The Music Of The Hobbit Films - Doug Adams' Book confirmed by Howard Shore

[Doug Adams 494]

15 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

If the OST sales numbers, LotR CR sales numbers, the commercial success of the movies, box office numbers, and cultural impact of the films as a whole don't convince the right people of the commercial viability of such a release, in some form, then I would guess the effect the content of a niche product book will have, is comparatively miniscule, if not imaginary.

 

How can people enjoy reading about music they can't hear, and if you can hear some of it, then either edited or buried under sound? It's very cruel.

 

I also don't think it's blasphemy to discuss decisions made for a product, that is after all made for us and the general public. I don't subscribe to the notion of "just be happy about what you're given, shut up, and don't ask". It's not too difficult making decisions and being patient if you are the composer, or if you are one of the very few people who can listen to the entire thing anytime they want.

We have the OSTs, which we know are edited; we have the score in the films, which is an editorial mess. Then we get a book that writes about all of this awesome stuff in unedited form. "Can we hear the music?" "Oh, no, I'm afraid you can't." 

I don't think you can honestly be surprised that there might be people who find this dangling carrot at least bewilderig, or even more. I find it kind of depressing actually.

 

I would expect that people would have a mature and informed understanding that such decisions do not rest in any single pair of hands. Many people -- myself included -- would love to see Hobbit Complete Recordings. No one is depriving listeners for nefarious pleasure. It's simply a question of whether or not those with pockets deep enough to fund such a project are willing/able to do so without a guaranteed return on the investment. Right now, that hasn't happened. It doesn't necessarily mean it won't ever ... but right now Hobbit CRs do not have a green light. Other projects, however, do.

 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The easiest solution for everyone at this point would be a recording sessions leak!

[bollemanneke 3,334]

But I imagine that the LOTR CRs sold quie well, they've been out of print for a while now... I'm really astounded that we even have to have a debate about whether the best film score of all time deserves a complete release, I'd even be happy with a digital download.

 

Oh, and earlier someone asked what I didn't like about the extended box sets. How about titles like 'Tauriel, daughter of the forest'? 'Tauriel, product of unnecessary trilogy obsessions' sounds more like it to me. And spreading the films over two discs is just stupid. The first disc of BOTFA has a running time of, like, 88 minutes. Give me a break. But yes, the Shore documentary is amazing.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

37 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

 

But if the book were to simply cover the currently released albums, then there would be next to no chance of hearing the unreleased music or the complete releases.

 

A book that covers Shore's complete original intentions for the Hobbit will be a more thorough analysis, explaining in more depth the thematic connections and intentions behind Shore's work and narrating the whole story of the films. It just so happens that book also makes it more likely that we will get to hear the unreleased music in the future, and potentially a complete/follow-along-with-the-book soundtrack. (as he mentioned above, Doug is doing us a favour in this regard!)

 

I'm baffled at some of the responses here. Sure there aren't CR releases in the works currently, and we would be really eager to hear pieces if we were reading the book and the music was not public yet, but we simply do not know that this will be the case. Remember that the book doesn't even have a release date yet. It seems likely by the time it comes out, or soon after, there will be some way of listening to the music that is discussed but not currently released. This seems more ideal than a book that canonises the stripped down version of the scores from the OSTs, and leaves the rest of what we've heard as mere additional material that you hear when you watch the films.

 

A book NOT talking about music that is not even released doesn't reduce the chances of expanded or rarity releases one iota. You think if the music isn't written about, it won't get released? Come on, you don't believe that! The desire for additional music has been known ever since the Film version of AUJ turned out to be so messy. I don't think people in charge are buffoons who don't know that interest exists. It doesn't need a book Release to see that.

 

I also don't think that the book release is so far away. I would venture a guess and say within the next 1,5 years.

 

I would like to add that you get your hopes up way too easily. All Doug said was that he hopes the book would have a positive effect on whether complete releases will be produced. You are concluding that by the time we have the book, or shortly thereafter, we would have officially released music, or even a "Read Along" release. At no point was this ever said or hinted at.

 

You know what would be ideal? Releasing the book AFTER we have expanded releases. The LotR book was postponed forever, also for some odd legal reasons, but also because the CRs were on the horizon, and the book then followed them along, and was therefor released in conformed form afterwards, or together with RotK, because it was intended as companion to those CRs.

 

I don't know about the details, but I'd say the Hobbit book is released in the immediate future, whatever that may be exactly, because expanded releases are NOT on the horizon anywhere, so it doesn't make sense holding it off, and Doug is covering the complete expanded score in the hope that eventual releases don't deviate too much from it.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Wikipedia claims the book will be out this year... Trust in English version declining rapidly...

[gkgyver 1,645]

26 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

 

I meant that in the same sense that people say they listen along to the Complete Recordings when they read the LOTR book. I didn't mean it would be branded as a "Read Along" release.

 

He told us the book covers the Shore's complete scores before film-maker changes. This is not something that will change, given that the scores have already been written.

 

Like the FotR CR doesn't exist, that does not have the complete expanded score before filmmaker conformings?

Like Phantom Menace Ultimate Edition doesn't exist, that claims the horrible abortion pressed on CD is "every Second of music written"?

 

Don't ever put stupid decisions beyond anyone, no matter how big or obvious the project!

 

About the book having an effect of bringing awareness to the people: how many people who are not already aware of it, are gonna buy the book and go "damn, there is music missing"? Doug himself said, even the LotR CRs were niche products. Then what would Hobbit CRs be? What is a book about Hobbit CRs? Exactly, a niche product, meaning almost only people who already are aware of the subject will read it.

And even if a good number of people that are "casuals" would indeed read about the missing music, they would go to Spotify, find 3 Hobbit albums with 100 minutes of pure music each, and think "I don't need more than that".

Measuring the demand for a score album by the demand from the general casual public, that's dangerous, because the broad public doesn't care much about pure score albums in the first place, especially in this digital age. If you go by that, then no film score should ever get released.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Man, do you know how many albums, PURE Film score albums, are being sold? Doug himself called the CRs niche products, and I recall him saying that despite them doing well in comparison to other releases, they still didn't make a ton of money, after thorough archive searches, mastering, mixing, product design etc. 

If you want to accept it or not, expanded scores of existing scores are NOT by any means mainstream. So, what do you think books written about them are? Certainly not NYT bestsellers.

And that's not a knock or criticism, these are excellent products. But you severely overestimate the demand for them outside the realm of Soundtrack/Tolkien fandom.

 

And I think you know what I mean with the first part. You are saying that the additional music discussed in the book will of course be present on a possible later expanded soundtrack release because it's the composer's original unedited intention. And I'm saying there is precedent for labelled "complete soundtracks" NOT having the original unedited intentions. There is plenty missing from FotR, as was discussed ad nauseam already.

So, discussing Music that is not even out there yet is a risk.

 

Listen, I like your optimism, but don't underestimate corporate wheels and/or decisions by the composer when it comes down to concrete plans. Doug said more than once that Shore is protective about his music, what he lets through to the public.

And sadly, from a corporate money making standpoint, Hobbit Complete Recordings are anything but a bucket of money sitting idly on the shelf. It's more or less dependent on a company showing some good will, and/or the composer being willing to invest something.

 

Also, don't forget that no small part of this is also Shore's feelings on his own music, and how he feels about the whole Hobbit experience, and how satisfying the end product is to him. I don't know, artists are peculiar this way sometimes. It may very well be that Shore doesn't consider much outside the OST releases worth revisiting because the whole process of the trilogy is not very fondly in his memory.

 

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

How would that work in the concrete situation? An Album company reads the book and says "dammit that's cool"? I don't think that's how businesses work.

[Jay 37,249]

Mr. @Doug Adams, thank you for posting here!  You are so smart that writing a book about the original, intended scores would help convince the rights-holders to want to fund a complete release.  Thank so so much for your continued efforts to get Shore'e great music out to the general public!

 

But I just have to ask one teensy question, I hope I don't offend you:  Can you actually say with a straight face to anyone that the An Unexpected Journey soundtrack release is "nearly complete"?  There was a lot, A LOT of music recorded for that film that isn't on either the standard or special edition.  In fact, if I am recalling the right number, there is 50 minutes of music in the film alone that isn't on CD... and obviously, there's more on top of that that was recorded and then not used in the film or on the CD.

 

I completely understand that in the eyes of the corporate dudes who have to approve and fund releases view the 2CD sets as practically complete and need more convincing this time around to get things moving for a second round of releases, but please, everyone here in these threads is very much aware of how incomplete the original releases are, good sir!

[Doug Adams 494]

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

Mr. @Doug Adams, thank you for posting here!  You are so smart that writing a book about the original, intended scores would help convince the rights-holders to want to fund a complete release.  Thank so so much for your continued efforts to get Shore'e great music out to the general public!

 

But I just have to ask one teensy question, I hope I don't offend you:  Can you actually say with a straight face to anyone that the An Unexpected Journey soundtrack release is "nearly complete"?  There was a lot, A LOT of music recorded for that film that isn't on either the standard or special edition.  In fact, if I am recalling the right number, there is 50 minutes of music in the film alone that isn't on CD... and obviously, there's more on top of that that was recorded and then not used in the film or on the CD.

 

I completely understand that in the eyes of the corporate dudes who have to approve and fund releases view the 2CD sets as practically complete and need more convincing this time around to get things moving for a second round of releases, but please, everyone here in these threads is very much aware of how incomplete the original releases are, good sir!

 

Not including the rewrites (Radagast, Thorin's Wraith chant, etc.) or alternates, which are not currently considered to be "score canon" ... if such a thing exists. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

21 minutes ago, Doug Adams said:

 

Not including the rewrites (Radagast, Thorin's Wraith chant, etc.) or alternates, which are not currently considered to be "score canon" ... if such a thing exists. 

 

In an ideal world Complete Recordings would contain:

 

1) The Score as originally intended by Howard Shore

2) All the alternates that appeared in the film

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

In an ideal world, recording sessions would leak and would include all of that plus even more stuff.

[Bilbo 3,709]

In an ideal world Howard Shore would personally deliver the sessions to my house, have tea, and discuss the scores in depth. 

 

[Doug Adams 494]

3 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

In an ideal world, recording sessions would leak and would include all of that plus even more stuff.

 

I don't think stealing from an artist you claim to admire would be very admirable.

 

11 minutes ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

 

In an ideal world Complete Recordings would contain:

 

1) The Score as originally intended by Howard Shore

2) All the alternates that appeared in the film

 

 

Alternates tend to live quite nicely as Rarities. Allows the principal album to maintain a proper narrative flow, yet ensures that the material still reaches interested listeners. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 minute ago, Doug Adams said:

 

I don't think stealing from an artist you claim to admire would be very admirable.

 

 

Alternates tend to live quite nicely as Rarities. Allows the principal album to maintain a proper narrative flow, yet ensures that the material still reaches interested listeners. 

 

 

Agreed. 

 

I don't enjoy listening to 3-4 different versions of the same cue whilst listening to an album but those alternates are nice to have elsewhere. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

6 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

I think when BS said that, he meant with the alternates presented on a separate disc, rather than part of the main album program.

 

So basically:

 

- First 3 discs: Shore's score presented as originally intended

- Bonus discs: Alterrnates.

 

Indeed!

 

My preference is to get all the music in someway but if a gun was pointed at my head and I was told to pick I'd take the score as Shore originally intended. 

 

This is probably where the issue of the CRs comes in though as Shore probably sees the special edition of AUJ as pretty much complete. Sure there's loads of music in the film that he wasn't included but he doesn't count that as "canon" anyway.

 

It would be a shame to never get "Valley of Imladris" as a track though :/

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

I'd take both.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

Hell, I'd even buy complete releases of the Hooper Harry Potters!!!!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Yes, Hooper's tapestry is extremely intricate. Never heard such a brilliant musical narrative in my life. Here are two scores that absolutely need complete commercial releases!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Here's to hoping (hooping?) that you're joking.

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Don't worry, I haven't gone insane just yet.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Isn't that exactly what an insane person would say?

[gkgyver 1,645]

No, insane persons say they would voluntarily listen to 70 minutes of Half Blood Prince.

[A. A. Ron 1,736]

I would do that...

[Bilbo 3,709]

I'm not a big fan but there are definitely worse scores than Hopper's two "efforts". HBP has some lovely themes to be fair.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Overall its a bit bland. But there are nice parts.

 

 

[Bilbo 3,709]

In Noctem

Dumbledore's Death

When Harry Kissed Ginny

 

There are some nice highlights but the underscore is dull alright. 

 

Its a film and score I do appreciate more and more every time I revisit it. 

 

Anyway, we'll all be won around to it with the inevitable release of "The Music of the Harry Potter Film Series by Douglas Adams*"

 

 

*No, not the Hitchhiker's guy". 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

I enjoy OotP less than HBP but Hooper create s the perfect theme for Umbridge. Couldn't imagine anything else suiting her. 

 

His idea of underscore seems to be lots of long notes on a stringed instruments. 

 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

3 hours ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

Anyway, we'll all be won around to it with the inevitable release of "The Music of the Harry Potter Film Series by Douglas Adams*"

 

[Bilbo 3,709]

Just John Williams' scores? 😳

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

424 pages divided by 17 chapters detailing the various thematic and stylistic ideas of the 3 Williams scores. And a 8 page appendix that deals with the other 5.

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Umbridge's theme was good, except that he didn't use it during her finale in OOTP. As for people being angry over a non-Williams score, if you've got four spectacular orchestral scores and the story gets bigger every time, such a simple score makes no sense.

 

PS: God, I hope Hooper isn't on this forum.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Well, to be fair, those two films simplified the books a good deal, so I wouldn't put the blame entirely on Hooper.

 

Anyway, could the scores have been better? Yes, of course. Should they have been more complex, with more themes and all? I guess so. Are they goddamn awful, some of the worst in the genre? Not in any way, shape or form in my opinion.

 

I guess the fact I never had a huge emotional attachment to the Potter franchise (books, films and scores) makes it easier for me to appreciate/not hate Hooper's music.

[Jay 37,249]

23 hours ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

 

In an ideal world Complete Recordings would contain:

 

1) The Score as originally intended by Howard Shore

2) All the alternates that appeared in the film

 

 

Yes, please!

 

Except, I believe it should go one step further and include the additional alternates that weren't used in the film, as well.

 

 

The methodology Matessino follows for any John Williams, Goldsmith or Horner for example score, where you get a narratively sound main program of the complete score, and then a section of alternates after the end credits, is what Shore's brilliant Middle-Earth scores also deserve - in my humble opinion.  Of course, the fact that Shore is alive and does't want his Middle-Earth scores released that way, is completely understandable.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I guess Uwe Boll films have worse scores.

[Faleel 5,326]

So according to @Doug Adams twitter the "Motif" in Coronal of Silver and Gold and Spell of Concealment is coined "The Forces of the Enemy"

 

I always just considered it a variation of Evil of the Ring and/or Evil Times

[Jay 37,249]

Why would a motif from the original LOTR scores not be named in his book?

[Incanus 5,713]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Why would a motif from the original LOTR scores not be named in his book?

Because it gained more of a thematic significance after the fact i.e. only after it was reused in the Hobbit?