SPOILER TALK: Rogue One by Gareth Edwards

[Quintus 5,399]

29 minutes ago, Incanus said:

It was genuinely thrillling stuff I have to agree.

 

Was it just me or did it start out as all models before switching shortly after to CGI? 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

20 hours ago, Romão said:

This scene does not really fit with what we saw in Rogue One, does it?

 

 

 

20 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

I never expected the plot to completely tie into ANH flawlessly. It never happens with sequels, unfortunately. You can always find a line fo dialogue in the original film that contradicts what happened in the sequel.

 

But it would have been easy to fix: just have one Rebel transmit the data to the Tantive IV (which would have been far away from Scarif) before being slaughtered by Vader. There: after the slaughter, Vader sees the transmission, and order his men to find the ship which received the data. Then cut to the communications officer aboard the Tantive IV receiving the message, informing Leia they got the plans, and Leia ordering for them to go to Yavin (or wherever they were supposed to go at the beginning of ANH). End the film with a shot of the Tantive IV flying away, with uplifting music leading us into the end credits...

That way we could have had a slower ending instead of the one we got with the end credits starting in the middle of an action sequence!

 

Exactly my main complain of the film. This is an instance where they should have kept with stablished EU. Tantive IV receives the transmission, not being the bloody warzone. It makes no sense now to say 'consular ship in diplotatic mission to alderaan' AT ALL.

 

Blooboal! You dont know where leia is headed? As the film says, and ANH, she is going to retrieve Obi wan at Tatooine in route to alderaan. Now i just realize everything makes no sense. If she is pursued by vader from the very beggining how se is supposed to retrieve obiwan in the midst of a battle... Madness.

 

It should have gone like this:

 

Last dying rebel press button and sends the tranmission. Vader finished him and realises the transmission. He orders a technician to track the transmission. Then we cut to the Tantive IV without urgency because they are just passing through far from the battle. They inform Leia, and she says, we must bring theses plans to my father. Just at than moment, they get out of hyperspace and the pilot shoutes ' princess, we arrived to Tatooine. Then she says, good, lets finish what we came for and speed up for Alderaan. And end.

 

We assume that the star destroyer appears while they are approaching the planet. (in the old star wars you could not get in or out hyperspace near the planets....)

 

Shame. It's really strange nobody thought about this (Tantive IV receiving a transmission), are there no SW fans anywere in the production team???

 

 

19 hours ago, Romão said:

The title card was horrendous. That fanfare looked something straight out of Spaceballs, Star Whores or some other Star Wars parody. It was jarring

Why didnt they use a short direct quote of the Star Wars (Luke) theme? Bewildering. I dont think it's giacchino's fault. THey probably forced him to sepparate this from the main saga. Sadly.

16 hours ago, Romão said:

Yes, you could feel the age in James Earl Jones' voice

Dont complain! Dont complain! Our voice actor died a few years ago and they haven't tried to seach for an impersonator! Neither for Leia nor Tarkin. They have to stick with professional voice actors...that dont really sound like them. Need to watch this in english forever. (I must say that at first vader didnt sound that bad...but the more he spoke the more it was noticeable )

 

About the Tarkin/Leia CGI, i'm with most of you, the technology is not there yet. But in just some angles it was perfect. They have to perfect the mouths, they eyes look real but they dont seem to look where they should. On a side note. we all know how Peter cushing is, and we have seen star wars countless of times. And therefore we know that this CGI is not the real thing. But , you know, I asked my girlfriend after she asked me if the last woman was Leia, and i told her she was CGI, as well as the 'Tarkin guy'. And she was amazed, she thought Leia was a look-alike and tarkin a very old man with make up to make him younger (she assumed it was the original actor rejuvenated). But she didnt thought they were fake persons. So it can work for some people (young-non star wars fans-casual movie goers). The same as CGI animals working for you people and not for me.

 

The Tantive IV received a transmission (like ANH says) and they back up to a tape and give it to Leia (the tapes mentioned to darth vader in ANH too..)

 

 

Well this is what i say after reading your comments... my opinion on the film and score need to be more thought off.

this is how it was...

[Thor 7,463]

I'm confused, and I tried to read these last comments. Can you tell someone who's not as into this universe as you guys, about how that dialogue in the opening of ANH does not tie in to the ROGUE ONE ending? Imagine you're talking to someone who's not heard of STAR WARS before.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

How do the Tarkin/Leia CGIs compare with CLU?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

2 minutes ago, Richard said:

How do the Tarkin/Leia CGIs compare with CLU?

Ages better.

[Quintus 5,399]

They should have used Jim Cameron's digital effects house for the CG characters, it would have been far more convincing than the Polar Express (great Crimbo movie) lookalikes they ended up with. Was this Disney's own work, or ILM? 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

1 minute ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Ages better.

 

Thanks. That's good to know (although I don't see anything wrong with CLU).

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I'm not entering that discussion, Quint

[Quintus 5,399]

Look at the characters in Avatar; their eyes and mouths do not suffer from the uncanny valley felt in Rogue One, it's highly convincing work. 

 

Tbh though I didn't really care that the CGI for Tarkin was substandard anyway. He was a cool presence to have around regardless, and the voiceover worked. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'm confused, and I tried to read these last comments. Can you tell someone who's not as into this universe as you guys, about how that dialogue in the opening of ANH does not tie in to the ROGUE ONE ending? Imagine you're talking to someone who's not heard of STAR WARS before.

Darth Vader says that Leia's ship received transmissions. Now obviously it didnt. Later some tapes are mentioned an officer says that they havent done any transmissions: obviously they recored the transmission in tapes and that's what leia has given to R2)

 

Also in Rogue one, Mon Mothma and Bail organa said it is time to talk to the Jedi (Obi wan). Leia is supposed to go to Tattoine to look for him. Now she is fleeing pursuit from a Star Destroyer. there is no way she can stop, retrieve him from the planet and go to alderaan. The star destroyer attack should be an unexpected  ambush.

 

SInce we are told here that they are going to kenobi there is no alternate explanation now. If they didnt mention it in rogue one, one could assume that leia is in pursuit and she goes in a hurry in tattoine (because its the nearest place with an ally she knows) trying to send the plans to kenobi with R2 message.

 

Also, the covert history aobut being a consular ship is broken, because there is no way Vader will believe that since he saw the ship get out of the Rebel cruiser.

[Thor 7,463]

Thanks, Luke. Still a bit overwhelming to me. Can you simplify it even more without too many names and stuff?

 

At the end of ROGUE ONE, my impression is this: The transmission is sent from the planet up to the federation ship in orbit (the one that is being bombarded by Vader), but before the imperial troops board it, a smaller ship within it takes off with the message (containing both Leia and the transmission record). And that is the ship that is later being pursued in the opening of ANH -- now jumped to the space around Tatoiine. Is that correct?

 

If so, what Leia says in the dialogue above seems correct to me.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

43 minutes ago, Thor said:

Thanks, Luke. Still a bit overwhelming to me. Can you simplify it even more without too many names and stuff?

 

At the end of ROGUE ONE, my impression is this: The transmission is sent from the planet up to the federation ship in orbit (the one that is being bombarded by Vader), but before the imperial troops board it, a smaller ship within it takes off with the message (containing both Leia and the transmission record). And that is the ship that is later being pursued in the opening of ANH -- now jumped to the space around Tatoiine. Is that correct?

 

If so, what Leia says in the dialogue above seems correct to me.

OK, leia is lying (she ever was), but she could have done a better excuse, since now she is leaving the battle and she knows she has been seen. One could say that she think she went out without being seen, but they should have adressed that in the film. Big explosion or something that blinded Vader or whatever and definately no other imperial ship to report...

 

Still Leia's ship did not intercept any transmission as vader believes and says. If he didnt see the soldier with the data disk... he is blind.. but since he did not use the force to get it... maybe he wasnt looking...

 

 

Streching it literally everything could be explained and there not be plot holes. But they should have gone the easier logical way and no need to make explanations for what we see in both movies.

 

Even if it can that be explained, still the part of leia's ship being in the hangar in the battle makes no sense, neither bail organa sending her to retrieve Kenobi. (they shouldnt have mention him) and then it could be explained that she goes to Tatooine for help because se is being pursued. <-WRONG just watched Leia's message in Kenobi's house. She says her father has asked her to bring obi wan to alderaan. So it really MAKES no sense to her being in the battle. They could have shown Vader ship being damaged or disabled to give her time to escape, go to tatooine and alderaan and it could have worked.

 

It's like Obi wan saying he never owned an R2 unit in ANH, even mentioning R2 is a modern model. It's a scrpit overlook since he clearly had and knew R2 units in the prequels, but obvioulsy one can argue that literally he didnt own them...they were property of the Jedi order or something.

[Incanus 5,713]

Hey at least now we know why there is such huge structural weakness in the Death Star. Because I have lost sleep over that in the past 20 years.  

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

 

4 minutes ago, Incanus said:

Hey at least now we know why there is such huge structural weakness in the Death Star.  

Well, it makes sense now? Many people complained how in the hell the empire could slip by a glaring mistake like that.

[crocodile 7,983]

Think Vader simply didn't know the plan was being passed on physically at the end of the film. I think he simply makes an assumption that plans were transmitted directly onto Tantive IV just because they left in such a rush. And it isn't necessarily a stretch that a diplomatic vessel ended up on that ship during the battle and they're simply trying to escape. Not something that bothers me greatly. 

 

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

It's just that instead of going the easy-logical way (or what people expect) of doing things they always have to make a unexpected twist to show this or that character...

 

Happened with the prequels and ep VII too.

[crocodile 7,983]

The thing is that if they do it the logical way it will likely be really boring. Simple as that,

 

Karol

[Thor 7,463]

I think I'll have to give up on understanding this. Unless someone can explain (preferably in just a couple of sentences) what's going on here. I'll return to the issue when my brain is not plagued with cold dizziness, as it is now.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

1 minute ago, crocodile said:

The thing is that if they do it the logical way it will likely be really boring. Simple as that,

 

Karol

Would it be boring if the ending was as i said (or bloodboal)?

 

It's just a mater of giving the physical disc or a transmission. Would it make more boring?

 

You can't make plot twists if the dialogue has been there for 40 years.

 

 

Yeah in the end all could be explained.

 

Heck how in the hell i'm always in the wrong side? WIth the prequels i had to defend them when any plothole arised compared to the OT. Now i jump into the bandwagon of SW critisizing pointing the inconsistencies and I still need to explain my view.... 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,983]

What you said in your post above is correct, Thor. 

 

What some people seem to be bothering about is that in the scene when Vaders slaughters the rebels they are carrying the plans on a physical format and it ends up on Tantive IV that way. People are wondering that if Vader notice those data tapes why is he saying anything about transmitting plans directly onto Tantive IV in the original film. Unless, of course, he didn't notice it.

 

The other thing is that Leia says in the original film that when the senate learns about Vader attacking a diplomatic ship there will be trouble. But in Rogue One they clearly escape from the middle of battle. So it's not like they intercepted them during a diplomatic mission. So Leia's excuse seems a bit flimsy in the original film.

 

Does it make sense now?

 

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,983]

Transmissions are not as exciting visually, if that makes sense.

 

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Well ok, Leia being in the battle makes it abrupt. If they had shown the ship outside the battle, in peace, with calm dialogue it would get a good ending.

Just now, crocodile said:

Transmissions are not as exciting visually, if that makes sense.

 

Karol

Um the damned exciting third act of the film was about that, in fact.

[crocodile 7,983]

Yeah, and that is why it needed something else at the very end.

 

I;m not disagreeing with you as such. But I can see why they did it this way.

 

Karol

[A24 4,326]

Plot holes that only a maniac notices  ... it seems so trivial to worry about that. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

 

To be honest, what bothers me is not so much that the ending of Rogue One creates an inconsistency with ANH, rather that it just makes for a really abrupt ending, not a proper film ending.

 

I was expecting an abrupt ending. I think a "proper film ending" would have seemed fake. It's not a standalone film, it's a prequel (a proper prequel).

 

And seriously, regarding the "transimission": It *is* a transmission. Sent to the ship the Tantive IV was docked to. Copied on a physical storage, carried over to the docked Tantive IV. I don't think it's a stretch at all to still call it a transmission, and to say that the transmission was sent to her ship.

[Quintus 5,399]

I liked the urgency of the ending, it was no nonsense. Plus we'd just had that Vader moment anyway, which gave me a throbbing erection which I then had to sort out in the cinema's bathroom afterwards. Oh yes, a very satisfying ending indeed. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

5 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

It would have been a sensibly similar ending, sure, but with a bit of respite before you get to the end credits, which I personally feel is needed in a film.

Yeah the ending was abrupt.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I wasn't sure where to post this.  I speak a lot about the score, but I also openly discuss spoilers so I'll put it here.

 

These are my hastily typed out first impressions after one viewing of the film and one listen of the OST:

 

Well, I was planning on marinating all weekend with the OST and my memory of the film, but with holiday traveling and whatnot I probably won't have time to give it much close listening.  So I'll go ahead and go through my first impressions of both film and score without reading what others here have been saying first.

Film

There’s a lot to like, especially after it gets through the frankly incoherent first act.  The action setpieces are all uniformly great, by far the greatest strength of the movie.  The “insurgency” style battle on Jedha, the stealth attack that becomes a full-blown fleet attack on Eadu, and of course the climactic beach battle.  These were incredibly well-executed, easy to follow, fun, and always had character stakes. Oh, and the image of the Star Destroyers crashing into the shield generator is one of the coolest of any Star Wars movie.

I also thought the central theme of the movie was very effective.  It really makes you feel the sacrifices, both physical and emotional, that a rebellion against a great power demands in a way the saga films never did or tried to do.  These are basically the characters who are in the background of the original trilogy given center stage to honor their deaths in the service of giving our main saga characters a fighting chance to defeat the Empire.

Now, the bad. Ohhh the bad.  CGI Tarkin is a disgusting abomination.  It’s an insult to the memory of a great actor who would’ve given a great performance in this film if it was made 40 years ago, but it wasn’t.  It feels so wrong, so unholy.  An example of incredible technicians not giving enough thought to the ethical and emotional implications of their work.  Just cast a lookalike.  It’s not a big deal. My suspension of disbelief can handle it.  I would've been more ok if Leia at the end were the only CGI recreation of an actor (it helps that she's not dead) because it's one shot and one word.  But creating an entire film performance for a dead actor is WRONG.

I pretty much cringed at all the direct tie-ins/references to A New Hope.  I’m not even sure why, this stuff didn’t bother me in the prequels or The Force Awakens.  But in Rogue One, it all felt weird and wrong.  So much of the movie was like Star Wars playacting or something.

The pacing of the film was all over the place.  It was a fucking mess.  The jumping back and forth between planets at the beginning was awful.  I stopped paying attention to the titles of planets that came up.

I couldn’t shake the feeling that the movie felt so unnecessary. It does not need to exist.  The weak point in the Death Star needed no explaining, the chase that kicks off A New Hope needed no setting up.

I loved The Force Awakens.  I thought it was so smart to craft it as an introduction of really well-written new characters with an in-film and "meta" handing off of the Star Wars torch.  A Williams score probably helped, but Rogue One in no way measures up.  It is the 2nd best Star Wars movie of the past 12 months.

 

The Score

I’ve gotta say, throughout the film and while sitting through the end credits music, I was thinking to myself, “This score is pathetic.”  Frankly, I don’t think Giacchino is cut out for Star Wars.  His scores are best when they’re fun, fluffy, and frivolous.  This is why he excels at animated/children’s films and when the films skew older, like Star Trek, they’re much lighter and more ironic in tone than Star Wars.  He doesn’t have the talent for incorporating and developing leitmotifs or the orchestral skill of writing engaging and uplifting underscore.  He lacks earnestness.

The score felt clumsy and amateurish.  Frankly, a huge disappointment after the far superior Star Trek Beyond score.  His incorporation of existing Williams themes was especially clumsy.  The new themes made almost no impression and when they did it was to make me laugh at how bad they were (lookin’ at you, new “Imperial” theme).

Again, these were my first impressions upon seeing the movie.  After listening to the OST this morning, I will say my opinion has been rehabilitated somewhat.  I still hate his Imperial theme. The Jyn and Rebellion themes are ok, I guess, but nothing amazing.  By far the best of his new themes is the “Guardians of the Whills” stuff.  It’s probably why I like the Jedha part of the score so much.

In some ways this was an impossible task.  This film is a direct tie-in to one of the greatest films ever made that had the greatest score ever written.  The way I put it to my wife was, “Imagine if a composer was tasked with writing a prequel to Mozart’s Magic Flute or something.”  It was just never going to measure up.  BUT. The rushed nature of Giacchino’s score is felt with every ill-thought out note.  I would kill to hear what Desplat’s score would’ve been.

[Romão 2,274]

4 hours ago, Quintus said:

The space battle is absolute brilliant I have to admit, which is a bit of an achievement in itself when you consider how desensitised and bored we have become of endless climatic spaceship battles in recent years. It's sheer unadulterated Star Wars here though. 

 

Oh, I agree, even if I was ambivalent to most of the movie. Looked great, had a clear purpose, clear objective and I loved the ticking clock aspect of it. The ground battle was much more boring, though.

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

I've just read the plot of this, on Wiki.

Goodness, it's a bit of a downer, isn't it? 

[Quintus 5,399]

In the most simplistic sense, the two companions (blindy and samurai mercenary bloke) made the ground antics rather engaging for me, I liked those two characters, cheesy as they were. Plus there was something world war 2 movie-ish about the cover to cover shooting I liked. 

[Romão 2,274]

But the blind guy gets shot among all the crossfire. Once he gets shot, everybody stops shooting so he and his friend can have their moment. That took me out a bit

[Quintus 5,399]

I loved that! Very, very corny. Just what I require from Star Wars. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,983]

One thing that bothers me. Why do they need Mads to design the Death Star if they had the plans for the past 22 years already? Didn't Count Dooku have them already during the battle of Geonosis?

 

 

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

I don't really care about the moral question of portraying a dead actor in a modern movie. I'm all for a genetically engineered army of Peter Cushings and Oliver Reeds, maybe available for delivery from Amazon's new drone service for Prime users. 

[Romão 2,274]

5 minutes ago, crocodile said:

One thing that bothers me. Why do they need Mads to design the Death Star if they had the plans for the past 22 years already? Didn't Count Dooku have them already during the battle of Geonosis?

 

 

Karol

 

I prefer to think it was Attack of the Clones that got the chronology wrong. Makes much more sense that way

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Maybe he was the only one who understood how to use the Kyber crystals. Jyn got one from her mother and it was mentioned the Empire was stockpiling crystals for their weapon, so there could have been a connection there.

 

Like with so many characters in this movie, there was so much potential for a better backstory and a better character arc. We just never got it.

[Romão 2,274]

In Star Wars, moments that define characters and make you care for them are very hard to pull off. They have to be telegraphed, almost. Conveyed with a very small amount of elements. Star Wars is not a TV series, with endless dialogue scenes.

 

That is why Poe's introduction in TFA is so well handled. The whole "So who talks first? I talk first, you talk first?" thing is a prime example of what I am reffering to. It immediatly creates an empathy for the character, a sense of what this guy is about. Had any of the Rogue One characters have moments like this, and they would've felt much more alive, instead of being mere gears in the plot progression. Story is always more important than plot

[BloodBoal 7,538]

1 minute ago, Mr. Breathmask said:

Maybe he was the only one who understood how to use the Kyber crystals. Jyn got one from her mother and it was mentioned the Empire was stockpiling crystals for their weapon, so there could have been a connection there.

 

Like with so many characters in this movie, there was so much potential for a better backstory and a better character arc. We just never got it.

 

I'm sure it'll all be explained in comic books and novels of the Expanded Universe!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just saw it. Good flick!

[Quintus 5,399]

4 minutes ago, Romão said:

In Star Wars, moments that define characters and make you care for them are very hard to pull off. They have to be telegraphed, almost. Conveyed with a very small amount of elements. Star Wars is not a TV series, with endless dialogue scenes.

 

That is why Poe's introduction in TFA is so well handled. The whole "So who talks first? I talk first, you talk first?" thing is a prime example of what I am reffering to. It immediatly creates an empathy for the character, a sense of what this guy is about. Had any of the Rogue One characters have moments like this, and they would've felt much more alive, instead of being mere gears in the plot progression. Story is always more important than plot

 

The Kasdan factor. Those sorts of incidental dialogue gems are all over Raiders and Empire Strikes Back. 

 

This movie did not have a great script. Nor did TFA either, but it was a bit more down to earth than this I thought. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

11 minutes ago, crocodile said:

One thing that bothers me. Why do they need Mads to design the Death Star if they had the plans for the past 22 years already? Didn't Count Dooku have them already during the battle of Geonosis?

 

 

Karol

 

 

See the novel Catalyst (or a summary online). They were just schematics, Galen had to work out how to build a laser that powerful (he specialised in kyber crytals).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Just now, Bilbo Skywalker said:

See the novel Catalyst

 

See! I told you so, man!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Why does Vader have a house on Mustafar?