Williams scoring The Papers VS Ready Player One

[crumbs 14,300]

With today's unexpected news about Williams dropping out of Ready Player One to focus solely on The Papers, an obvious question beckons: are you happy with this outcome?

 

Many assume that RPO offered far greater potential for a dynamic, action oriented score while The Papers looks like Spielberg's annual Oscar-bait project (with most expecting another patriotic, Americana score -- something Williams has done to death but clearly enjoys writing). It's worth remembering there were similar expectations with War Horse and look how that turned out!

 

In my opinion there were only really 3 outcomes here, if Williams couldn't score all 3 films in 2017. What was your preference?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The Last Paper/Ready Paper One

[Balahkay 627]

I'm not happy with one less Williams score, but I would be MORE unhappy if Williams didn't score TLJ.  I don't look forward to future Giacchino's SW scores after RO. 

[crumbs 14,300]

Ditto. I'd still rather we got a new Star Wars score, even if it meant Williams passing on one of Spielberg's films.

 

Barring any health complications, it also hopefully assures that he finishes the trilogy rather than passing the baton and scoring nothing until Indy 5.

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

I think what we got is the best outcome of them all.

[crumbs 14,300]

Silvestri is undeniably a good outcome for RPO, if he can recapture his form from the 80s.

[Quintus 5,399]

Silvestri would have been ideal for this, twenty years ago. I became disappointed with him not long after Castaway, and I haven't really paid him much attention since. Didn't he do Van Helsing? That was quite fun from him I recall. 

 

Still, I think there's an outside chance he could really deliver on this in the end. Maybe Spielberg might get something out of him which these newer, lesser directors have mostly been unable to do. 

 

While it's a shame, I have no problem at all with Williams stepping aside on the movie. He seems more comfortable these days in Spielberg's retiring historical dramas anyway. 

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Silvestri is undeniably a good outcome for RPO, if he can recapture his form from the 80s.

 

Silvestri hasn't really changed the way he writes since he started. Maybe he got less thematic, but he's very much the same.

[publicist 4,643]

Let's hope it will be more 'Judge Dredd' than 'Night in a Museum'

[artguy360 1,843]

I'm perfectly happy with JW doing The Papers instead of RPO even though I think his RPO score would have been really interesting to listen to. With this news, what's really gonna bug me is if JW has actually written any music at all for RPO and if he has, we'll probably never hear it. That's a hurter right there.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I would've preferred if Spielberg wouldn't bother with ye olde Oscar bait at all.

Give us some actually exciting fun stuff!

Remember that "Pirate Latitudes" you promised at some point? Do that instead!!!

 

If you recall the story of Silvestri on Back to the Future, this is quite an entertaining turn of events.

Spielberg doubted after Romancing the Stone if Silvestri could pull off the right sound for BttF and suggested Williams instead.

Then during a test screening, Spielberg noticed some background music that he liked and said to Zemeckis: "THAT's what the score should sound like!"

Turns out that WAS the score. Clearly Spielberg's opinion did a full 180 degree turn after that.

 

2 hours ago, Quintus said:

Silvestri would have been ideal for this, twenty years ago. I became disappointed with him not long after Castaway, and I haven't really paid him much attention since. Didn't he do Van Helsing? That was quite fun from him I recall.

Van Helsing was fun indeed.

The Mummy Returns even moreso!

[crumbs 14,300]

Totally forgot he did the Mummy Returns. That score is deliciously fun and over the top, in a Temple of Doom type way.

[crocodile 7,983]

As long as Giacchino is taking over I'm good!

 

He should be doing all three.

 

In fact I think he still might be.

 

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

53 minutes ago, crocodile said:

As long as Giacchino is taking over I'm good!

 

He should be doing all three.

 

In fact I think he still might be.

 

Karol

 

Yeah fuck you!

[crocodile 7,983]

Sure, come over tonight!

 

Karol

[Bilbo 3,709]

If anyone selects option three can they get an IP ban from the board?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Why don't you give it a try and see what happens?

[Arpy 4,145]

I think Giacchino would give RPO a good shot, it seems like it would be right up his alley. 

[crumbs 14,300]

41 minutes ago, RPurton said:

I think Giacchino would give RPO a good shot, it seems like it would be right up his alley. 

 

Because he's made a career of (poorly) imitating far better composers than himself?

[Bilbo 3,709]

2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Because he's made a career of (poorly) imitating far better composers than himself?

 

 

Boom! 

45 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Why don't you give it a try and see what happens?

 

I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

John Williams has become very boring concerning his projects which appear to be just little drama scores after all. Ready Player One seemed to be too experimental for him. The time of A.I., Minority Report and War of the Worlds is over!

[crumbs 14,300]

That's more a reflection on Spielberg's choice in films than Williams' choice in projects. He's become homogenised, safe and unchallenging since Munich, the criticism of which he reportedly took deeply personally. I guess we should be grateful he produced works like A.I., War of the Worlds and Minority Report before that.

 

RLM tackled this subject in their KOTCS review, which summed up why Spielberg really shouldn't make Indiana Jones films anymore. We saw the first signs of this when he painted out guns from E.T. and it's only gotten worse.

[Arpy 4,145]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Because he's made a career of (poorly) imitating far better composers than himself?

And he became one of today's most sought after film composers developing his own style along the way. His affection for pastiche has helped to keep big, orchestral scores from drowning in the ever growing sea of droning synth!

[crumbs 14,300]

4 minutes ago, RPurton said:

And he became one of today's most sought after film composers developing his own style along the way. His affection for pastiche has helped to keep big, orchestral scores from drowning in the ever growing sea of droning synth!

 

No argument there, but what's the benefit of using an orchestra if the music they're playing is, increasingly, as generic and uninspired as the plethora of synth-based scores produced for peanuts?

 

At least musicians get a payday, I suppose.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

If Gia's the last of the big orchestral scorers, I say let them drown. They had their day.

 

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

I know I'll get shot for saying this, but...can I venture another option: ditch Spielberg and Star Wars, and get back to some truly original scoring. Make his last years count, and don't waste them on tired kiddie-crap, franchises that have become moribund, and working for a 70-year-old director, who has absolutely nothing further to prove.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Rogue John: A JWFan Story

[mrbellamy 6,272]

I would be shocked to see him pass on Spielberg/Star Wars and thrilled if it were for some wild series of projects with Leos Carax, Terrence Malick, or even George Lucas's weird backyard cinema that he's always harping on about.

 

It's never going to happen!

[crumbs 14,300]

Williams won't do another film outside the Star Wars/Spielberg bubble, folks. Sad but true.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[mrbellamy 6,272]

Anybody been keeping track of historical fiction best-sellers? Maybe Williams's next surprise project was published in the last few years...

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

55 minutes ago, Sharky said:

If Gia's the last of the big orchestral scorers, I say let them drown. They had their day.

 

 

 

 

This exactly.  Even if horrible electronic music were taking over - and it is neither horrible nor taking over - Giacchino is hardly who you'd want leading the charge to keep the symphonic end up.  If you are put off by the sameness of hybrid scores, why should you give a chance to the sameness of orchestral scores that Giacchino represents?  I've said this for a while now.  He is far more damaging to film music because many fans will give his mediocrity a pass simply because they hear a symphony orchestra playing.  It's sad. 

[Tom 4,633]

3 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

This exactly.  Even if horrible electronic music were taking over - and it is neither horrible nor taking over - Giacchino is hardly who you'd want leading the charge to keep the symphonic end up.  If you are put off by the sameness of hybrid scores, why should you give a chance to the sameness of orchestral scores that Giacchino represents?  I've said this for a while now.  He is far more damaging to film music because many fans will give his mediocrity a pass simply because they hear a symphony orchestra playing.  It's sad. 

But the silver lining is there are very good orchestral composers working today.  I think we probably will never see another Williams anytime soon, but we will see/hear really good talent in the next 30 years.  Gia, at best, is a stop-gap. 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Maybe a new Giacchino score doesn't quite excite me as much as one by John Williams.

But I also don't cringe when Giacchino is assigned to a project.

Rather him than many, MANY others.

He writes appropriate music that serves the film and functions on its own too.

 

Is it as good as Williams? No, of course it's not.

It's it actually bad and/or worth making a fuss over? Definitely not either.

 

I'll take reasonable mediocrity over actual crap any day of the week.

And Giacchino ranks above mediocre in most cases anyway.

So for goodness sake, drop the tired argument. It's ridiculous.

[publicist 4,643]

Why? You can always stop listening to film music instead of hoarding mediocre stuff, you know..

[Arpy 4,145]

6 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

 He is far more damaging to film music because many fans will give his mediocrity a pass simply because they hear a symphony orchestra playing.  It's sad. 

Isn't this just JWFan elitism?

 

What's sad is that so much negativity is geared towards Giacchino when what is really the case is that you believed you were entitled to something better, that Giacchino owes the film music world more? So you're disappointed by his output, that doesn't make it mediocre in the slightest.

[The Psycho Pianist 216]

9 hours ago, Richard said:

I know I'll get shot for saying this, but...can I venture another option: ditch Spielberg and Star Wars, and get back to some truly original scoring. Make his last years count, and don't waste them on tired kiddie-crap, franchises that have become moribund, and working for a 70-year-old director, who has absolutely nothing further to prove.

 

Yeah damnit, he needs to spend less time developing his ever burgeoning musical palette (which also happens to be the GREATEST musical palette ever devised for a film series) based in visually stunning epic sci-fi films with more characters, thematics and complex action sequences than you could shake a stick at; and spend more time underscoring mundane dialogue scenes in subject-serious dramas. Come on Williams!

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

There's nothing elitist about it, nor are there any feelings of entitlement.  What a petty way to respond!  

 

I am speaking broadly about what is healthy for the culture of film music, which is ideally an environment where diverse and richly creative opportunities are afforded to composers.  

 

The kind of b-grade orchestral anonymity that Giacchino often puts out there can very quickly become the next pervasive sound, just as the hybrid approach has been for a number of years now, if bean counters see a similarly enthusiastic response to it and embrace it as a safe model to conform future projects to.  This is stifling to the aforementioned ideal rich and free environment for film composers.  

 

Even if Giacchino were writing reliably good scores, he is simply becoming overused, and if that sets a trend, then we will see a return of symphonic scores, all right - but with no standards of excellence.  Look at what has happened previously.  Zimmer writes great scores, and then you end up with dozens of shit copy jobs over the ensuing months and years.  Giacchino is all over major franchises now, and he has little of the flair and freshness that Zimmer has on offer, so perhaps his is a sound that just won't "catch on" after all, but if it does, you then will have more of that stream of regurgitated crap, and from an original that was none too worthy to begin with.  

 

There are many great working composers who could do good work inside current styles, but there isn't much room given for that.  So don't bet that a return of symphonic stylings will suddenly see Desplat and Silvestri running around churning out masterworks - it isn't a problem of style that restricts greatness these days, it's lack of imagination from the powers that be.  Simple as that.  Giacchino fever will just swing the tunnel vision in a different direction.

 

And as far as one can be objective about music, I think it's fair to say that a good case can be made that Giacchino's music is on average quite mediocre.

 

But I suppose it's madness to be shocked that in 2017, the default reaction is to call for an end to the "tired arguments" of those who disagree with you, and to conjure up damning adjectives to dismiss them.  

[Brundlefly 2,385]

13 hours ago, crumbs said:

That's more a reflection on Spielberg's choice in films than Williams' choice in projects. He's become homogenised, safe and unchallenging since Munich, the criticism of which he reportedly took deeply personally. I guess we should be grateful he produced works like A.I., War of the Worlds and Minority Report before that.

Munich was his most unusual work ever! It had something no other Spielberg movie barely had: CONTROVERSY. He was about developping to a more courageous director like Scoresese, but this shity criticism (whether it's appropriate or not doesn't count (it was obviously partly justified, for Munich isn't perfect)) gave him a relapse into his Always-Colour-Purple-Hook phase.

[King Mark 3,624]

RPO= Science Fiction movie

The Papers= Historical thriller/drama

 

JW science fiction scores >>>> Historical dramas/thrillers

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

If Spielberg didn't feel the need to release movies specifically around the time when Star Wars (excuse me, now Disney Star Wars) movies are coming out, there wouldn't be an issue. But he always does this.

 

Silvestri's best score is The Mummy Returns.

[King Mark 3,624]

yeah then he stops making movies for 5 years...until another Star Wars movie comes out

[crumbs 14,300]

2 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

He was about developping to a more courageous director like Scoresese, but this shity criticism (whether it's appropriate or not doesn't count (it was obviously partly justified, for Munich isn't perfect)) gave him a relapse into his Always-Colour-Purple-Hook phase.

 

This section sums it up nicely. Not just KOTCS but Spielberg generally. "The illusion of grit but it's missing the teeth."

 

1 hour ago, king mark said:

yeah then he stops making movies for 5 years...until another Star Wars movie comes out

 

Yeah. He took 3 years off after Lincoln then releases 2 films in the space of 6 months. Lo and behold, Williams can't do both.

 

Now he's done the same thing again, despite Williams having nothing on his slate after December.

[Fancyarcher 350]

Guess I'm the only person around here who's a fan of Spielberg's "critically acclaimed dramatic phase".  What can I say, I thought Lincoln was great, and Bridge of Spies was very good, sue me. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

You'll be hearing from my lawyer. Hello, Sally?

[Fancyarcher 350]

I'm prepared, I've hired simply the best lawyers to defend me. Enguard! 

[Arpy 4,145]

4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

There's nothing elitist about it, nor are there any feelings of entitlement.  What a petty way to respond!  

 

Not to beat around the bush, but it's just plain snobbery and a grating arrogance that you seem to often display. As much as you decry Giacchino for not taking creative risks and damaging the film music world, nothing we say or argue here can change that. 

 

4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

 

I am speaking broadly about what is healthy for the culture of film music, which is ideally an environment where diverse and richly creative opportunities are afforded to composers.  

 

Of course one can speculate on these matters, however as you say later on, and most likely to be the case that style isn't a problem, it's the stalwart producers and execs who are after a sound that works time and time again, something which we can agree on.

 

4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

The kind of b-grade orchestral anonymity that Giacchino often puts out there can very quickly become the next pervasive sound, just as the hybrid approach has been for a number of years now, if bean counters see a similarly enthusiastic response to it and embrace it as a safe model to conform future projects to.  This is stifling to the aforementioned ideal rich and free environment for film composers.  

  

More piffle. If Giacchino's sound would have a profound effect on the way film composers will conform to as you say it will, we would already see that shift. Why hire someone else to emulate Giacchino's style, if he's practically taking every project like it?

 

I wouldn't say Giacchino is even solely a 'symphonic' composer anyway - he could fit the hybrid bill fairly easily.

4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

 

Even if Giacchino were writing reliably good scores, he is simply becoming overused, and if that sets a trend, then we will see a return of symphonic scores, all right - but with no standards of excellence.  Look at what has happened previously.  Zimmer writes great scores, and then you end up with dozens of shit copy jobs over the ensuing months and years.  Giacchino is all over major franchises now, and he has little of the flair and freshness that Zimmer has on offer, so perhaps his is a sound that just won't "catch on" after all, but if it does, you then will have more of that stream of regurgitated crap, and from an original that was none too worthy to begin with.  

 

Again, overused in what way? He has tackled some of the most recent major franchises, but that doesn't stack up against the hundreds of other composers who tackle 90% of the rest of film scoring projects. Zimmer does write great scores (even if he has an entourage of other people to help him), yet I could just as easily say I was disappointed by his output over the years. 

 

This 'emulation ad absurdum' argument is foolish, as you say we've seen many Zimmer clones - most of them his own students and team members, and even when Williams style was in throughout the 80's a barrage of his sound and style was dominant and copied by others.

Right now, we're in the eye of the storm - it may look like the beginning of the  Gia-pocalypse, but it isn't. Film scores have always seen this fluctuation of dominant styles and it's permutations will continue to evolve and change as filmmaking does too. I think you might agree with me though, that Williams' style was something with flair and freshness in his prime, whereas Giacchino is the propagator of pastiche that initially had the guise of something new. It's much harder to be as influential as John Williams was and still remains to be, a challenge which I think Zimmer exceeded in, yet harder for Giacchino who is trying to resurrect an older style.

 

I think Giacchino is a delicacy that has caught on, then after a while a new sound and style will overtake it. 

4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

And as far as one can be objective about music, I think it's fair to say that a good case can be made that Giacchino's music is on average quite mediocre.

 

There you may have me beat, sir as I'm clearly not a musical scholar, though I have studied film and would argue objectively from that perspective that Giacchino's music not only compliments the films he writes them for, but has clearly had an impact on casual viewers who will listen to the music outside of the film - something whether it be Zimmer, Giacchino, Holkenborg, Jablonsky et al. must be commended for keeping the general interest in film music alive, no matter how shit of a job they do!

 

 

I may have called your behaviour snobbish, TGP, yet I respect you and your opinions here. I agree with you more than you think, yet on Giacchino, I think it's where we will have this deadlock. 

[publicist 4,643]

Apart from the territorial pissings, there must be at some point the simple admission that there are many listeners like RBurton above or several others that just do not hear a difference. Which is an observation, not a criticism. For me it's pretty undeniable that Giacchino and his ilk just are not up to par as composers to offer up more than acceptable - at best, see 'War' - scores that beg the question if that should be anyone's standard for excellence, or to be more precise: why bother with such banal, clichéd and thematically limp stuff and not give up the hobby altogether? (which of course many of us have, it's just here that we fake interest for the joys of pointless bickering). If so it's a pity - because we came from a period were the bar was pretty high. You can spend your time better in enjoying and analysing stuff that was written up to the mid-90's instead of wasting hours on these overlong new album fuckers put out every week.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

At the end of the day that's just a nihilistic approach. I don't think what people enjoy is simply a matter of choice. You can argue till the cows come home that Giacchino's offerings are objectively poor, and maybe you're completely right, but you're up against a world of people who like and hate and feel differently on every topic under the sun and beyond it. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]