bollemanneke 3,342 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 This has been intriguing me for quite some time now and I'd be very interested in your reactions. I've attended four live to projection concerts in the past three years. And on three occasions, I made one striking observation: the strings sound completely different. It's very difficult to put this into words, but a vain attempt follows: On the recordings, the strings are there, but it's always just 'the strings'. Take 'Filch's Fond Remembrance' from Harry Potter 1. You kind of hear cellos or violas, but they're very vague. In my concert, the cellos actually 'sang' and sounded like cellos, not like distant string instruments playing low notes. In LOTR2, I heard marcato notes for violin during the Fellowship theme, which, again, are present in the recording, but sound quite muted and hardly audible. And even if I hear strings on commercial recordings, I can never tell the players apart. When I attend concerts, I can clearly hear multiple violins and violas creating the 'general strings' sound, but on recordings, they seem to come from far, far away. Is it just my ears? Why does this never happen to woodwinds or brass (maybe to bassons and clarinets, but never in such an extreme way)? Are there other people here who also do a double take when they listen to live performances of violins/violas/cellos playing in unison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Probably has to do mainly with the recording/mixing of the OSTs: the way the mics are positioned, the added reverb, etc. Add to that the fact that the orchestra performing it live is different from the one heard on the album recording, the place where the concert is taking place, the way the players are positioned which may be a bit different than they were for the film recording, where your own seat is, etc. Lots of different factors to take into account. In any case, the music you hear on CDs has always been tinkered with in one way or another. When you hear it live, you hear it untouched, in its purest form! bollemanneke and Ricard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Several reasons. First of all your ears are superior at location detection and the strings are laid out spanning quite a large physical area though speakers/headphones will reduce the sound origination to two (or more if surround sound) locations rather than throughout the stage. Second, there are subharmonic frequencies in the double basses that are not present in a recording (even with a subwoofer). This extends to all the instruments that their are sympathetic vibrations between the instruments that wouldn't be present in a recording and overtones that are simultaneously sounded and very difficult to capture in a recording. Third, you are probably listening to a compressed audio file (even a CD has compression) so lose audio fidelity that the real instrument heard live maintains. This is a noticeable loss of fidelity around the sheen and fullness of the sound. Fourth you are probably hearing the live strings in an acoustically ideal environment where the sound reverberates throughout the hall so you hear its reflections too. I believe this applies to all instruments. A resonate brass chord heard live is never captured as well in recordings. bollemanneke and Jay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Fifth...you are seeing the musicians bow their instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Sixth, ignore the fifth. Will and bollemanneke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Seventh, idiot. mstrox and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 4 hours ago, Blumenkohl said: Fifth...you are seeing the musicians bow their instruments. Dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 With me it's the other way around. With a live performance, I always feel that the string section doesn't have the power to match the brass, percussion or the piccolo runs. I prefer recordings. There they can sound as loud as you want it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Thanks. So why are some things never picked up in recordings (like those vibrations mentioned earlier?) Don't we have the equipment to properly capture those sounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I've never heard of equipment not being able to record what the human ear can hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 It's mainly because those incompetent musicians are using lower quality instruments to the superior ones you hear in recordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post karelm 2,912 Posted March 23, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2017 7 hours ago, bollemanneke said: Thanks. So why are some things never picked up in recordings (like those vibrations mentioned earlier?) Don't we have the equipment to properly capture those sounds? This is a very complicated question but worth an explanation. There are a wide range of very good microphones but their aren't any mics that are great at everything. Something that will work well with strings like a Neumann has a warm sound but alot of bleed through and doesn't record behind it. You would not use this mic for loud instruments like percussion, winds, or brass. Ribbon mics have a different approach and work well for brass. The end result is that a good recording is the combination of many mics each with its own sets of pros and cons that are then mixed together to achieve a balanced mix that approximates the live sound. Additionally, there are phase issues that occur if the exact same sound is heard by two mics (such as a bleed). So what many engineers do, is they remove frequencies from the recording of that instrument where the instrument range doesn't really exist. For example, the lowest note a violin can play is the G below middle C. Some engineers would drop out all frequencies below that to limit phasing of the viola, cello, double bass signals that are picked up to some degree with the violin mic (that is mic bleed). This reduces the aural quality of the sound heard on the violin mic but also reduces the phasing issue. Some engineers solve this problem with using a stereo mic pair to capture everything but some consider this a middle of the road approach. Another important consideration is that each instrument has a different sweet spot where the overlapping frequencies of the overtones merge and give that instrument it's characteristic sound. As an orchestral player (and audio recorder for some orchestras) I sometimes had the horns placed in front of me where their bells face towards me. It is not a pleasant sound. The sound of the horn is based on reflections from the rear and quite a distance in front. Similarly, a violin has a harsh rosin sound at 4 feet but at 10 feet sounds more like a violin. Timpani is best recorded at about 12 feet above. If the mic is only one foot above which sometimes happens in studio sessions, many of the instruments frequencies haven't overlapped so are lost in what would be a loud but not characteristic sound for the instrument. You get the point, this is a difficult task to get it all right and even then, there will be trade offs. None of this is the case in a live performance. A great engineer is able to simulate or minimize these drawbacks. The most ideal sound in general is center about 8 to 12 rows behind the conductor. Those are typically the most expensive and best balanced seats. Front row seats are not balanced. Engineers and producers also have different philosophies on how to approach all these issues and even what the desired sound should be. Jay, MikeH, bollemanneke and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 16 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Probably has to do mainly with the recording/mixing of the OSTs: the way the mics are positioned, the added reverb, etc. This, I don't really think there's much of a mystery outside of this explanation. And it's not just film music. If you listen to any orchestral recording it's the exact same thing. I remember listening to a few recordings of Sibelius' Symphony No. 5 and there is a part in the last movement, during the famous "swan call" sequence, where the basses slap the strings with their bows, and I was surprised to how much this popped out in the live performance so much more than on a recording. The balance of the orchestra is not going to be perfect in a recording from moment to moment because you're trying to cater to the woodwinds, brass, strings, etc at any given time depending on the piece. So it's not just the strings. There are recordings, film music or otherwise, where flutes, clarinets, bassoons, etc, are way more up front than they would be normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,346 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 @karelm is making some really interesting, quality, informative posts in this thread! bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Indeed. And am I right in saying that orchestras in general used to sound more detailed in older recordings? For instance, when I listen to the remastered Jaws, or even Back to the Future 1, I always have the impression that, just like in a live performance, real people are playing the notes, but in new recordings, everything sounds so... perfect and unnatural. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 You're question makes sense, but orchestral recordings sound terrific these days (for the most part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, bollemanneke said: Indeed. And am I right in saying that orchestras in general used to sound more detailed in older recordings? For instance, when I listen to the remastered Jaws, or even Back to the Future 1, I always have the impression that, just like in a live performance, real people are playing the notes, but in new recordings, everything sounds so... perfect and unnatural. Does that make sense? Recordings these days often sound sterile. Not only are orchestra noises like page turns, creaking chairs and breathing removed. But the way music is often recorded now, groups of musicians recorded separately and everything combined in the edit suite can make you lose the feeling thats it's an orchestra, in a room, with microphones. For film music that probably isnt really seen as an issue. Since it isnt music composed to be listened to on it's own. But yeah it sucks. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Rent a concert hall, bring your hi-fi system with you and play your CDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Many recordings in the '70s had a dry sound with little ambience and reverberation. A long time ago, a friend of mine thought Star Wars ('A New Hope' to you, guys) was recorded with a chamber orchestra precisely because of that dry sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 No other Williams score sounds quite like Star Wars. Especially not how it sounded on the original LP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Alexcremers said: Many recordings in the '70s had a dry sound with little ambience and reverberation. A long time ago, a friend of mine thought Star Wars ('A New Hope' to you, guys) was recorded with a chamber orchestra precisely because of that dry sound. Well, those LPs where meant to be played on hi-fi systems using tube amplifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Weren't those audiophile back then? I doubt even in the 70's film score recordings were aiming for the audiophile market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 This thread puts me in the mood for some quality Telarc recordings. The public has been lied to by the sound of film scores for half a century! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Can I recommend Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 with Omandy conducting. Stellar Telarc recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Haven't heard it in years. I'd forgotten how lovely the slow "second movement" is. Camille is at his best when eschewing Teutonic heaviness for his native French sensuality! That countermelody when the theme repeats the first time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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