Jump to content

STAR WARS - Live To Projection Concerts


TownerFan

Recommended Posts

The event details for the Empire Strikes Back have been published. Seems like the extended orchestrations and the female choir are not used, which was to be expected.

 

It's not that the quality of the performance will necessarily be afflicted, but personally I enjoy the Mahler-esque aspects of many of those concerts in terms of the deployment of large forces on stage. Oh well....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea there was no chance they'd bring a choir on stage for the one cue that uses it.


I wonder how well they will replicate the synth sound in The Magic Tree

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Yea there was no chance they'd bring a choir on stage for the one cue that uses it.

 

The choir I get.

 

But parts of the film also call for two keyboards, three harps and added woodwinds, which the concert omits.

 

They do, however, include some of the added percussion (two bass drums) and have all flutes double on piccolos instead of just one, in order to get that grinding sound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For some reason I dismissed all of the concerts because I didn't want to drive back and forth every week.  It didn't even cross my mind to just go to one of  them.  I would have gone to Empire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Jay said:

You still can, it hasn't happened yet

 

Unfortunately I am unable due to other things going on.  Had I acted on it earlier I could have locked that date in.  But, I may consider Force Awakens.

 

Edit:  Looks like I'm busy that day as well. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, aviazn said:

Lovely review in the New Yorker from critic/composer Russell Platt, who praises the event and then takes a broader turn:

 

 

 

D'aw, I love how he ends the review

 

Quote

Growing older with John Williams, I can only wish him good health and high honor, so that he can score the final movie of the last “Star Wars” trilogy, and we can continue our journey together. Let’s blow this thing and go home.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice to read a realistic review of Star Wars by a mature adult, not fanboys in Chewbacca socks going on about the movies being the most important part of their lives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/21/2017 at 8:10 AM, Chen G. said:

The event details for the Empire Strikes Back have been published. Seems like the extended orchestrations and the female choir are not used, which was to be expected.

 

It's not that the quality of the performance will necessarily be afflicted, but personally I enjoy the Mahler-esque aspects of many of those concerts in terms of the deployment of large forces on stage. Oh well....

 

Damn, that's a disappointment.  I know 99% of people won't notice but still disappointing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not like they're huge forces to recreate, but yeah.

 

Even the Lord of the Rings performances, which have been known to reach gargantuan sizes, don't reinstitute all of the unusual orchestrations in that (two timpanists, double brass, etc...).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, when you're staging Gurre Leider or something like that, you kind of have to do those reductions. Just like recruiting twice the trumpets (or the entire brass section) just for the charge of the Rohirrim is just not feasible.

 

In the meanwhile, the program for Return of the Jedi was published. No choir is mentioned. :( I don't get it, it's an amplified performance so they could have got away with a small choir like in the original recording. It doesn't even require singers of unusual range.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An instrumental version of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOSdfB5YFec ? That's so strange to imagine, I'd almost want to go just to hear what that would be like. Do we know at all if John Williams has any involvement with these, even if it's getting a copy of the score and getting his thumbs up?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not on the level of the music itself or the performance, those were to be expected to be good.

 

The issues are rather on the level of the production: The film is presented in its special edition; Williams' personal engagement in the project seems to be small; The music follows the finished film (replete with edits, muted music, etc); diegetic music is not performed; choir and unique orchestrations are removed; the forces are drastically reduced; etcetra.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder if Victory Celebration will be live or played through speakers? The choral elements in ROTJ, at least, would surely be recordings (though how they extract those from the sessions is unknown, unless they find the original multi-tracks, which we're told are "lost" in the salt mines).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The issues are rather on the level of the production: The film is presented in its special edition; Williams' personal engagement in the project seems to be small; The music follows the finished film (replete with edits, muted music, etc); diegetic music is not performed; choir and unique orchestrations are removed; the forces are drastically reduced; etcetra.

 

Williams was consulted and gave his stamp of approval to the finished printed scores for all four films. None of this could be done without involving him and having his okay, so yes, he was involved.

 

It must be noted that most, if not all, live to projection concerts are prepared using the finished mix of the films as the guide to build the new concert score, so in most cases that means replicating the edits and cuts all throughout. Don't ask me why, it's just the way it's done for every film concert (as far as I know) and it seems JW is okay with it. Having the source music not being performed live is mostly because it would sound very awkward and sometimes it's almost impossible to replicate (it's also meant to be just background music). Same goes with choir and some of the oddest instrumentation choices--while it would be super-cool to have woodwinds in 5 and two grand pianos for the snow battle sequence in Empire or having the 12-male bass voices for the Emperor scenes in Jedi, this is just not practical for pure logistical reasons, especially if it's just one or two cues, so adaptations have to be made. These concerts are thought to be tailored for regular symphony orchestra size (with the occasional additional stuff in some sections).

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For TESB, the one cue with choir (when they approach Cloud City and there's women's voices) I expect will just play with no choir element at all.

 

For TFA, I wouldn't be surprised if they do the Snoke music the same way - there just is not choir - or if they have access to the full mulitrack and play the choir through the speakers.  Either way would probably be fine, its kind of inconsequential.

 

ROTJ is a tricky one - I dunno what they're gonna do.  I don't BELIEVE the multi-tracks had survived, and even if they have, the choir would be on its own clean stem anyway.  MM mentioned that for Jurassic Park concerts, they pulled the multitracks so he could see if they could include the choir in the film's audio mix for the cues there that have it, and when he pulled them and had them transferred, he found the choir was too tied to the other orchestra sounds so couldn't be used, so those concerts just don't have choir at all.  ROTJ might have to be the same way, I suppose.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

 

Williams was consulted and gave his stamp of approval to the finished printed scores for all four films. None of this could be done without involving him and having his okay, so yes, he was involved.

 

Do you have any proof of this statement?

 

Quote

 in most cases that means replicating the edits and cuts all throughout. Don't ask me why, it's just the way it's done for every film concert (as far as I know)

 

Well, that's just not true at all.  Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Matrix. and all three Lord of the Rings all feature unused music restored for their concerts, just to name  6 examples... and Back To The Future even had new music written for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Synth choir!

 

5 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

It must be noted that most, if not all, live to projection concerts are prepared using the finished mix of the films as the guide to build the new concert score, so in most cases that means replicating the edits and cuts all throughout. Don't ask me why, it's just the way it's done for every film concert (as far as I know)

 

Because restoring unused music would mean you would also have to restored the deleted material these unused bits were meant to underscore?

 

Of course, that doesn't excuse replicating tracked music...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Do you have any proof of this statement?

Yes! FSM Online just published an interview with David Newman. Here's what it says:

 

Quote

 

To prepare the four Star Wars scores for the world premiere, a large team, including Newman, went to work on what he calls “forensics.” Newman explored Williams’ original scores, but he also needed to piece together many disparate parts, combining Williams’ original manuscripts with any additions added from the podium during the recording sessions. A bigger hurdle, however, was matching the scores and parts to the film’s music editing. The process of preparing the scores for live performance became an investigation to “find the cues and put it together,” says Newman, adding, “then it’s all re-engraved, and then you have to do parts and you have to proof. We have a large group of people here making sure that we’re vetting this as well as we possibly can.”

 

In the end, it was Williams who did the final vetting of the scores after the “forensics” were completed, providing his stamp of approval.

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/fsmonline/story.cfm?maID=6156&issueID=153&page=2

 

Quote

Well, that's just not true at all.  Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Matrix. and all three Lord of the Rings all feature unused music restored for their concerts, just to name  6 examples... and Back To The Future even had new music written for it.

 

You're right, I forgot about those. However, it seems more the exception to the rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, TownerFan said:

Yes! FSM Online just published an interview with David Newman. Here's what it says:

 

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/fsmonline/story.cfm?maID=6156&issueID=153&page=2

 

 

Heh, I literally just read that cover story before checking this thread. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ROTJ would be a very weird score without choir! Almost every scene with the Emperor has choir, the finale has choir, and the Dark Side Beckons basically relies on choir.

 

I highly doubt they scanned anything from the multi-tracks for these concerts, and as Jay said the choir was probably not clean. The tapes might not exist anymore and I doubt they'd go to that effort unless scanning ALL the tapes for archival reasons.

 

Personally I'd be surprised if the latter didn't happen the moment Disney acquired the company, just as they commissioned restorations of the OT (that we're yet to see).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

I'm pretty sure the male choir in Jedi was recorded together with orchestra, so I don't think it could be isolated as a guide-track.

 

I think you're exactly correct

 

14 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Synth choir!

 

I believe that is how some concerts handle the lack of a live choir, indeed.  However, It's hard to predict if they will do that for TESB, ROTJ, or TFA....

 

11 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

Yes! FSM Online just published an interview with David Newman. Here's what it says:

 

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/fsmonline/story.cfm?maID=6156&issueID=153&page=2

 

Brilliant, thanks!!

 

Quote

You're right, I forgot about those. However, it seems more the exception to the rule.

 

Oh, I dunno.  Those were just 6 examples off the top of my dome and there have only been what, maybe 30 films that have received this treatment?  I'd say its pretty common for the concert shows to not EXACTLY match the final cut of the film down to the last note.

 

9 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

6 examples hardly are an exception!

 

I agree.

 

8 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Jedi would be a very weird score without choir! Almost every scene with the Emperor has choir, the finale has choir, and the musical crescendo of the series (The Dark Side Beckons) basically relies on it.

 

Yea, you're totally right  I wonder what they're gonna do.  I might be able to go to NYC for it and find out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

It must be noted that most, if not all, live to projection concerts are prepared using the finished mix of the films as the guide to build the new concert score, so in most cases that means replicating the edits and cuts all throughout. Don't ask me why, it's just the way it's done for every film concert (as far as I know) and it seems JW is okay with it. 

 

But we have seen live performances that reinstitute unused sections (including parts that were not on the album) like the Lord of the Rings concerts. Although, to be fair, even with those there was/is a learning curve of sorts.

 

Also, those concerts show that it is possible to amass large forces (they're performed at a minimum of 230 performers, I believe) and while it doesnt necessarily effect the quality of the performance, its staging does add this larger-than-life Mahler-esque quality that I think suits those concerts well.

 

The forces here are surprisingly small, even compared to the recorded ensemble. Normally I don't mind, but something like the male choir in Return of the Jedi is used a bit too frequently for its ommision not to be frowned upon, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very cool that JW reviewed all the sheet music for IV-VII, probably in the midst of writing TLJ. Wonder if that impacted his writing, or if he drew some musical connections he might have otherwise forgotten?

 

I'm just glad he's still conscious of Luke & Leia's Theme. I'll be devo if we never hear that theme again. Even if a physical reunion never happens surely there'll be scenes where the two think about one another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

But we have seen live performances thar reinstitute unused sections (including parts that were not on the album) like the Lord of the Rings concerts. Although, to be fair, even with those there is  a learning curve of sorts.

Sure, sure. Don't take my comment too literally. From what it is my experience, it seems they go for the music as conformed to the final edit more often than not, even when it sounds awkward (i.e. Aliens).  I'm wondering if there's also a matter of publishing/sync rights when it comes to these things. I guess it's mostly an artistic decision from the composer and the performers, sometimes it sounds okay to replicate the film edits, other times they feel it's better to restore unused/cut sections.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Nice to hear that JW seemingly revised the sheet music for IV-VII in the midst of writing TLJ. I wonder if that impacted his writing, or if he thought to draw some musical connections he might have otherwise forgot?

 

That is interesting. Maybe there will be something to be found in that score which will be like those quotes of Bespin during the Battle of the Heroes.

 

Although, again, Williams is always trying to write as much of the score based on new thematic material, even if that leads to continuity issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure most of the time he was cringing, wondering what he was thinking. Meanwhile, fans salivate over every masterful note.

 

Williams occasionally seems almost embarrassed by his older scores/themes. He even joked about it in that Travis Smiley interview for TFA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What, that "dare we use the Imperial March here?" comment?

 

Again, there is not much guesswork to be made here. Williams is consistent in that he is quite vocal (and proud) of writing scores that are based predominantly on new thematic material with each entry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah, the comment about "shedding all that skin" was far more revealing about his state of mind regarding older works.

 

JJ: "It's like he's almost embarrassed to go back and almost revisit work he's done."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, they are from a totally different period of his professional life, and his style changed since than. Any composer would be hard-pressed to wed those two styles together within a single score, so maybe having only sparse quotes of his existing entries is warranted here.

 

As for JJ, we know that in keeping with his remake effort, he even told Williams to "connect it to the earlier films" so he was naturally all for quotes of existing themes.

 

28 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I'm just glad he's still conscious of Luke & Leia's Theme. I'll be devo if we never hear that theme again. Even if a physical reunion never happens surely there'll be scenes where the two think about one another.

 

I don't imagine we'll here it and even if we do, it will probably only be a brief cameo. Its barely in Return of the Jedi, as it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TS: What's the challenge of adding to that glossary of themes?

JW: When I had to quote myself from 30 years ago, I felt a little uncomfortable (laughing) He said, when you see Princess Leia you have to play her theme! I said, 'who was that guy who wrote the theme?' I don't even know him... I shred all that skin! But it's right... I think the familiarity and friendliness of the thematic identification with the characters is the right thing to do."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIfWfengo3E&t=17m10s

 

Quite a funny moment, but yeah his preference will always be writing new music over repeating older stuff. He made a real point that only 7 minutes of the score was old material.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And he made a similar point before the release of The Phantom Menace.

 

Among other things, its important for the Academy Awards. Not that I think that's why he works the way he does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Also, those concerts show that it is possible to amass large forces (they're performed at a minimum of 230 performers, I believe) and while it doesnt necessarily effect the quality of the performance, its staging does add this larger-than-life Mahler-esque quality that I think suits those concerts well.

 

The forces here are surprisingly small, even compared to the recorded ensemble. Normally I don't mind, but something like the male choir in Return of the Jedi is used a bit too frequently for its ommision not to be frowned upon, I think.

 

Well, you have to be flexible, the important thing is staying true to the sound. It must be noted that the orchestra as heard in the original 1977 recording is surely big, but it's in line with the conventional symphony orchestra size, save for the extra horns/tuba and the additional unusual percussion:

 

starwarsattendance_800.jpg

In Empire and Jedi, I think Williams used augmented brass and woodwinds in some spots, but it's not like he had 200 musicians playing all the time. That means that a regular symphony orchestra should be able to replicate a very similar sound during these film concert performances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, like I said, its not really an issue that should very much affect the quality of the performance, but it would have been nice if they could match the size of the orchestra from the recording of Empire and Jedi, which is over 100 pieces, plus a small choir for the latter.

 

Its really not such a big undertaking, is what I meant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.