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antovolk

Hans Zimmer's DUNKIRK

790 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Another?

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, Interstellar just to name a few

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15 minutes ago, Jwfan2234 said:

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, Interstellar just to name a few

 

Dark Knight Rises a masterpiece? It's easily his worst film and doesn't deserve to menstioned among his great films. 

 

Dunkirk looks like it's going to be great though.

 

and Spitfires!!

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It does fit that description in its purest sense, before the word became overused.  The climactic Wall Street fight sits comfortably with some of the most well executed and impressive large scale cinematic battles of the past.  It's Nolan putting every other DC and Marvel climax to shame.  Only a few buildings and one bridge are destroyed or damaged during it.  Plus, I was in it.

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There's substance to it. To the story of Gotham cut off from the rest of the world. It isn't just a final act CGI bust up.

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13 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

That's a good way of putting it.

I have always found it interesting that those 3 films give Bruce Wayne (and his Batman creation) a very symmetric art. It starts with a man who tries to conquer his fear in order to become a symbol. Then he becomes completely submerged and obsessed to the point he isn't afraid of anything anymore...and is ultimately broken. Emotionally first, then physically. At the end, he needs to rediscover fear to become human again.

 

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23 hours ago, karelm said:

You are confusing fad with vision.  Do not equate innovation with vision.  Do you believe Justin Beiber who has 12 billion youtube views, 78 million facebook fans, 1000 million dollar sales for an album to be a visionary or a fad (frankly I think we would all agree these are sad stats but I just looked them up)?  Zimmer is not in any way a complete reshaping of musical rhetoric.  He is a sharp and savvy producer and that is why composers mimic him.  You tell us why he is more than that.

 

I have yet to hear something from him I thought was anything beyond serviceable.  Get over it Grey, others are allowed opinions that do not glorify him the way you do.  Music is not his strongest point (in my opinion) and I will argue he would agree with me.  His strength is in servicing the directors emotional intention and that is a very good strength to have but not the same thing. 

 

This post is everything wrong with elitist JW forum fans. You comparing Justin Beiber to Hans Zimmer?

 

James Cameron is a visionary director who has enough music sense to pick James Horner as his go to music composer. James Cameron said point blank that Hans Zimmer, John Williams and James Horner are the three modern masters of film music. When an acclaim song writer or coach claims Beiber is top 3 modern masters in singing, then go head with the comparison. A-list directors like Nolan, Howard, Scott, and Malick all worked with him, in some cases, frequently collaborated with him. Zimmer has been critically acclaimed for over three decades. 

 

But no, he is just a fad. To me, if you have yet to hear something from him that you through was beyond serviceable, that is your problem. If The Lion King, Interstellar, Gladiator, and Beyond Rangoon are just serviceable, then you are in the minority. You are hearing something differently than what top level directors, musicians, producers, and millions of fans are hearing. And that is ok. But there is no denying Zimmer's place in history. Objectively, he has a resume of an elite level composer. He basically lead the direction of film music for years. Composers mimic him because he was the one who led the charge. 

 

It is like if I say Jerry Goldsmith is a fad. Or Horner. Or Newton Howard. Or Elfman because I dislike their music. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Jwfan2234 said:

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, Interstellar just to name a few

 

You forgot Inception. 

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56 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

This post is everything wrong with elitist JW forum fans. You comparing Justin Beiber to Hans Zimmer?

 

James Cameron is a visionary director who has enough music sense to pick James Horner as his go to music composer. James Cameron said point blank that Hans Zimmer, John Williams and James Horner are the three modern masters of film music. When an acclaim song writer or coach claims Beiber is top 3 modern masters in singing, then go head with the comparison. A-list directors like Nolan, Howard, Scott, and Malick all worked with him, in some cases, frequently collaborated with him. Zimmer has been critically acclaimed for over three decades. 

 

But no, he is just a fad. To me, if you have yet to hear something from him that you through was beyond serviceable, that is your problem. If The Lion King, Interstellar, Gladiator, and Beyond Rangoon are just serviceable, then you are in the minority. You are hearing something differently than what top level directors, musicians, producers, and millions of fans are hearing. And that is ok. But there is no denying Zimmer's place in history. Objectively, he has a resume of an elite level composer. He basically lead the direction of film music for years. Composers mimic him because he was the one who led the charge. 

 

It is like if I say Jerry Goldsmith is a fad. Or Horner. Or Newton Howard. Or Elfman because I dislike their music. 

 

 

 

You forgot Inception. 

You might be a little new here kid so I will cut you some slack.  Yes, HZ is a perfect example of someone who has rarely done much for me musically and that is my opinion.  I will add that after spending 100 bucks on his masterclass, his musical input is worthless and that I expected.  I was warned by people I respect about it and got what I expected.  His business saviness is absolutely worth 100 bucks and worth hearing.   His musical thoughts were not and that was what I expected.

Get used to the idea of different opinions kid.  Correct, your list of music by HZ is basically serviceable and he would agree.  Bullshit that he is mimicked because he led the charge.  He is mimicked because the films he happens to score make a lot of money.  He is not on par with Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman.  Probably closer to a more successful Brian Tyler. 

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Tyler showed promise in the 2000s, but he's degenerated to loud, compressed, interchangeable noise. Zimmer at least has some variety in his work. Something like Angels and Demons sounds nothing like The Simpsons Movie, and Man of Steel sounds nothing like Frost/Nixon.

 

What seems to aggravate traditional film music purists is that his scores aren't as often gratifying listening experiences on their own as those they yearn for from the Silver Age. But all that demonstrates is that he prioritises the film, and any album experience stuff or issues with listenability are secondary.

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2 hours ago, karelm said:

You might be a little new here kid so I will cut you some slack.  Yes, HZ is a perfect example of someone who has rarely done much for me musically and that is my opinion.  I will add that after spending 100 bucks on his masterclass, his musical input is worthless and that I expected.  I was warned by people I respect about it and got what I expected.  His business saviness is absolutely worth 100 bucks and worth hearing.   His musical thoughts were not and that was what I expected.

Get used to the idea of different opinions kid.  Correct, your list of music by HZ is basically serviceable and he would agree.  Bullshit that he is mimicked because he led the charge.  He is mimicked because the films he happens to score make a lot of money.  He is not on par with Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman.  Probably closer to a more successful Brian Tyler. 

 

You are welcome to your opinion. But don't make dumb comparisons and saying Zimmer is Justin Beiber. You keep making dumb comparisons and I'll keep correcting you on it. It is that simple. If Zimmer is not your cup of tea, fine. And I watched his masterclass class as well. I agree that if you are looking for musical composition, that class offers nothing. It more of a class for people who wants to know the important points and philosophy of the film scoring process.

 

Again, it one thing to have an opinion, it is another thing to make your point by saying something that is absurd. Zimmer is highly respected by many great directors. He critically acclaimed by fans and critics.

 

As to your final point about Zimmer is only mimicked because he score films that make a lot of money...here we go again. Completely false. Do you know where Zimmer ranked among the composers with the highest average box office gross per picture updated as of 2016? Yeah, I actually did some research last year. He wasn't even in the top 10.

 

The top 10 are actually:

1.       Michael Giacchino: $154,130,780

2.       John Williams: $143,067,928

3.       Steven Price: $139,202,394

4.       Randy Newman: $124,214,504

5.       Trent Reznor: $122,415,225

6.       Junkie XL: $119,428,312

7.       Alan Menken: $117,154,275

8.       Henry Jackman: $116,115,876

9.       Steve Jablonsky: $108,959,601

10.   John Powell: $104,058,095

11.   Hans Zimmer: $95,796,890

 

Contrary to popular belief, Zimmer isn't head and shoulders above his peers when it comes to scoring high grossing pictures. Again, it is one thing to have an opinion, it is quite another when your opinion is just fact out wrong. 

 

Is Zimmer on the same level as Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman? Technically? No chance. Legacy wise? Yeah. Objectively, he has score just as many films, and have just as many acclaim scores as those composers. In terms of influence on the industry, he is right up there as well. 

 

I love Horner but I am not a big fan of Elfman. I never felt truly connected with Elfman. But objectively speaking, Elfman is an all time great. Unlike you, I don't completely dismiss a composer's entire legacy because of my own personal tastes. 

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Zimmer didn't do much in 2016. 

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4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Zimmer didn't do much in 2016. 

 

Up to 2016. Not the year 2016. 

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Sorry. Just woke up.

Can you state the sources of your research. And where your figures come from? 

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He obviously took the gross receipts and divided them through the number of scored pictures. Which of course isn't saying much if you have Randy Newman's three Pixar movies against Zimmer's 200 across all genres. A fairer number would be a total of highest-grossing box office receipts which probably would pit Zimmer against Williams.

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4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Sorry. Just woke up.

Can you state the sources of your research. And where your figures come from? 

 

BoxOfficeMojo.com

 

The list is incomplete in a sense that BoxOfficeMojo.com doesn't have the box office record of every movie from every composer. But the numbers are based on what I could find on the site. If you search a movie, you can click on the composer's name to generate a list.

 

If you are interested, here is the top 60 composers:

 

1.       Michael Giacchino: $154,130,780

2.       John Williams: $143,067,928

3.       Steven Price: $139,202,394

4.       Randy Newman: $124,214,504

5.       Trent Reznor: $122,415,225

6.       Junkie XL: $119,428,312

7.       Alan Menken: $117,154,275

8.       Henry Jackman: $116,115,876

9.       Steve Jablonsky: $108,959,601

10.   John Powell: $104,058,095

11.   Hans Zimmer: $95,796,890

12.   Danny Elfman: $93,058,898

13.   Heitor Pereira: $85,536,231

14.   Harry Gregson-Williams: $84,099,190

15.   Atticus Ross: $81,631,313

16.   David Arnold: $81,540,231

17.   Alan Silvestri: $76,094,494

18.   Lorne Balfe: $75,357,961

19.   Ramin Djawadi: $72,797,387

20.   James Newton Howard: $71,862,549

21.   Joseph Trapanese: $70,333,617

22.   Brian Tyler: $69,281,277

23.   Howard Shore: $65,596,626

24.   Alexandre Desplat: $63,836,863

25.   Marc Streitenfeld: $63,491,211

26.   Trevor Rabin: $63,342,267

27.   Rupert Gregson-Williams: $63,212,414

28.   Mark Mancina: $62,374,680

29.   John Debney: $60,335,460

30.   James Horner: $58,630,266

31.   John Ottman: $58,373,941

32.   A.R. Rahman: $55,482,405

33.   Christophe Beck: $53,905,912

34.   Thomas Newman: $52,561,867

35.   Elliot Goldenthal: $48,447,108

36.   Patrick Doyle: $47,346,062

37.   Theodore Shapiro: $45,483,373

38.   Tyler Bates: $45,121,213

39.   Marco Beltrami: $44,977,326

40.   Jerry Goldsmith: $42,142,497

41.   Trevor Morris: $40,663,803

42.   Craig Armstrong: $38,824,853

43.   Klaus Bedelt: $37,396,636

44.   Randy Edelman: $37,351,120

45.   Jóhann Jóhannsson: $35,946,926

46.   Carter Burwell: $34,362,010

47.   Fernando Velázquez: $30,816,563

48.   Christopher Young: $28,659,712

49.   Geoff Zanelli: $26,262,314

50.   Gabriel Yared: $25,522,002

51.   Roque Baños: $24,518,362

52.   Clint Mansell: $24,311,622

53.   Trevor Jones: $23,289,959

54.   Mark Isham: $22,206,375

55.   Dario Marianelli: $22,166,759

56.   Michael Brook: $21,725,803

57.   Mychael Danna: $20,173,506

58.   Daniel Pemberton: $20,098,795

59.   Rachel Portman: $19,393,151

60.   Ennio Morricone: $17,253,751

 

 

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That's why I asked. Zimmer at 11 while Steve Price is at 3 seems suspect to me.

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2 minutes ago, publicist said:

He obviously took the gross receipts and divided them through the number of scored pictures. Which of course isn't saying much if you have Randy Newman's three Pixar movies against Zimmer's 200 across all genres. A fairer number would be a total of highest-grossing box office receipts which probably would pit Zimmer against Williams.

 

I have a list of that too:

 

Lifetime Box Office Gross:

 

1.       Hans Zimmer (110): $10,537,657,872

2.       John Williams (70): $10,014,754,983

3.       James Newton Howard (117): $8,407,918,195

4.       Danny Elfman (77): $7,165,535,110

5.       Alan Silvestri (89): $6,772,409,957

6.       James Horner (106): $6,214,808,171

7.       John Powell (52): $5,411,020,926

8.       John Debney (84): $5,068,178,666

9.       Christophe Beck (83): $4,474,190,659

10.   Howard Shore (69): $4,526,167,193

11.   Thomas Newman (85): $4,467,758,718

12.   Michael Giacchino (27): $4,161,531,054

13.   Harry Gregson-Williams (46): $3,868,562,728

14.   Jerry Goldsmith (90): $3,792,824,748

15.   Brian Tyler (47): $3,256,220,041

16.   Randy Newman (25): $3,105,362,607

17.   Alexandre Desplat (43): $2,744,985,114

18.   Carter Burwell (77): $2,645,874,756

19.   Henry Jackman (21): $2,438,433,392

20.   Trevor Rabin (37): $2,343,663,864

21.   Marco Beltrami (51): $2,293,843,613

22.   Mark Isham (103): $2,287,256,574

23.   Randy Edelman (61): $2,278,418,317

24.   Theodore Shapiro (47): $2,137,718,539

25.   Christopher Young (70): $2,006,179,816

26.   Steve Jablonsky (18): $1,961,272,826

27.   David Arnold: (24): $1,956,965,551

28.   John Ottman (30): $1,751,218,242

29.   Patrick Doyle (34): $1,609,766,120

30.   Heitor Pereira (18): $1,539,652,158

31.   Mark Mancina (23): $1,434,617,643

32.   Junkie XL (12): $1,433,139,742

33.   Alan Menken (12): $1,405,851,296

34.   Tyler Bates (25): $1,128,030,320

35.   Elliot Goldenthal (23): $1,114,283,479

36.   Ramin Djawadi (14): $1,019,163,416

37.   Rachel Portman (52): $1,008,443,837

38.   Mychael Danna (49): $988,501,805

39.   Trevor Jones (39): $908,308,415

40.   Klaus Badelt (23): $860,122,620

41.   Ennio Morricone (48): $828,180,025

42.   Rupert Gregson-Williams (13): $821,761,384

43.   Steven Price: (5): $696,011,969

44.   Craig Armstrong: (17): $660,022,505

45.   Gabriel Yared (25) $638,050,055

46.   Lorne Balfe (8): $602,863,690

47.   Dario Marianelli (25): $554,168,984

48.   Marc Streitenfeld (8): $507,929,684

49.   Joseph Trapanese (7): $492,335,317

50.   Atticus Ross (6): $489,787,879

51.   Clint Mansell (20): $486,232,444

52.   A.R. Rahman (7): $388,376,838

53.   Trent Reznor (3): $367,245,676

54.   Michael Brook (16): $347,612,840

55.   Philip Glass (26): $306,833,791

56.   Geoff Zanelli (10): $262,623,143

57.   Fernando Velázquez (8) 246,532,507

58.   Trevor Morris (5): $203,319,013

59.   Roque Baños (8) $196,146,896

60.   Alberto Iglesias (21): $193,383,236

61.   Jóhann Jóhannsson (4) $143,787,704

62.   Daniel Pemberton (4): $80,395,178

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1 minute ago, Mephariel said:

The list is incomplete in a sense that BoxOfficeMojo.com doesn't have the box office record of every movie from every composer. But the numbers are based on what I could find on the site. If you search a movie, you can click on the composer's name to generate a list.

 

Ok, but what does that list tell you? It doesnt really tell me anything. Is Junkie XL a more successful and influential film composer than Zimmer? I don't think so.

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Just now, Stefancos said:

 

Ok, but what does that list tell you? It doesnt really tell me anything. Is Junkie XL a more successful and influential film composer than Zimmer? I don't think so.

 

That is actually my point. 

 

There is this false notion out there that Zimmer is only copied because he scores the highest grossing movies. But he doesn't. A lot of composers are comparable and some even ahead of him in terms of box office performance.

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No, I don't think your list shows that at all.

 

You obviously ignored the fact that Zimmer has been active in film since the 80's, and has scored far far more films then someone like Holkenborg or Price. Just totting up the box office grosses and dividing them doesnt give an accurate number as to the popularity and influence a composer has had.

 

Zimmer is WITHOUT A DOUBT more successful and influential than Beck, Price, Junkie etc. 

 

You also ignore that fact that Zimmer's two companies Media Ventures and Remote Control have provided several of the composers you see in your list. Even John Powell who struck out on his own quite fast owes part of his success to Zimmer. 

 

I'm sorry, but your numbers really do not hold together in any way. Perhaps you should work for the Trump administration.

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It may be nitpicking, BOMojo isn't nearly as accurate with either older movies (only US box office) or inflation-adjustments. With horrible blockbusters racking up billions in China, of course JunkieXL figures even if he should not. If anything, such lists only prove that good music is a zero factor in today's cinema.

 

As for your second statement, of course Zimmer's success is responsible for being copied. This was so long before Zimmer left the womb in Frankfurt and will be so long after he is gone to ashes. 

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1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

No, I don't think your list shows that at all.

 

You obviously ignored the fact that Zimmer has been active in film since the 80's, and has scored far far more films then someone like Holkenborg or Price. Just totting up the box office grosses and dividing them doesnt give an accurate number as to the popularity and influence a composer has had.

 

Zimmer is WITHOUT A DOUBT more successful and influential than Beck, Price, Junkie etc. 

 

You also ignore that fact that Zimmer's two companies Media Ventures and Remote Control have provided several of the composers you see in your list. Even John Powell who struck out on his own quite fast owes part of his success to Zimmer. 

 

I'm sorry, but your numbers really do not hold together in any way. Perhaps you should work for the Trump administration.

 

I don't think you understand my point. I never said that Zimmer is not more successful and influential than Beck, Price, Junkie. OF COURSE he is. In fact, my chart is NOT to show whether or not someone is influential, but that box office doesn't necessarily dictate how influential someone is. James Horner is in the middle of the list, but he is far more influential than most composers in the top ten. Junkie XL is near the top, but he is no where near as influential as Morricone. 

 

Zimmer IS influential, but it is not simply because his movies made a lot of money. Beck, Prince and Junkie average had higher average per picture than Zimmer. 

 

Again, I am not using my chart to say that Zimmer is NOT influenential. Only that there is more to it than "OMG, of course he is influential because he gets the biggest films!"

 

Your argument that my chart doesn't show how someone is or is not influential is CORRECT. And that is exactly my point. Having a high box office helps. Being around for a long time helps. But is not simply "Zimmer has the biggest films (false) so he is the most influential."

 

I would never vote for Trump btw. 

 

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, publicist said:

It may be nitpicking, BOMojo isn't nearly as accurate with either older movies (only US box office) or inflation-adjustments. With horrible blockbusters racking up billions in China, of course JunkieXL figures even if he should not. If anything, such lists only prove that good music is a zero factor in today's cinema.

 

As for your second statement, of course Zimmer's success is responsible for being copied. This was so long before Zimmer left the womb in Frankfurt and will be so long after he is gone to ashes. 

 

Never said that BOMojo is 100% accurate. But it is most accurate data of box office numbers that I can find. 

 

And yes, Zimmer's success helps him to lead the industry I think. But the point is, there are other successful composers out there that perform nearly as well or even better. None of those guys are as influential. Likewise, Horner is in the middle of the list and he is far more influential than some of the guys on top. 

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I doubt Horner ever was this influential (explained, of course, by the fact that Horner's house style was very traditional). 

 

But i forgot: why IS Zimmer/RCP leading the pack if not by general success?

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14 minutes ago, publicist said:

I doubt Horner ever was this influential (explained, of course, by the fact that Horner's house style was very traditional). 

 

But i forgot: why IS Zimmer/RCP leading the pack if not by general success?

 

General success is a factor for sure. I can't imagine it NOT being a factor. But RCP/Zimmer are the not only composers to have general success. James Newton Howard, Danny Elfman, Giacchino are all up there. And I don't think Elfman is leading the pack. Probably not Giacchino either. 

 

To me, it is probably a combination of factors:

 

1. They make successful movies.

2. Their music is modernized/masculine/pop/rock based which attracts a legion of young people.

3. They are good composers/makes good music. 

4. They make music that is simplistic and accessible, focusing on emotional payoff. The cool factor.

5. They have better promotions of their music.

6. They really push for collaboration with celebrity musicians. 

 

Probably all of the above plus others that I don't know or can't think of. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mephariel said:

1. They make successful movies.

2. Their music is modernized/masculine/pop/rock based which attracts a legion of young people.

3. They are good composers. 

4. They make music that is simplistic and accessible, focusing on emotional payoff. The cool factor.

5. They have better promotions of their music.

6. They really push for collaboration with celebrity musicians. 

 

Zimmer does all of that, which is why he's the most successful and influential film composer working today.

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Just now, Stefancos said:

 

Zimmer does all of that, which is why he's the most successful and influential film composer working today.

 

I agree.

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And his films have made more money than practically anyone's!

 

Tot up all the earnings from all the films Zimmer did, than count up how much Beck's films made in total.

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Just now, Stefancos said:

And his films have made more money than practically anyone's!

 

Tot up all the earnings from all the films Zimmer did, than count up how much Beck's films made in total.

 

Yeah sure. But statistically speaking, there is no correlation between making more money dollar by dollar and being influential. Alan Silvestri made more total than Junkie XL or Giacchino. But I would argue both are more popular than Silvestri by a huge margin. Newton Howard is third on the list and not that far from Zimmer and he is not influential at all. 

 

I think being hugely successful obviously helps. But statistically, I don't think the number 4 guy is more influential than the number 7, etc. It is not clear cut that way. 

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3 hours ago, karelm said:

You might be a little new here kid so I will cut you some slack.  Yes, HZ is a perfect example of someone who has rarely done much for me musically and that is my opinion.  I will add that after spending 100 bucks on his masterclass, his musical input is worthless and that I expected.  I was warned by people I respect about it and got what I expected.  His business saviness is absolutely worth 100 bucks and worth hearing.   His musical thoughts were not and that was what I expected.

Get used to the idea of different opinions kid.  Correct, your list of music by HZ is basically serviceable and he would agree.  Bullshit that he is mimicked because he led the charge.  He is mimicked because the films he happens to score make a lot of money.  He is not on par with Herrmann, Goldsmith, Horner, or Elfman.  Probably closer to a more successful Brian Tyler. 

 

i think you're a dickhead for posting this. 

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If you are using your list as "statistics" to prove a point then I think you are blatantly and possible deliberately ignoring certain critical factors. Like the length of a composers career. Or the fact that JunkieXL started out as a succesful DJ and therefore was already a known name before entering into film music etc.

 

I don't disagree wuth some of your opinions. But the "facts" as you report them here are seriously shaky.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

If you are using your list as "statistics" to prove a point then I think you are blatantly and possible deliberately ignoring certain critical factors. Like the length of a composers career. Or the fact that JunkieXL started out as a succesful DJ and therefore was already a known name before entering into film music etc.

 

I don't disagree wuth some of your opinions. But the "facts" as you report them here are seriously shaky.

 

 

 

Actually length of composer's career is the reason I prefer to use box office grossing per picture at first. To me, per picture makes hell of a lot more sense than total box office because like you said, the only reason some of the guys made so much money is because they been around forever. But either way, I think we can agree that Zimmer is probably influential because of a number of factors (some we discussed above), and not just because he always scores the highest box office (per picture wise, Giacchino smokes him here). 

 

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Zimmer's brilliance as a film composer of influence lies in the fact that he created a business that uses his style, which is very appealing and recognisable and easy to understand for a lot of film makers and turned it into a house style. a trade-able commodity that can be used by a variety of composers. Even if you can't afford Zimmer, or he's not available, you can get a score that sounds just like Zimmer. Wonder Woman for instance.

 

Now followers and fans of individual composers of the MV/RCP mold can probably distinguish between individual composers. However the general public cannot. And most of Hollywood can't either.

 

On a business level it really is brilliant. Like Starbucks is undoubtedly a brilliant business concept.

 

 

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