific trends we can't actually measure. Workers base their whole livelihoods off of tracking trends and fail all the time at seeing the real reasons behind things. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 E.T. would certainly seem to be an iconic and beloved film, yet it has become increasingly forgotten and irrelevant with each passing decade. Don't tell me it isn't true. It's more of a cult film these days. The next generation didn't embrace it and the previous generation mostly forgot about the film itself and remember the idea of it, if you will. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,901 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 First of all, we need to agree on what the definition of "iconic" even is. Relax, I read the thread, I just wanted to push your buttons. This is a question that has been asked for ages. Brahms was asked about what his impact will be after his death and his thoughts are worth reading. Here I quote him: "I will not find my true place in musical history until at least half a century after I am gone. Bach died in 1750 and he was completely forgotten until Mendelssohn revived him, more than 75 years later. And it was more than a hundred years after his death that Joachim succeeded in popularizing his monumental works for solo violin [Chaccone]. Also, the stupendous Beethoven violin concerto was neglected for fully fifty years after his death until Joachim revealed its wonders to the musical world." Brahms was asked to list prominent composers of his day and he recites a list of names that are forgotten to time. He disliked the then popular composer Anton Rubinstein finding his music lazy but people in that time would have predicted Rubinstein to outlast Brahms. Brahms also mentions a promising youth, Richard Strauss, who he predicted shows promise and was worth watching. Side note: early in Strauss's career, he was very traditional and a stylistic disciple of Brahms and the Strauss we know today happened after Brahms. Here are the Billboard top 10 songs from 1950. How many do you recognize? January 7, 1950 Gene Autry "Rudolph, The Red-nosed Reindeer" N/A 1 January 14, 1950 The Andrews Sisters "I Can Dream, Can't I" N/A 4 February 11, 1950 Ames Brothers "Rag Mop" N/A 1 February 18, 1950 Red Foley "Chattanoogie Shoe Shine Boy" N/A 4 March 18, 1950 Teresa Brewer "Music! Music! Music!" N/A 4 April 15, 1950 Eileen Barton "If I Knew You Were Comin' I'd've Baked a Cake" N/A 2 April 29, 1950 Anton Karas "The Third Man Theme" N/A 11 July 15, 1950 Nat King Cole "Mona Lisa (Nat King Cole song)" N/A 5 August 19, 1950 Gordon Jenkins and The Weavers "Goodnight Irene"♪ (1950) N/A 13 November 18, 1950 Sammy Kaye "Harbor Lights" N/A 2 December 2, 1950 Phil Harris "The Thing" N/A 4 December 30, 1950 Patti Page "The Tennessee Waltz" N/A 9 I will assume maybe 70 to 80% of the best songs of 1950 have been forgotten. Meanwhile, we do see some promising songs by Elvis, Rosemary Clooney, Perry Como, Everly Brothers, etc., during this same period and who did withstand the test of time. Sometimes great impact is recognized immediately but other times it takes a slow burn waiting for someone else like The Beatles to parlay their influence and explain their origins as being based on their predecessors. Basically, the same is true in all mediums including film, concert music, film music, architecture, literature, TV (Star Trek) etc. It is also amusing when history got it really wrong. “We find Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony to be precisely one hour and five minutes long; a frightful period indeed, which puts the muscles and lungs of the band, and the patience of the audience to a severe trial…” –The Harmonicon, London, April 1825 The point is what is ultimately considered iconic (or lets say stands the test of time) requires some passage of time to be evaluated within fuller context and cultural impact plus a stylistic impact to subsequent body of art. I think the least important consideration is how the work was originally received. Many things are thought that they will be highly regarded but are forgotten. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,323 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 6 hours ago, Selina Kyle said: E.T. would certainly seem to be an iconic and beloved film, yet it has become increasingly forgotten and irrelevant with each passing decade. Don't tell me it isn't true. It's more of a cult film these days. The next generation didn't embrace it and the previous generation mostly forgot about the film itself and remember the idea of it, if you will. How can you know for sure it is no longer remembered? The Duffer brothers seem to remember it very well. How do we know a movie is remembered or not? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 By how many references it plants into popular culture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon McBride 113 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Selina Kyle said: E.T. would certainly seem to be an iconic and beloved film, yet it has become increasingly forgotten and irrelevant with each passing decade. Don't tell me it isn't true. It's more of a cult film these days. The next generation didn't embrace it and the previous generation mostly forgot about the film itself and remember the idea of it, if you will. True, none of my roommates like ET at all. They think it's too creepy. I for one think it's a great film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 Creepy? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,323 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 9 hours ago, publicist said: By how many references it plants into popular culture? Indeed, or by their enduring impact on pop culture. 9 hours ago, Stefancos said: Creepy? What? Now you understand why I asked Hawmy what his roommates' favorite movies are?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 Their enduring impact of pop culture certainly is a factor. And how many other film makers are inspired by a movie. Thats why Pulp Fiction became so big. Others began following in it's footsteps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melange 446 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 On 19/11/2016 at 3:06 PM, Stefancos said: Why do some films become cultural touchstones while other do not? It doesnt seem to have anything to do with the quality. I wonder, does it have something to do with whether or not there are a whole host of juicy quotes to bring up in order to keep the flame alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,153 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 21 minutes ago, Melange said: I wonder, does it have something to do with whether or not there are a whole host of juicy quotes to bring up in order to keep the flame alive? Sneakers is just as quotable as The Big Lebowski, but I don't think it's much remembered these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 Well thats just like...your opinion man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,323 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 We quote from movies we love and we forget the others. Alex - who remembers The Others quite well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Sneakers is a cult film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 I thought the opening of Fantastic Beasts was really iconic. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 So you reckon it will be remembered and referenced 10 years from now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: Sneakers is just as quotable as The Big Lebowski, but I don't think it's much remembered these days. It's a safely 'entertaining' movie that just seems a notch above others of the same ilk. The 'Shawshank Redemption' of high tech thrillers. It certainly doesn't deserve cult status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 44 minutes ago, Will said: I thought the opening of Fantastic Beasts was really iconic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 I was kidding, @BloodBoal and @Stefancos. I literally copied and pasted the exact wording of Bloodboal's little aside from earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 Damn! Well done, Sir. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon McBride 113 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 11 hours ago, Stefancos said: Creepy? What? I don't know. I don't understand why they think that. 11 hours ago, Alexcremers said: Now you understand why I asked Hawmy what his roommates' favorite movies are?! You asked me what my favorite movies were, not my roommates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Well, it was a pretty great opening. In all seriousness, though, I think that the key to an "iconic" film is that it's important in widespread "popular culture" and not just a niche following, however large that niche community may be. Therefore, I don't think any of us at JWFan can really have the best pulse on what is iconic. I mean, the kinds of things we here consider to be "mass entertainment" often are much more niche than the real mass entertainment, at least among my generation. TV shows right now seem to be much more in vogue than movies for my generation anyway, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Just now, BloodBoal said: Wut? Examples? Well, at least for the kids I know, Star Wars is frankly a rather niche thing compared to the latest TV shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: Star Wars, niche? Where am I? The sixth dimension? Well, I mean, it was very popular when I was in, like, second grade, but by now it's not really the "popular entertainment." In other words, it was very popular when I didn't know what it was, and now that I'm a fan, not so much. But, sure, "niche" may have been going a little far. And Star Wars may well end up being way more iconic among my generation than TV shows, ultimately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 I'm sorry Will. But Star Wars has never been niche and I doubt it ever will. It's the definition of mass entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,323 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 "I didn't think the film was going to be successful." -George Lucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Yes! Star Wars was niche the first day or two after it came out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 John Williams dying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 We're all 432 posts away from oblivion anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 I made no such promise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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