Original Trilogy to Sequel Trilogy - What Changed in the Action Music?

[DarthDementous 1,059]

something that I'm quite baffled by whenever I go from listening to TFA after the OT is how the intelligently constructed action pieces with memorable melodies and sequences (in addition to the wonderful eclectic intensity which is a staple of Williams) seemingly disappear. its quite disappointing because other elements of the music are on par with the OT which is Rey's theme and March of the Resistance but stuff like 'The Rathtars' and 'Follow Me/The Falcon' is very erratic with little repetition to hang onto. I suppose the closest to OT action writing is 'I Can Fly Anything' but that's still a far-cry from something like 'The Battle of Hoth' or 'Asteroid Field'. hell, even some of the Prequel action cues kept this in-tact so I'm led to wonder if it was a by-product of the pacing of the movie itself which is very fast-paced. compare Finn and Poe's escape to something like the more methodical Battle of Hoth and you'll see what I mean, the music is given time to breath and there's a natural addition of elements and intensity such as with the entry of the AT-ATs. I don't know much about Rian Johnson's directing style but I hope to God it's slower and more thoughtful than TFA especially during the action - if that's the case and Williams can write action music like he used to then I'm even more excited for Episode 8.

 

feel free to prove me wrong that Williams can write action music like he used to by linking me recent action cues. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

 

[artguy360 1,843]

JW used to write action cues based around some kind of motif or as a kind of ballet with fun changes in temp accompanied by different motivic phases like the Desert Chase from Indy or The Battle of Yavin both of which have clear musical changes at important moments in the film. Contemporary JW action music is more reliant on more diverse textures and musically chaotic noise and changes in rhythm rather than a clear motivic identity.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

15 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

JW used to write action cues based around some kind of motif or as a kind of ballet with fun changes in temp accompanied by different motivic phases like the Desert Chase from Indy or The Battle of Yavin both of which have clear musical changes at important moments in the film. Contemporary JW action music is more reliant on more diverse textures and musically chaotic noise and changes in rhythm rather than a clear motivic identity.

Thanks, I was hoping someone would be able to put it into words. So it was a conscious decision to write like that now? Damn, feels like a step back.

 

I wonder, does anyone prefer TFA's action music to how it was done in the OT or PT?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No one said it was a conscious decision!

[artguy360 1,843]

2 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

Thanks, I was hoping someone would be able to put it into words. So it was a conscious decision to write like that now? Damn, feels like a step back.

 

I wonder, does anyone prefer TFA's action music to how it was done in the OT or PT?

I have no clue. That's just my impression but others could disagree. For me TPM was one of the last scores where I could hear musical motifs anchoring various action cues. I'm sure there have been more examples since then but that score stands out to me in that way.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

In short; JW changed. 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

8 minutes ago, Richard said:

In short; JW changed. 

that part was quite clear

 

I was just hoping to incite a discussion about the specifics of what changed to try and pinpoint what I prefer about the OT and PT action music compared to TFA.

[Score_Fan 36]

His style and age did. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

And the movies he is scoring too.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Indy IV has motif Driven Action cues...

[crumbs 14,300]

His writing style has changed but, perhaps confusingly, he occasionally revisits his older style at random moments. The BFG sounds like something straight out of 90's JW, while No Man's Land from War Horse is uniquely un-modern Williams  (lined up against most other action cues of the last 15 years).

 

But yes, he's moved away from melody-driven action cues. Probably around The Lost World he began exploring these more textural-driven action cues.

[Score 770]

Huge walls of sound effects in action sequences in modern movies make the music almost go unnoticed, so why would JW bother to write in the style of SW / ESB?

[Incanus 5,713]

Williams' style has naturally evolved in the time he wrote these scores and so have the films. In the late 90's and early 2000's you can hear the shift from the melody/setpiece motif driven action writing into the heavily kinetic realm where the score's purpose is to add the near physical kinetic thrust to the action scenes, driving them with rhythm rather than melodic content. Ostinati increase, flurries in the woodwinds and brass and pronounced percussion literally pushing the scene forwards and providing propulsion. I think it follows the times and modern sensibilities as much as it reflects the evolution of Williams' sound and voice as a composer. You can hear these ostinato-driven minimalistic cyclical progressions also in some of his concert work (e.g. Duo Concertante) and it was really prevalent up until 2005 and beyond in the film scores.

 

The Force Awakens is one of those hybrids where there are both at work. In my view I Can Fly Anything is an example of the older styled motivic setpiece action piece where a central idea (ostinato-driven though it might be) drives the action in a very exciting way and forms the spine of the cue. The "Heroes on the Run" motif for Finn and Rey's escapades is another very modern ostinato-based piece but by the grace of the repeated uses it gains a thematic character of its own. Again Rathtars follows the modernistic propulsion over thematic or balletic considerations as it accompanies a chaotic flight from one little situation to the next although JW again uses the "Heroes on the Run" idea for Finn's predicament as leitmotivic device to give the piece some thematic hooks before the Rebel Fanfare whisks the characters away.

 

The finale of the film alternates with highly thematic pieces like Ways of the Force and Scherzo for X-Wings and the kinetic propulsion and suspense of The Bombing Run and On the Inside. To me the score is thus very much a hybrid of old and new sensibilities of the Maestro, not one or the other.

[Jilal 569]

7 minutes ago, Incanus said:

To me the score is thus very much a hybrid of old and new sensibilities of the Maestro, not one or the other.

 

Dixissem in eisdem verba, sed tempum mihi defecisset.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crumbs 14,300]

1 hour ago, Incanus said:

The finale of the film alternates with highly thematic pieces like Ways of the Force and Scherzo for X-Wings and the kinetic propulsion and suspense of The Bombing Run and On the Inside. To me the score is thus very much a hybrid of old and new sensibilities of the Maestro, not one or the other.

 

TFA feels a bit like JW being torn between emulating his 70's/80's style of writing (at JJ's request) and his natural writing style of the 2010's. In fact, large portions of the score almost feel like the two butting heads.

 

I'll be more interested in Johnson's score for VIII; I think he'll just let JW go wild and not constrain him to a particular idiom of writing (which probably restricts his creative freedom as a musician and makes him second-guess what he's doing).

 

JW changing his writing style isn't going to be just like switching on a kitchen light, otherwise TFA would've sounded like an exact replica of ANH. Put simply, it doesn't. That's not to say he can't write scores that emulate the style of his older self (see The BFG) but I don't think he can "force" it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

If it was as simple for JW to change his writing style as it were to flick off the kitchen switch, TFA would've sounded like an exact replica of ANH. Put simply, it doesn't. That's not to say he can't write scores that emulate the style of his older self (see The BFG) but I don't think he can "force" it.

 

[crumbs 14,300]

And here I was thinking the inverted commas were subtle.

 

You missed the other obvious reference though.

[Bespin 8,479]

Don't underestimate the director's vision in the making of a score.

 

Star Wars is Star Wars because Lucas first intended to score his movie with existing classical music. He had an exact idea of what music, what mood he wanted for each scene of his movie.

 

Of course Williams score was a better idea.  But Williams had no choice to write pratically a new theme, a specific ambiance for each scene of the movie.

 

This is why I think the Star Wars score is so rich in thematic ideas.

 

The 1977 Star Wars score can't be compared to anything else. It's unique.

 

Tell Williams you want a piece that sounds like "Nessun Dorma" in your movie and he'll come with a beauty like "The Balloon Sequence". Now, if you still want Nessun Dorma in you movie, you're dumb.  What I try to explain is we got "The Ballon Sequence" music because of the director's vision for a specific scene, not because of Williams' stylistic evolution.

 

There is also another thing: experience and fame.

 

In the 70's, a director could tell Williams: "It would be fun to make this or that.", and Williams answered: "Oh, yes, sure...".

 

Now, I imagine Williams tell a director: "It would be fun to make this or that", and it's the director that answer: "Oh, yes, sure...".

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

Whatever happened, he seemed to have a stylistic change around the time of SpaceCamp, in much the same way when Barbara Ruick died.

Although I hate to say it (not really! ) Blood's right; the films changed. In the late 70s/early 80s, SS and GL ruled. By '87, their consistent power was on the wane. New, different films, by new, different makers started to make some noise. That JW survived, is a credit to his talent not only as a superlative composer, but his ability to see which way the wind blows.

[Jay 37,287]

First of all I doubt any composer in their 80s would write action music exactly like they wrote it in their 40s.

 

But I think the difference is more to do with filmmaking changing than him changing. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

Continue...

[Damien F 1,742]

A lot of the action music in Tintin sounded straight out of the early 90s JW era to me.

 

No Man's Land above could have been written for Far and Away

[Jay 37,287]

Also it's possible he originally wrote more complex action cues, as as the months of post-production went on and the scenes kept getting shortened or cut, his we rewrites had to be more simple. 

 

There's still so much recorded material we've never heard for this score... 

[Ludwig 1,120]

I found the following thread useful in trying to get at the change we were hearing between the OT vs. the PT, so the OP (and others) may find this useful as well:

 

 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

these are all fantastic answers, thank you! keep the discussion coming.

 

I think it is really down to three factors then:

 

1. Director input

2. Contemporary tradition of movie making

3. Natural evolution in the composer

 

I'm more inclined to believe it's the third because I know there's lots of examples of people being extremely fond of an artist's earlier work and when their creative process naturally evolves people are hearing something different that they may not appreciate as much.

 

I guess when it comes down to it, good action music doesn't have to conform to a specific style of writing but just really suit the scene and accentuate elements of it (i.e. the deep sound of the piano for the ATAT walking). another thought I just had is that the way its represented on the album is different, like I mentioned my favourite action pieces were Battle of Yavin, Battle of Endor, Battle of Hoth - and they're all suites. beyond the balladic and motivic identity of those pieces I think the thing that really gets me is my connection to the scenes they're representing and just how damn well they tell a musical narrative - Battle of Yavin especially.

 

I just listened to 'No Man's Land' and it was exciting enough and I did notice a motif but it didn't stand out to me as much as any of his Star Wars cues. that being said, I've only listened to it once (I have the seen the movie, just a fair while ago) and I find that true attachment to the music develops through re-listens to take it all in. I suppose even though I didn't grow up with the OT, I grew up with the games that heavily featured the music to the point I was connecting it to the games instead of the movies! no wonder I'm so attached to the OT soundtrack...

 

EDIT: yep, just as I thought. listened to 'No Man's Land' again and appreciated it a lot more for its swashbuckling energy.

 

EDIT2: now this is an interesting debacle, went into the other thread and saw Incanus' mention of 'Rancor Battle' and decided to listen to it after a while and absolutely loved it! wonderful action music that got me very amped up despite it being kinetic instead of motivic and balladic. I guess when it comes to Episode 8 it's not a matter of how he writes the action music, it's just if it's good or not :p.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I find myself whistling or humming bits from Follow Me/The Falcon all the time. I think it's very melodic in its own way.

[Will 2,215]

On 12/18/2016 at 9:44 AM, Jay said:

Also it's possible he originally wrote more complex action cues, as as the months of post-production went on and the scenes kept getting shortened or cut, his we rewrites had to be more simple. 

 

There's still so much recorded material we've never heard for this score... 

 

Wait, people are seriously arguing that TFA's action material isn't complex? 

 

I mean, I'm no music theorist, but "The Falcon" sounds pretty complex to me, and that's putting it mildly!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The orchestrations in TFA are leaner and slightly more streamlined yes.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

more minimalist I suppose. I don't think density is a bad thing though, and can make something sound more 'full'. 

 

I just listened to Follow Me and the Falcon as I haven't heard it in a while, and I do like the cue it just doesn't resonate with me like Williams' other action music. to me it feels too disjointed and doesn't keep the feeling of excitement. it certainly has its moments though, I like the OT fanfare blasts but wish they would go somewhere - instead it feels like they just drop off and the score jumps somewhere else. 

 

EDIT: okay I just realized that I listened to an edited version of what it sounds like in the film, and it's been micro-edited to all hell. 'The Falcon' and the album definitely flows better but my points above still stand. I think my favourite action cue from the Force Awakens is 'Kylo Ren Arrives at the Battle', those strings just get me pumped and it has a very prequel flavour to it (appropriate considering it's Kylo Ren) including what sounds like a Prequel theme reference at 0:30.

[publicist 4,643]

It's a mistake - musically speaking - to label all these pieces 'action' music. It's an easy enough moniker but if you look at these sequences from a storytelling standpoint, today they come more often, run much longer and are often enough unmotivated (for the sake of it) - also they have much more dense sound effect work - which makes it much harder to string little orchestral vignettes onto them.

 

Even in 1980, the music had to fill out a lot on the soundtrack that nobody needs or wants from it today (at least not those in charge). Why, on the other hand, Williams decided around AOTC that vaguely modernist heavily fissured pieces built on often musically anonymous motivic cells would be a sound solution for this new era i don't know. It's not 'out there' enough to be really musically interesting and too fractured for lovers of 'classical' film (or concert) music. Also, it's often just not much fun listening to it, apart from some notable exceptions. 

[karelm 2,903]

On 12/18/2016 at 8:05 AM, Ludwig said:

I found the following thread useful in trying to get at the change we were hearing between the OT vs. the PT, so the OP (and others) may find this useful as well:

 

 

 

That's a brilliant thread.  But I feel like we've been through this before.

 

What were your thoughts on the film and score, @Ludwig?

[Ludwig 1,120]

On 12/20/2016 at 7:51 PM, karelm said:

What were your thoughts on the film and score, @Ludwig?

 

I'll PM you so as not to derail the thread!