BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Not artists stealing from others, but from themselves... Doesn't bother me at all these days. In the past I looked on it negatively, and now-a-days I find it kind of positive. It's fun hearing an idea explored in a new context. Has growing senile also mellowed your sensibilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Depends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I'm okay with it now because the most notorious self-plagiarizer finally stopped doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Jay said: Depends! Depends on what, Jay? 1 hour ago, petaQ said: I'm okay with it now because the most notorious self-plagiarizer finally stopped doing it. By choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Indirectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Don't think it ever bothered me, and it hasn't started. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 14, 2017 I hated how Beethoven ripped off Michael Kamen's Die Hard theme. Gnome in Plaid, Gruesome Son of a Bitch, Cerebral Cortex and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Yeah, bad form, Peter, bad form! Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I always found it fun to spot motifs and ideas from other scores. Batman Begins can be traced all the way back to Black Rain and Where Sleeping Dogs Lie. Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Yes, that is fun. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 This is good! But what is best in life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 3 hours ago, Richard said: Depends on what, Jay? On the specific instance! Usually it's charming (like most of Horner's) but sometimes you wish the composer had come up with something new instead of retreading old ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I self-plagarized once on an English paper. I declared it to the teacher beforehand and she was fine with it, but ultimately I learned my lesson: Self-plagarization will lead to lower quality work unless it manages to come naturally and unintentionally. If you're noticing that you wrote it before, that's probably not so good. My paper was rather clunky. It didn't end up being as good as I would have liked when I tried to integrate old material written as a newspaper article with new stuff to make a narrative essay. That taught me to always take an individual approach to everything and at least generally not try to repurpose old work in a new context (not to mention that it could be seen as lazy). This is not a judgement on film scores, but just some random general thoughts about my own experiences. I'm fine with "plagiarism" in music, really. The myriad Rogue One similarities to Williams themes or older Giacchino themes didn't bother me. Obviously, in music, there's a fine line between stylistic devices and true self-plagiarism -- it doesn't bother me every time Williams uses the "boom-tss"! Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I'm personally a fan of Horner's plagiarism. When Titanic's ass end goes upright and you hear Apollo 13, it's glorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,359 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I got a big smile when that action cue in Wolf Totem was basically Aliens and Apollo 13 remixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 51 minutes ago, Will said: I self-plagarized once on an English paper. I declared it to the teacher beforehand and she was fine with it. Possible because there isnt actually anything wrong most of the time with reusing something you did previously. Will and MikeH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 14, 2017 14 minutes ago, Rose Dawson said: I'm personally a fan of Horner's plagiarism. When Titanic's ass end goes upright and you hear Apollo 13, it's glorious. And that's a big ass - we're talking 20, 30,000 tons. MikeH, Gruesome Son of a Bitch, Pieter Boelen and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 They must have made a lot of those Apollo movies, but why was 13 so popular? I saw Apollo 18, which I thought was more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 43 minutes ago, Prerecorded Briefing said: And that's a big ass - we're talking 20, 30,000 tons. The militiaristic rendition of the love theme as they climb up to the top of the stern is some of Horner's best work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 The Death Of Titanic is a beast of a track! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Was the Titanic ever "alive"? Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Did early on, doesn't anymore since the early 2000's. Though when writing about a pice of music i think it needs to be addressed - be it self- or just plain plagiarism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I've never been particularly bothered by this, no. In fact, I kinda appreciate something like Horner's "danger motif" because it's his way of saying that dangerous or ominous situations run throughout all genres and styles -- a sort of 'call sign' that it's all part of the same cultural fabric. I regret not asking Horner about this when I interviewed him in 2013. I had planned to, but chickened out at the last moment (plus, my time was running out). Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I don't even think "self-plagiarism" is an actual term. Plagiarism is when you take something someone has done and pass it off as your own. That's completely different than taking your own idea and reusing them in a slightly altered context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeping Strings 2,358 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,504 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 19 minutes ago, Stefancos said: I don't even think "self-plagiarism" is an actual term. Plagiarism is when you take something someone has done and pass it off as your own. That's completely different than taking your own idea and reusing them in a slightly altered context. It IS an established term, but I know what you mean. 'Plagiarism' has legal aspects that do not apply when copying from yourself. I have more trouble with the term 'pre-exisiting', which is a bit like 'butter on bacon' -- 'existing' covers the meaning you're looking for, there's no need for the 'pre', unless something existed before existence itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 3 hours ago, Stefancos said: I don't even think "self-plagiarism" is an actual term. Plagiarism is when you take something someone has done and pass it off as your own. That's completely different than taking your own idea and reusing them in a slightly altered context. When "taking your own ideas and reusing them in a different context" is done in other media, nobody bats an eyelash. Are television's notorious "clip shows" an example of self-plagiarism? You change the channel when TNG's Shades of Gray comes on, don't you? It's cheap but it's not like they didn't have the right to do it. It's just sad it doesn't live up to the superior clip show "The Menagerie." When movies recycle footage, like in the Star Trek, Rocky, and Lord of the Rings franchises, that's not considered self-plagiarizing. Video games do it, too, but that also serves as a benefit of bringing unplayable forgotten games into the present. Imagine if Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy wrote a popular novel with one book publisher, then decided to change publishers, and this next book lifted entire passages of text from the earlier book. Would they have the right to self-plagiarize their own words, or do those words belong to the first publisher? Because nobody is asking for composers' heads when they do the same thing from themselves. And sometimes they can plagiarize other composers' music if it's done tastefully as homage or as a spoof. Airplane, Conan the Barbarian, 1941, Willow, and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull all include specific cases of this. What's more annoying? A composer self-plagiarizing from an earlier work, or film editors tracking in unrelated cues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 10 hours ago, Rose Dawson said: I'm personally a fan of Horner's plagiarism. When Titanic's ass end goes upright and you hear Apollo 13, it's glorious. Yeah, and when Apollo 13 takes off, you hear BRAINSTORM. Yeuch! And when the coast guard chases the boat, you hear GENESIS COUNTDOWN. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 17 hours ago, petaQ said: When "taking your own ideas and reusing them in a different context" is done in other media, nobody bats an eyelash. Are television's notorious "clip shows" an example of self-plagiarism? You change the channel when TNG's Shades of Gray comes on, don't you? It's cheap but it's not like they didn't have the right to do it. It's just sad it doesn't live up to the superior clip show "The Menagerie." When movies recycle footage, like in the Star Trek, Rocky, and Lord of the Rings franchises, that's not considered self-plagiarizing. Video games do it, too, but that also serves as a benefit of bringing unplayable forgotten games into the present. Imagine if Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy wrote a popular novel with one book publisher, then decided to change publishers, and this next book lifted entire passages of text from the earlier book. Would they have the right to self-plagiarize their own words, or do those words belong to the first publisher? Because nobody is asking for composers' heads when they do the same thing from themselves. And sometimes they can plagiarize other composers' music if it's done tastefully as homage or as a spoof. Airplane, Conan the Barbarian, 1941, Willow, and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull all include specific cases of this. What's more annoying? A composer self-plagiarizing from an earlier work, or film editors tracking in unrelated cues? Rambling disconnected thoughts...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 He has a point though. Reusing your own work is judged far more harshly in music that in other art forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,012 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 On 13.01.2017 at 11:05 PM, Jay said: Depends! Yup. Creative expansion of the known material can be fun. What I'm mostly bothered about is straight re-use of stuff with little or no variation. Karol - who still hasn't decided whether having V'ger material in Poltergeist is a good thing or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Stefancos said: He has a point though. Reusing your own work is judged far more harshly in music that in other art forms. I think that sad truth is not that it is reviled but plain boring to be offered the same solution the 20th time in a row - that goes for single artists like Horner but also the industry-at-large. The rationalizations for it are manifold but basically it's a neglected chance 80% of the time and 20% worthy explorations of an older idea. Nobody would complain if it were the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Daniel Clamp said: In fact, ST:FC was the first film since ST:TMP not to use recycled shots of any kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 5 hours ago, BloodBoal said: "Recycled footage" isn't self-plagiarism. That's... What I said. 5 hours ago, publicist said: Rambling disconnected thoughts...? No, just too many words for your ADHD to plow through. 5 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Except the example Wojo gave isn't really that great. Fuck your ma, fuck your pa, we're gonna fuck y'all to Arkansas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 15 minutes ago, petaQ said: That's... What I said. Then why bring that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 It was necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Get a room, you two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 4 hours ago, Richard said: In fact, ST:FC was the first film since ST:TMP not to use recycled shots of any kind. I never minded it. Even the ultra-beloved Wrath of Khan reused shots from the previous movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 That's because it had a budget that was one third of the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I've never minded the footage reuse. The Generations one stands out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I don't really mind it. I plagiar myself, every night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I never minded the Star Trek footage reuse, either. I was using it as an example. It is curious how the Klingon ambassador in Star Trek IV got ahold of the same footage the audience saw in Treks II and III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,527 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Bothan spies, the fucking turncoats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I guess the Bird of Prey was recording the destruction of the Enterprise, but where did the footage of the Klingons onboard the Enterprise come from? It's not entirely unlikely the Enterprise had some sort of 23rd Century black box which launched in a probe right before the ship was completely destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Who cares? Where does the outer space footage that Bond sees on a monitor in YOLT come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Maybe an 007 OOBE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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