Williams scoring The Papers VS Ready Player One

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The world is wrong!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Arpy 4,145]

3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The world is wrong!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L_3JrRSMQ4 

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, RPurton said:

At the end of the day that's just a nihilistic approach. 

 

No it isn't. And i don't care if you or whoever get annoyed, there are slipping standards and while mentioning it again and again doesn't accomplish much in the way of changing the status quo it would be a declaration of bankruptcy if those who don't want this art form being reduced to this would just shut up.

[Arpy 4,145]

18 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

No it isn't. And i don't care if you or whoever get annoyed, there are slipping standards and while mentioning it again and again doesn't accomplish much in the way of changing the status quo it would be a declaration of bankruptcy if those who don't want this art form being reduced to this would just shut up.

I'm not advocating for your silence, but isn't it falling on deaf ears by now? Everyone on this forum has heard it before, time and time again with other composers too. It's in every thread about the composer's scores and albums. 

 

Who here doesn't know your opinion by now? 

 

I'm not annoyed by dissenting opinions, I'm annoyed that it's the same old arguments regurgitated ad nausea from the same people. 

 

[publicist 4,643]

I think the amount of debate we see in these threads is living proof that this isn't true. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Richard Penna 3,677]

Option 4: SS should drop The Papers and focus 100% on RPO.

 

But of the given choices, I'd be curious about a Newman Papers. I've said before that I think he's better at textural music than JW, and I still think that's true.

 

I wonder in this case whether SS said 'I want you to do The Papers, or he asked JW which one he wanted to do.

[Arpy 4,145]

9 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

What I never quite understood is this (Internet?) logic of "only positive comments are allowed to be repeated. If you don't like a score/composer, just say it once and shut up, but if you love something, you are allowed to say it over and over again!". Everybody knows leeallen's feelings towards JNH, yet nobody tells him to shut the fuck up whenever he keeps on praising that composer, do they?

 

There's no reason for positivity to be accepted and negativity not. They both need each other. One cannot exist without the other! It's like yin and yang, good and evil, ketchup and mustard, Dr. Stefancos and Mr. Stiff...

I never said anyone should shut the fuck up, and there's nothing I can do to stop people from voicing their opinions.

3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Option 4: SS should drop The Papers and focus 100% on RPO.

 

But of the given choices, I'd be curious about a Newman Papers. I've said before that I think he's better at textural music than JW, and I still think that's true.

 

I wonder in this case whether SS said 'I want you to do The Papers, or he asked JW which one he wanted to do.

 

Thomas Newman or Howard Shore for The Papers, a new SS collaboration!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Option 5: as TLJ is all but finished, JW composes THE PAPERS from September-November. This leaves him free to score RPO January-February, next year. Sorted. 

[publicist 4,643]

9 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

What I never quite understood is this (Internet?) logic of "only positive comments are allowed to be repeated. If you don't like a score/composer, just say it once and shut up, but if you love something, you are allowed to say it over and over again!"

 

The notion that accepted consensus is king and critical dissent is poison and those representing it 'problematic' is a development that really rose to the front in the 90's when society became much more apolitical (than, say, in the 70's and 80's) and we entered what in Germany was labeled 'fun society'. Had its advantages, too, but it is also a reason for several less sympathetic developments.

 

All of this has nothing to do with successful modern film composers, per se, but they represent one of the results of a less incriminating age where there's neither much demand nor obligation to reach a level of excellence.

 

And that, in Hollywood for chrissake, for a long time we had exactly that (long before Williams and Goldsmith) and musical standards have been extremely high, it's just sad to see it go to such pragmatic levels of 'it works'.

Just now, Richard said:

Option 5: as TLJ is all but finished, JW composes THE PAPERS from September-November. This leaves him free to score RPO January-February, next year. Sorted. 

 

Pssst, Richard, not to spoil the dream but i think Williams probably just wipes a crocodile tear now that he's out of this shallow enterprise (going by the book). And i honestly think it may be for the best as there hasn't been much beyond craft in those last Spielberg kiddie movies. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

Is the JW/SS dream over?

#briantylerforij5

[publicist 4,643]

By and large people just feed on nostalgia, hoping for a magic spark that probably will not come - neither in 'RPO' nor 'Indy V'. Sometimes it's best to let it go. I do not mind Indy IV or Tintin or even 'The BFG', but i cannot claim my life got any more exciting by adding a few tracks from each to my collection. With the limited time Williams has to do this job i sure hope he can unload on something like Scorsese's 'Silence' than on another of those fx things with lots of swinging vines and fighting cranes. He did that so often, give him a rest.

[Arpy 4,145]

12 minutes ago, Richard said:

Is the JW/SS dream over?

#briantylerforij5

They're both getting on in life, it's not over yet, but the manner in which they exit, either with a bang or a whimper is the real question.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Zimmer's music is often dark and dreary. Giacchino's music is not.

That's a big win for Giacchino right there.

 

If there's one thing wrong with the modern movie industry, it is that so many films are dark and dreary.

I'm glad Giacchino, rather than Zimmer and Co., gets a hand in many films these days.

It suggests to me that maybe, at the very least, the film industry can finally get out of its run-of-the-mill "darkness, more darkness" phase.

 

Would I rather have John Williams and Alan Silvestri and David Arnold and James Newton Howard writing music for more films?

Or Bruce Broughton, Christopher Gordon, Edward Shearmur, John Debney or John Powell?

Sure I would.

 

But at least Giacchino writes music that I can enjoy listening to inside and outside the films.

He's got a good natured sense of humour, respects the old masters and is not afraid to tip the hat when appropriate.

As a consequence, his music clearly comes from the right place and I cannot fault him for all that.

[publicist 4,643]

Again, the idea seems to be to settle for the lesser of two evils. There is a lot of fascinating music beyond current film scores. Why not listen to that?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

5 hours ago, Fancyarcher said:

Guess I'm the only person around here who's a fan of Spielberg's "critically acclaimed dramatic phase".  What can I say, I thought Lincoln was great, and Bridge of Spies was very good, sue me. 

 

Well, at least I know you don't read my posts 

[publicist 4,643]

You must write more glowing appraisals then.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

4 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Nope. Disco Stu is another crazy lunatic who thinks both those films are 21st century cinematic masterpieces.

 

Indeed. I'm quite annoyingly persistent on the subject.  It's my trademark!

 

4 minutes ago, publicist said:

You must write more glowing appraisals then.

 

Bridge of Spies is the Alpha and the Omega!  The first and the last!  The beginning and the end.

 

On the other hand, I thought War Horse was kind of bad.  

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It's probably because I don't like pets much and I don't feel emotional connections to dumb animals.

 

I just kept thinking, "It's just a goddamn horse, everybody calm the fuck down!"  Also It weirdly seemed like it might descend into bestiality at times.  Like when Tom Hiddleston drew the horse like one of his French girls.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Naïve Old Fart 9,508]

55 minutes ago, RPurton said:

They're both getting on in life, it's not over yet, but the manner in which they exit, either with a bang or a whimper is the real question.

 

Quite right. I say we get some new blood. What's Miklos Rosza up to, these days?

[Arpy 4,145]

42 minutes ago, publicist said:

Again, the idea seems to be to settle for the lesser of two evils. There is a lot of fascinating music beyond current film scores. Why not listen to that?

Who's saying we don't listen to music other than film scores? Yet this discussion concerns film composers and their scores, no?

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

5 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Just picture it with Tom Hanks' head!

 

These days i don't think mental images of Tom Hanks and plowing go together as smoothly as they might have in the 80's.

Just now, RPurton said:

Who's saying we don't listen to music other than film scores? Yet this discussion concerns film composers and their scores, no?

 

Whatever the time you spend with your blockbuster scores can be spend on better things, i say. And i don't believe - honestly - that people so vigorously into this stuff just change gears completely and suddenly are musical gourmets. 

[Arpy 4,145]

Film scores make up the majority of my listening experience when it comes to music, I do listen to other genres too, yet we're currently on a fan forum for a film composer so...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I only listen to film music.

[Arpy 4,145]

24 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I only listen to film music.

I find I have to take a break from film music sometimes. I often find I need to give more of my attention and focus to film music whereas if I listen to pop/alternative/rock, I can just mindlessly take it in. I guess film music has a way of asserting emotions and a narrative to follow as opposed to being an 'easy listen'.

[Jay 37,326]

I would have preferred Williams do both The Last Jedi and Ready Player One, and it doesn't really matter who who scores The Papers.

 

Konstantinos will easily pick the third option when he sees this

[Disco Stu 15,495]

13 minutes ago, Jay said:

it doesn't really matter who who scored The Papers.

 

It doesn't matter?  Ugh. 

 

Only scores for childrens fantasies matter, heard it here first.

[Jay 37,326]

I love Williams' score to Lincoln, and didn't like Newman's score to Bridge of Spies, and don't expect much from The Papers score no matter who scores it.  Something like Howard Shore's score to Spotlight would be nice.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

You're making a lot of assumptions about the tone and style of this movie you haven't seen a second of.  I doubt it will have the tone of Spotlight, which was very minimalist and a bit foreboding.

 

Spotlight was about how an entire community, through ignorance and desire to maintain the status quo, can cover up horrible crimes.  There were no heroes in that movie.  The Papers will be about journalists standing up to a secretive government hiding important information about the Vietnam War from the public.  Those are very different stories IMO.

 

As with all movies that take place in that late-60s, early-70s Vietnam era, the question is what super obvious pop songs will Spielberg track in?  Hendrix might be a lock!

[Jay 37,326]

I was never attempting to say that I expect The Papers to be anything like Spotlight, film or score.  Just mentioning a recent drama score I liked.

 

You seem to be very defensive here, jumping on everything I say, when I'm not actually saying anything negative about this film or its potential score, just stating which ones I was more excited about before hearing them.

 

I go into every film and score hoping I'll like it.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  I'll listen first and then judge, never the other way around.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

The "it doesn't matter" comment just rubbed me the wrong way.

[Jay 37,326]

Clearly! 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It helps that I'm approximately 2000x more interested in that movie than RPO, based on the concept being dumb and most intelligent people seeming to think the book is a pile of garbage.  I might be surprised though!

[Fancyarcher 350]

4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Well, at least I know you don't read my posts 

 

Now I think about it, I have, in fact I reading that you quite liked Bridge of Spies as well. I'm on the same page as you are, ha. 

 

8 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Nope. Disco Stu is another crazy lunatic who thinks both those films are 21st century cinematic masterpieces.

 

He's not entirely wrong or without reason. 

[Will 2,215]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

You're making a lot of assumptions about the tone and style of this movie you haven't seen a second of.  I doubt it will have the tone of Spotlight, which was very minimalist and a bit foreboding.

 

Spotlight was about how an entire community, through ignorance and desire to maintain the status quo, can cover up horrible crimes.  There were no heroes in that movie.  The Papers will be about journalists standing up to a secretive government hiding important information about the Vietnam War from the public.  Those are very different stories IMO.

 

Yep, from old interviews with the screenwriter I found yesterday it sounds like this will be an inspirational character drama focusing on Street's character (assuming the script hasn't changed a lot since): 

 

Quote

But in an online interview, Hannah said that her script is primarily a character study of Katharine Graham.

 

The Post, Hannah told Asmara Bhattacharya of the website Final Draft—which describes itself as a “Cast & Crew Entertainment Company”—“is not a whistleblower film. It is not about, necessarily, the Pentagon Papers. It’s about this woman [Graham] and how this event ended up being what changed her.”

 

“’She was a woman who had a voice,’ marvels Hannah, her voice lighting up whenever she speaks of Graham. ‘She stepped up and became the kind of person she would be for the rest of her life.’”

 

The article where the quotes above were excepted - cjr.org/the_feature/tom-hanks-meryl-streep-new-york-times-washington-post.php - is actually quite interesting because it talks about how the New York Times is pretty miffed that this film focuses on the Washington Post even though the Times broke the story first. I had the same puzzled reaction when the film was first announced. I guess the characters at the Post were more interesting. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

10 minutes ago, Will said:

“is not a whistleblower film. It is not about, necessarily, the Pentagon Papers.  It’s about this woman [Graham] and how this event ended up being what changed her.”

Then why didn't they just call it "The Lady"?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

I have to say I like Lincoln and Bridge of Spies. Lincoln has no faults, it's still not perfect, but Bridge of Spies is much too sentimental and its music is polarizing. The real masterpiece is War Horse, which is the third part of Spielberg's "Rethought-War"-Trilogy. Part one and two are Empire of the Sun and Saving Private Ryan. They all show Spielberg's fundamentally exceptional view on war.

 

For the music: Lincoln and War Horse are exceptional, but Bridge of Spies is boring Newman, that sounds either patriotic or russian and then it's dark and evil. The music kind of spoiled the movie for me. I would have liked it, when they had left out the music completely.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

9 hours ago, RPurton said:

Not to beat around the bush, but it's just plain snobbery and a grating arrogance that you seem to often display. As much as you decry Giacchino for not taking creative risks and damaging the film music world, nothing we say or argue here can change that. 

 

Of course one can speculate on these matters, however as you say later on, and most likely to be the case that style isn't a problem, it's the stalwart producers and execs who are after a sound that works time and time again, something which we can agree on.

 

More piffle. If Giacchino's sound would have a profound effect on the way film composers will conform to as you say it will, we would already see that shift. Why hire someone else to emulate Giacchino's style, if he's practically taking every project like it?

 

I wouldn't say Giacchino is even solely a 'symphonic' composer anyway - he could fit the hybrid bill fairly easily.

Again, overused in what way? He has tackled some of the most recent major franchises, but that doesn't stack up against the hundreds of other composers who tackle 90% of the rest of film scoring projects. Zimmer does write great scores (even if he has an entourage of other people to help him), yet I could just as easily say I was disappointed by his output over the years. 

 

This 'emulation ad absurdum' argument is foolish, as you say we've seen many Zimmer clones - most of them his own students and team members, and even when Williams style was in throughout the 80's a barrage of his sound and style was dominant and copied by others.

Right now, we're in the eye of the storm - it may look like the beginning of the  Gia-pocalypse, but it isn't. Film scores have always seen this fluctuation of dominant styles and it's permutations will continue to evolve and change as filmmaking does too. I think you might agree with me though, that Williams' style was something with flair and freshness in his prime, whereas Giacchino is the propagator of pastiche that initially had the guise of something new. It's much harder to be as influential as John Williams was and still remains to be, a challenge which I think Zimmer exceeded in, yet harder for Giacchino who is trying to resurrect an older style.

 

I think Giacchino is a delicacy that has caught on, then after a while a new sound and style will overtake it. 

There you may have me beat, sir as I'm clearly not a musical scholar, though I have studied film and would argue objectively from that perspective that Giacchino's music not only compliments the films he writes them for, but has clearly had an impact on casual viewers who will listen to the music outside of the film - something whether it be Zimmer, Giacchino, Holkenborg, Jablonsky et al. must be commended for keeping the general interest in film music alive, no matter how shit of a job they do!

 

 

I may have called your behaviour snobbish, TGP, yet I respect you and your opinions here. I agree with you more than you think, yet on Giacchino, I think it's where we will have this deadlock. 

 

The bulk of this post is as speculatively moot as my own - I merely voice a concern many have, and the reasoning is sound enough to "decry" someone's output for the time being.  

 

The first and last paragraphs are disappointing.  I can't help how you or anyone else reads my posts, and there's certainly a place for pointing out snobbish bullshit, but here you're just doing what everyone else does when something they like is attacked.  You think it's tiring to hear the same arguments over and over?  It's tiring to be called names over and over for voicing opinions.  

 

Consequently, I can't choke out a mutual "respect your opinion."  As you say, why beat around the bush?  Why indeed. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

War Horse would've been better without the stupid horse

[Wojo 2,453]

That would be just War. What is it good for? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Indeed.  Why can't we be friends?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yes!

 

I'll be there for you, 'cause you're there for me too.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Indeed.  Why can't we be friends?

It's a quntessential question that Spielberg poses ignoring all fact around that and that's what I found very impressive (and the classic look). He's become kind of a visionary with this film as he did with Munich. Lincoln and Bridge of Spies, however, are "just" two historical events, brilliantly retold and depicted.

[mrbellamy 6,273]

10 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I wonder in this case whether SS said 'I want you to do The Papers, or he asked JW which one he wanted to do.

 

I wouldn't doubt that Williams was given the choice and Papers just seemed more interesting to him. Maybe he was even shown a bit of what they'd been filming.

 

Main reason that I would have preferred him doing RPO is that there probably (well, obviously) would have had more variety and it would have been a longer score. I admit that I have a bit of an irrational "quantity over quality" attitude about John Williams lately. My feeling is I just want him writing as much music as possible and whether or not it turns out a great overall work, statistically a few highlights are bound to pop up.  

 

That said I love a lot of his drama scores. My main hope for Papers is that it just has more edge to it than something like The Book Thief or the majority of Lincoln. I like both, the piano/strings writing is always pleasant but it'd be nice to have some sort of surprising angle or musical identity.

[Richard Penna 3,677]

I'd have preferred RPO simply because most of his drama scores (Lincoln, Book Thief, Munich) have bored me to death. I don't care how much technical mastery they contain - they're so dull to my ears.

 

RPO just looks like the better musical opportunity.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

It's a quntessential question that Spielberg poses ignoring all fact around that and that's what I found very impressive (and the classic look). He's become kind of a visionary with this film as he did with Munich. Lincoln and Bridge of Spies, however, are "just" two historical events, brilliantly retold and depicted.

 

I see what you're saying, but also I was just making a reference to the classic funk song "Why Can't We Be Friends?" by the band called War in response to @Woj's reference to the classic funk song "War" by Edwin Starr.

 

 

[Wojo 2,453]

Really? I was just quoting a DS9 episode.