Are you still bothered by self-plagiarism?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Not artists stealing from others, but from themselves...

 

Doesn't bother me at all these days. In the past I looked on it negatively, and now-a-days I find it kind of positive. It's fun hearing an idea explored in a new context.

 

Has growing senile also mellowed your sensibilities?

 

[Jay 37,351]

Depends!

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm okay with it now because the most notorious self-plagiarizer finally stopped doing it. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Depends!

 

Depends on what, Jay?

 

1 hour ago, petaQ said:

I'm okay with it now because the most notorious self-plagiarizer finally stopped doing it. 

 

By choice?

[Wojo 2,453]

Indirectly. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Don't think it ever bothered me, and it hasn't started.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I hated how Beethoven ripped off Michael Kamen's Die Hard theme.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Yeah, bad form, Peter, bad form!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I always found it fun to spot motifs and ideas from other scores. Batman Begins can be traced all the way back to Black Rain and Where Sleeping Dogs Lie. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Yes, that is fun. I agree.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

This is good!  But what is best in life?

[Jay 37,351]

3 hours ago, Richard said:

Depends on what, Jay?

 

On the specific instance! Usually it's charming (like most of Horner's) but sometimes you wish the composer had come up with something new instead of retreading old ground. 

[Will 2,215]

I self-plagarized once on an English paper. I declared it to the teacher beforehand and she was fine with it, but ultimately I learned my lesson: Self-plagarization will lead to lower quality work unless it manages to come naturally and unintentionally. If you're noticing that you wrote it before, that's probably not so good. My paper was rather clunky. It didn't end up being as good as I would have liked when I tried to integrate old material written as a newspaper article with new stuff to make a narrative essay. 

 

That taught me to always take an individual approach to everything and at least generally not try to repurpose old work in a new context (not to mention that it could be seen as lazy). 

 

This is not a judgement on film scores, but just some random general thoughts about my own experiences. I'm fine with "plagiarism" in music, really. The myriad Rogue One similarities to Williams themes or older Giacchino themes didn't bother me. 

 

Obviously, in music, there's a fine line between stylistic devices and true self-plagiarism -- it doesn't bother me every time Williams uses the "boom-tss"!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I'm personally a fan of Horner's plagiarism. When Titanic's ass end goes upright and you hear Apollo 13, it's glorious.

[Jay 37,351]

I got a big smile when that action cue in Wolf Totem was basically Aliens and Apollo 13 remixed

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

51 minutes ago, Will said:

I self-plagarized once on an English paper. I declared it to the teacher beforehand and she was fine with it.

 

Possible because there isnt actually anything wrong most of the time with reusing something you did previously. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

14 minutes ago, Rose Dawson said:

I'm personally a fan of Horner's plagiarism. When Titanic's ass end goes upright and you hear Apollo 13, it's glorious.

 

And that's a big ass - we're talking 20, 30,000 tons.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

They must have made a lot of those Apollo movies, but why was 13 so popular? I saw Apollo 18, which I thought was more fun.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

43 minutes ago, Prerecorded Briefing said:

And that's a big ass - we're talking 20, 30,000 tons.

 

The militiaristic rendition of the love theme as they climb up to the top of the stern is some of Horner's best work.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Death Of Titanic is a beast of a track!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Was the Titanic ever "alive"?

[publicist 4,643]

Did early on, doesn't anymore since the early 2000's. Though when writing about a pice of music i think it needs to be addressed - be it self- or just plain plagiarism. 

[Thor 7,495]

I've never been particularly bothered by this, no.

 

In fact, I kinda appreciate something like Horner's "danger motif" because it's his way of saying that dangerous or ominous situations run throughout all genres and styles -- a sort of 'call sign' that it's all part of the same cultural fabric. I regret not asking Horner about this when I interviewed him in 2013. I had planned to, but chickened out at the last moment (plus, my time was running out).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't even think "self-plagiarism" is an actual term. Plagiarism is when you take something someone has done and pass it off as your own. That's completely different than taking your own idea and reusing them in a slightly altered context.

[Sweeping Strings 2,357]

 

[Thor 7,495]

19 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I don't even think "self-plagiarism" is an actual term. Plagiarism is when you take something someone has done and pass it off as your own. That's completely different than taking your own idea and reusing them in a slightly altered context.

 

It IS an established term, but I know what you mean. 'Plagiarism' has legal aspects that do not apply when copying from yourself.

 

I have more trouble with the term 'pre-exisiting', which is a bit like 'butter on bacon' -- 'existing' covers the meaning you're looking for, there's no need for the 'pre', unless something existed before existence itself!

[Wojo 2,453]

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I don't even think "self-plagiarism" is an actual term. Plagiarism is when you take something someone has done and pass it off as your own. That's completely different than taking your own idea and reusing them in a slightly altered context.

 

When "taking your own ideas and reusing them in a different context" is done in other media, nobody bats an eyelash. Are television's notorious "clip shows" an example of self-plagiarism? You change the channel when TNG's Shades of Gray comes on, don't you? It's cheap but it's not like they didn't have the right to do it. It's just sad it doesn't live up to the superior clip show "The Menagerie."

 

When movies recycle footage, like in the Star Trek, Rocky, and Lord of the Rings franchises, that's not considered self-plagiarizing. Video games do it, too, but that also serves as a benefit of bringing unplayable forgotten games into the present. 

 

Imagine if Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy wrote a popular novel with one book publisher, then decided to change publishers, and this next book lifted entire passages of text from the earlier book. Would they have the right to self-plagiarize their own words, or do those words belong to the first publisher?

 

Because nobody is asking for composers' heads when they do the same thing from themselves. And sometimes they can plagiarize other composers' music if it's done tastefully as homage or as a spoof. Airplane, Conan the Barbarian, 1941, Willow, and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull all include specific cases of this. 

 

What's more annoying? A composer self-plagiarizing from an earlier work, or film editors tracking in unrelated cues?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

10 hours ago, Rose Dawson said:

I'm personally a fan of Horner's plagiarism. When Titanic's ass end goes upright and you hear Apollo 13, it's glorious.

 

Yeah, and when Apollo 13 takes off, you hear BRAINSTORM. Yeuch!

And when the coast guard chases the boat, you hear GENESIS COUNTDOWN.

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I love it.

[publicist 4,643]

17 hours ago, petaQ said:

 

When "taking your own ideas and reusing them in a different context" is done in other media, nobody bats an eyelash. Are television's notorious "clip shows" an example of self-plagiarism? You change the channel when TNG's Shades of Gray comes on, don't you? It's cheap but it's not like they didn't have the right to do it. It's just sad it doesn't live up to the superior clip show "The Menagerie."

 

When movies recycle footage, like in the Star Trek, Rocky, and Lord of the Rings franchises, that's not considered self-plagiarizing. Video games do it, too, but that also serves as a benefit of bringing unplayable forgotten games into the present. 

 

Imagine if Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy wrote a popular novel with one book publisher, then decided to change publishers, and this next book lifted entire passages of text from the earlier book. Would they have the right to self-plagiarize their own words, or do those words belong to the first publisher?

 

Because nobody is asking for composers' heads when they do the same thing from themselves. And sometimes they can plagiarize other composers' music if it's done tastefully as homage or as a spoof. Airplane, Conan the Barbarian, 1941, Willow, and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull all include specific cases of this. 

 

What's more annoying? A composer self-plagiarizing from an earlier work, or film editors tracking in unrelated cues?

 

Rambling disconnected thoughts...?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He has a point though. Reusing your own work is judged far more harshly in music that in other art forms.

[crocodile 8,006]

On 13.01.2017 at 11:05 PM, Jay said:

Depends!

Yup. Creative expansion of the known material can be fun.

 

What I'm mostly bothered about is straight re-use of stuff with little or no variation.

 

Karol - who still hasn't decided whether having V'ger material in Poltergeist is a good thing or not

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

He has a point though. Reusing your own work is judged far more harshly in music that in other art forms.

 

I think that sad truth is not that it is reviled but plain boring to be offered the same solution the 20th time in a row - that goes for single artists like Horner but also the industry-at-large. The rationalizations for it are manifold but basically it's a neglected chance 80% of the time and 20% worthy explorations of an older idea. Nobody would complain if it were the other way around.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

3 hours ago, Daniel Clamp said:

 

In fact, ST:FC was the first film since ST:TMP not to use recycled shots of any kind.

[Wojo 2,453]

5 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

"Recycled footage" isn't self-plagiarism. 

 

That's... What I said. 

5 hours ago, publicist said:

Rambling disconnected thoughts...?

 

No, just too many words for your ADHD to plow through. 

 

5 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Except the example Wojo gave isn't really that great.

 

Fuck your ma, fuck your pa, we're gonna fuck y'all to Arkansas... 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

15 minutes ago, petaQ said:

That's... What I said.

 

Then why bring that up?

[Wojo 2,453]

It was necessary. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

OK.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Get a room, you two.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

4 hours ago, Richard said:

In fact, ST:FC was the first film since ST:TMP not to use recycled shots of any kind.

 

I never minded it. Even the ultra-beloved Wrath of Khan reused shots from the previous movie.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

That's because it had a budget that was one third of the original.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I've never minded the footage reuse. The Generations one stands out though.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

I don't really mind it.

I plagiar myself, every night.

[Wojo 2,453]

I never minded the Star Trek footage reuse, either. I was using it as an example. 

 

It is curious how the Klingon ambassador in Star Trek IV got ahold of the same footage the audience saw in Treks II and III. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

Bothan spies, the fucking turncoats!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I guess the Bird of Prey was recording the destruction of the Enterprise, but where did the footage of the Klingons onboard the Enterprise come from? It's not entirely unlikely the Enterprise had some sort of 23rd Century black box which launched in a probe right before the ship was completely destroyed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who cares?

 

Where does the outer space footage that Bond sees on a monitor in YOLT come from?

[Wojo 2,453]

Maybe an 007 OOBE.