Sandor 796 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 It just occured to me that Williams didn't infuse his scores with choir parts since 2005's Revenge Of The Sith. Ok, I know there is some subtle choral writing in scores like Lincoln or The Force Awakens, but that is limited to a single cue and used more atmospheric as opposed to actually supporting central themes like it did in ROTS. I know Williams didn't write a lot of scores since 2005, but the 12 years gap is substantial and noteworthy especially since scores like The BFG, TFA or KOTCS were easy candidates for prevalent choir additions and would have possible enhanced them even further. I've always felt that cues like Call Of The Crystal or Dream Country would have been even more interesting if supported by a choir. So is it just as simple that Williams felt the scores since ROTS wouldn't benefit from more prominent choral parts? Was it a deliberate and creative choice? Or did the four scoring assignments in 2005 take its toll and Williams adjusted his composing and arranging choices since then? Or am I just overthinking it? Not Mr. Big and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,637 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I think ROTS had choir because George Lucas loved the epic-sounding Duel of the Fates and wanted a repeat. If you go through each decade of Williams' stuff, there are large swaths of time that there is no "big choir." I'm sure he's not averse, but he's waiting for the right time to use it. The sensibility of modern films and modern scores certainly pooh-poohs big choir to some extent as well. Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 796 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 minute ago, mstrox said: I think ROTS had choir because George Lucas loved the epic-sounding Duel of the Fates and wanted a repeat. If you go through each decade of Williams' stuff, there are large swaths of time that there is no "big choir." I'm sure he's not averse, but he's waiting for the right time to use it. The sensibility of modern films and modern scores certainly pooh-poohs big choir to some extent as well. Probably true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted April 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2017 My favorite use of choir in a Williams score is definitely Close Encounters, where it mostly serves as subtle coloration. That's generally my favorite way he uses choir, to add an "otherworldliness" on top of the orchestra. Once, MikeH and crumbs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 796 Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 Just now, Disco Stu said: My favorite use of choir in a Williams score is definitely Close Encounters, where it mostly serves as subtle coloration. That's generally my favorite way he uses choir, to add an "otherworldliness" on top of the orchestra. Yes, that's why I think The BFG could have benefited so much from this coloring, almost literally in this regard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,287 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Weirdly enough I was thinking this today when Look Down, Lord shuffled onto my iPod. After being surprised by the extensive use of choir in the Star Wars prequels, I became accustomed to that 'sound' in the series, so it was a mild disappointment that TFA basically abandoned the prequel style. I'd love it if there were extended choral passages in TLJ but I don't think that's the film Johnson's made (nor do we have any hints of choir being involved thus far). In hindsight, I think Williams heavily relied on chorus in the prequels to provide the human voice and drama that was clearly absent from the films themselves. From a selfish perspective I wish he'd return to that prequel style of being indulgent and overscoring, unlike TFA which fit the film like a glove but rarely drew attention to itself. The recent recording of Dry Your Tears, Afrika reminded me just how incredible Williams is at writing for the human voice; quite often it's more engrossing than his writing for orchestra. He's seemingly abandoned the use of choir as a 'primary texture' since ROTS. No idea what changed but it's a pity. toothless and Cerebral Cortex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I believe they were hunted down and destroyed after Revenge of the Sith. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Williams simply isn't a composer who relies on a choir that much. It's interesting JJ didn't ask him to use one like he did for the Prequels. But its the right choice, imo Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Naïve Old Fart 9,488 Posted April 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2017 21 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: My favorite use of choir in a Williams score is definitely Close Encounters, where it mostly serves as subtle coloration. That's generally my favorite way he uses choir, to add an "otherworldliness" on top of the orchestra. FAMILY PILOT is a good example of this. Gruesome Son of a Bitch, Disco Stu and MikeH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, crumbs said: Weirdly enough I was thinking this today when Look Down, Lord shuffled onto my iPod. After being surprised by the extensive use of choir in the Star Wars prequels, I became accustomed to that 'sound' in the series, so it was a mild disappointment that TFA basically abandoned the prequel style. I'd love it if there were extended choral passages in TLJ but I don't think that's the film Johnson's made (nor do we have any hints of choir being involved thus far). He's keeping it for Episode IX, for the grand choral rendition of Rey's theme! 00'33 - 00'35: She-is-the... 00'35 - 00'37: Cho-sen-One! (Oh, oh, Chosen-One, Chosen-One!) 00'38 - 00'41: Buuuuuut-she-won't-chose-the-light... (Oh, oh, gentle light, gentle light!) 00'41 - 00'46: Will... she ever come baaaaack... 00'46 - 00'51: Baaaack... from-the-dark-side... 00'51 - 00'56: Baaaack... from-the-dark-side... 00'56 - 01'00: Baaaack... from-the-dark-side... 01'00 - 01'05: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'05 - 01'10: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'10 - 01'14: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'14 - 01'18: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'18 - 01'22: side, side, side, side, side! Will, Manakin Skywalker, Disco Stu and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted April 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: He's keeping it for Episode IX, for the grand choral rendition of Rey's theme! 00'33 - 00'35: She-is-the... 00'35 - 00'37: Cho-sen-One! (Oh, oh, Chosen-One, Chosen-One!) 00'38 - 00'41: Buuuuuut-she-won't-chose-the-light... (Oh, oh, gentle light, gentle light!) 00'41 - 00'46: Will... she ever come baaaaack... 00'46 - 00'51: Baaaack... from-the-dark-side... 00'51 - 00'56: Baaaack... from-the-dark-side... 00'56 - 01'00: Baaaack... from-the-dark-side... 01'00 - 01'05: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'05 - 01'10: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'10 - 01'14: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'14 - 01'18: Do-come-back... to-the-light-side... 01'18 - 01'22: side, side, side, side, side! Forget the choir, Williams is making his debut as a vocalist in VIII! I got my hands on the leaked tracklist: 1. For Daisy 2. Rey's Theme (Vocal Version) 3. Luv U Daisy 4. Will U Be Mine? 5. He's Finn-ished, Rey 6. How Do You Feel About Turtlenecks, Daisy? 7. You Stay Away From Her!!! (Kylo Ren's Theme) 8. I Can't Quit You 9. She Loves Me, She Loves Me Not, She Loves Me 10. Fresh as a Daisy Damien F, Incanus, Once and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: 6. How Do You Feel About Turtlenecks, Daisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted April 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2017 For the sake of his health, Williams must never see this picture. Marian Schedenig, Cerebral Cortex, crumbs and 7 others 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,488 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Incanus 5,713 Posted April 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2017 Williams' reaction to Daisy's turtleneck Once, Jay, Damien F and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,287 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 11. Daisy's of our Lives 12. Three's Company (Poe's Theme) 13. 'Only I Will Score You!' 14. Daised and Confused 15. The Baton Scene & Finale Cerebral Cortex and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Maybe LA Hollywood choirs just really suck? Plus their licencing fees are pretty hefty and stringent from what I've heard. I know that John Powell separates his choral segments into individual tracks to avoid them getting credit for the entire track. I doubt any of this would be a concern for Williams though. He's probably just moved away from it stylistically. crumbs and Naïve Old Fart 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,287 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Mr. Williams needs to move back to it, stylistically! Fees be damned; Disney's forking out the cash anyway. 4 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said: Maybe LA Hollywood choirs just really suck? What choir performed on the new Williams/Spielberg release? They were very impressive I thought. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said: I doubt any of this would be a concern for Williams though. He's probably just moved away from it stylistically. I think it largely depends on what the director and Williams think to be appropriate for any given film. E.g. TFA has choir only for Snoke in the deep basso profundo register which draws connection to the Sith and Palpatine specifically which seems like a obvious connection and is there to give Snoke a unique ambience with a sense of continuity with the SW safa and a feel of mystery at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,488 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Now, just a damn minute! 8 I CAN'T QUIT YOU 15 DAISED AND CONFUSED Hmm, any Led Zep fans here, today? I wonder if Ridley's turtle neck is made from...cashmere? Cashmere, geddit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,472 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 No budget. No choir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 The way Williams uses the choir in his scores (which could probably be deemed more traditionally rooted usage than, say, Powell's efforts) lends a certain exaggerated dramatic effect to a piece of music, a sentiment of grandeur. I believe the oft frowned upon term epic might apply here very well, since the choir and its dramatic effect were a substantial factor in many a Greek theatrical epoch. Remember that in classical music, the choir was reserved for these very evocations of grandeur, paired with some form of epic storytelling - masses, requiems, passions, almost sacral symphonies (e.g. Mahler's/Beethoven's Ninth). To be honest it's this connotation that renders a lot of modern choir writing in film scores to appear a bit clumsy and tongue-in-cheek, in my opinion. The Star Wars Prequels (and the Harry Potter films too) were films that (regardless of their failures) fell back upon the tradition of grand, epic storytelling, the former in an almost biblical fashion. And even then, notice how Williams reserves the choir for certain climactic points in the dramatic arch for maximum effect. I think TFA and the rest of Williams' recent film work simply can't compare to the former because of the radical differences in storytelling, drama and overall mood. (And aside from that, it's also a reason why I would prefer the prequels to TFA).* *All of this could be a load of bullshite. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Could be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Just kidding, you have a point. Not sure about your "radical differences in story telling" argument though. Could you explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Just kidding, you have a point. Not sure about your "radical differences in story telling" argument though. Could you explain? Well, the prequels are this grand epic biblical drama, with an actual story arch, etc. An average screenplay can't compare to that in terms of development and structure. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I didnt know you were a prequel lover. In terms of scale you are correct. In terms of development and structure there is a lot one could say against the Prequels' use of choir. It's application is somewhat inconsistent to say the least. Being brought out in epic proportions in the first film in a way that's never really watched by the other two. I also think that the use of the big epic choir was something of a fad in the late 90's/early 200's. With the Choir Of The Apocalypse being used frequently by many a media ventures project, and of course Howard Shore. I fully expect the next SW film and especially Episode 9 to use the choir more than TFA did. I actually like how JJ had Williams do a back to basics approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 KORAAAAAAHHHHHH RATAHMAAAAAAHHHHHHH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Will and Disco Stu 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artguy360 1,842 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 There were some pretty good uses of choir in the Bridge of Spies score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,270 Posted April 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 14, 2017 10 minutes ago, artguy360 said: There were some pretty good uses of choir in the Bridge of Spies score. MikeH, Will, Disco Stu and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 13 hours ago, BloodBoal said: KORAYYYYYYYYYYY SAVAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSS! This must happen in Ep 9! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 The (probably) Williams portion of the TLJ trailer has choir. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Who's Ebbingus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Dude, he just "liked" the post. "Score a Score" is the company that posted it. And what a stupid name for a company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 He must obviously die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 What does Irwin Allen have to do with Williams choir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,472 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Who the hell is this Irwin Allen??? Lost in Space Land of the Giants Poseidon Adventure Towering Inferno Okay, okay, okay.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 The Time Tunnel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,472 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, Selina Kyle said: The Time Tunnel... Ah yes... I'm really not familiar with the TV scores of John Williams (to be honest, I really don't care about any of them) So it's a great collaboration after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,973 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Choirs are best when used sparingly and in some more specific and defined way. And, better yet, in an unexpected way. The worst way to go is just to throw them in to create those big moments. It just makes everything sound so cheap, funnily enough. Makes big expensive film music of today sound like cheap trailer rush job. There's too much choir being used like that in modern score so I'm all for no vocals at all in big scores. Plus there are not that many composers who can really use a choir in an interesting way. As much as I enjoy much of Michael Giacchino's score, I do tend to cringe when I hear his choral works. Karol Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,287 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Williams' understanding of using choir is far superior to that of other composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Even Shore's? toothless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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