John Williams: Unpopular Opinions

[Romão 2,274]

I see a lot of ET criticism, but even if you don't like the more sugary bits, that 6 minute opening remains stunning. It's my favorite bit from the score

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

- TLW is better than JP

 

At least around here, this is not an unpopular opinion.

[Loert 2,510]

Sometimes Williams' "funny music" falls totally flat. Examples are Aunt Marge's Waltz (which I can't stand), Gilderoy Lockhart, No Ticket from TLC, the very opening of Tintin etc... I particularly can't stand that style where the strings and wind play a quirky melody in unison. I can't stop visualising the conductor performing contortions on the podium as he cues in different sections in the orchestra whilst raising his eyebrows and making stupid faces. However, there are still plenty of "funny" tracks which I adore, for instance, a large portion of 1941, Indy's Very First Adventure, Stalling Around etc. It's a very hit and miss region for me within Williams' oeuvre.

 

Best track from Schindler's List is Auschwitz-Birkenau. The Schindler's List Theme, albeit a beautiful piece, sounds to me like the theme to the wrong movie; A-B is closer to what I would have imagined. 

[MrScratch 294]

I don't enjoy CMIYC at all, and I have tried many times to like it.

[Quintus 5,399]

49 minutes ago, Romão said:

I see a lot of ET criticism, but even if you don't like the more sugary bits, that 6 minute opening remains stunning. It's my favorite bit from the score

 

Very very almost, but that arrangement, performance and [Botnick] recording, as they pass the moon on a Halloween night, is for me, the defining musical moment of the entire Williams oeuvre. It's magic.

[Damien F 1,742]

I don't revere Hook like others do. The concert suite is great as is the third act battle music but I never had a desire to listen to the whole score from start to finish. It probably would appear just outside my top 20 JW scores.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Muad'Dib said:

1 hour ago, Alex said:

TLW is better than JP

At least around here, this is not an unpopular opinion.

But only since december 2016.

1 hour ago, Loert said:

Sometimes Williams' "funny music" falls totally flat. Examples are Aunt Marge's Waltz (which I can't stand), Gilderoy Lockhart, No Ticket from TLC, the very opening of Tintin etc... I particularly can't stand that style where the strings and wind play a quirky melody in unison. I can't stop visualising the conductor performing contortions on the podium as he cues in different sections in the orchestra whilst raising his eyebrows and making stupid faces. However, there are still plenty of "funny" tracks which I adore, for instance, a large portion of 1941, Indy's Very First Adventure, Stalling Around etc. It's a very hit and miss region for me within Williams' oeuvre.

John Williams' funny music is... well... funny, but it is always in the form of a classic scherzo and not as intellectual and creative as Jerry Goldsmith's satirical scores, that sometimes force me to laugh aloud ("Home Delivery").

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Some of mine:

- Apart from the flying theme, the ET score is dire

- Far and Away is one of his best scores

- TLW is better than JP

 

Wrong, wrong and completely right.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

2 hours ago, Richard said:

SCHINDLER'S WORKFORCE is 11 minutes of quiet, unassuming brilliance.

 

It love it too but I can't help but think that that sequence was tracked with Exodus by Kilar and Williams composed something very similar to it, specially in the manner of repeating phrases and a constant beat.

 

--

 

My contribution is - Williams a lot of time disguises his weak themes in extremely fancy orchestration to make them sound much more impressive and accomplished than they actually are. Even some of his basic ok themes get such ornate concert suites that it artificially inflates them in your estimation but if you look closer you see that there isn't much there. 

 

This is double edged... This same thing can also be perceived of as praise.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

So, the Witches of Eastwick theme?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I think therefore I am

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

All of the best Force Theme statements are in Return of the Jedi.

 

 

 

[Wojo 2,453]

No. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

All of the best Ewok Theme statements are in Return of the Jedi.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I could live happily without hearing a single bar of Home Alone, Home Alone II or Hook ever again.

 

 

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I could agree, other than hearing some of the first while going through channels on Christmas day. 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

4 hours ago, Loert said:

Sometimes Williams' "funny music" falls totally flat. Examples are Aunt Marge's Waltz (which I can't stand), Gilderoy Lockhart, No Ticket from TLC, the very opening of Tintin etc...

 

I've never cared much for Lockhart/No Ticket either. Disagree on the other two.

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

ESB isn't really all that great.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It isn't as great as people make it out to be. There's a bunch of music I would gladly skip, even in the Anthology presentation. Star Wars was a perfectly spotted film. It isn't over-scored and is ultimately better than the sequel scores.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I'm also not a big fan of Williams' choral stuff in most of his scores. "Where Dreams Are Born" is one track I normally skip in A.I.

 

"Anakin's Betrayal" is an overrated track that features choral work I think I've heard Horner do better elsewhere.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

5 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

I've heard Horner do better elsewhere.

Examples?

 

By the way, I hate "Luke and Leia". "Brother and Sister" is okay.

[Score 770]

The best cue from ROTJ is "The Emperor's Death".

 

Yub Nub was actually a reasonably good finale (accepting that the movie contained Ewoks, and it was not in JW's power to change this sad fact).

 

TPM, as originally intended, is overall a far better score than ROTJ. Not a small achievement, considering that he had to score Jar-Jar and child Anakin.

 

Rey's theme is the weakest theme for a major character in the whole Star Wars saga. It's very strange to me that many people rank it as one of JW's best themes.

 

I don't like the score to Jaws. And I like the score to Jaws II even less.

 

I cannot stand Home Alone (maybe it's the movie's fault).

 

I don't find anything interesting nor particularly good in Lincoln.

 

Auschwitz-Birkenau is the most interesting cue from Schindler's List (but this has been said by a number of others as well - is it still "unpopular"?). The fact that there was only one cue in this Bartokian flavour is my only disappointment with that score, which is a great one anyway.

 

... in all the rest, JW is a perfect being 

 

 

[Arpy 4,145]

I hate this bit: 

Always sounds grating in the middle of the Imperial March segments! So bizarre!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sounds too exotic for the scene. Quite cheesy actually.

 

 

[Arpy 4,145]

Yes, that's a better description, Stefan!

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its a brilliant score, but Williams did drop the ball on a few bits. I can really see why some of the score was replaced by tracked music.

 

Now THERE'S an unpopular opinion!

[Chewy 2,376]

Never understood why no one seems to like 'The Book Thief', it's a pretty good score to me and way better than Lincoln in my opinion...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Come out and say it, the lot of ya. Ya'll reckon John Williams ain't all he's been cracked up to be. Just a lucky, overrated fraud who cooked up a decent theme or two.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How dare you!

[Richard Penna 3,670]

Really shouldn't take a dedicated thread to air these opinions.

 

My 'unpopular' opinions are out there already. I find most of his 70s/early 80s stuff fairly unengaging, same with most of his recent historical dramas. Can't stand most of Star Wars. He was the wrong composer for a number of SS movies.

 

And I think textural/ambient music is definitely his weak point. I don't see how that should be considered an 'unpopular opinion' though. Every composer has their weak points.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

9 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Really shouldn't take a dedicated thread to air these opinions.

 

My 'unpopular' opinions are out there already. I find most of his 70s/early 80s stuff fairly unengaging, same with most of his recent historical dramas. Can't stand most of Star Wars. He was the wrong composer for a number of SS movies.

 

And I think textural/ambient music is definitely his weak point. I don't see how that should be considered an 'unpopular opinion' though. Every composer has their weak points.

 

So what John Williams scores do you like?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The River!

[filmmusic 1,823]

The Lost World.

In my bottom 5 Williams post-1975 scores.

 

I can't get into it, and I see it gains a lot of love.

[Marcus 390]

Here's my unpopular opinion:

 

Williams is in a league entirely of his own among modern media composers.

 

There's simply no one alive this side of the world of concert music who puts out more consistently stellar work. 

 

And I think the real reason for this, is that Williams simply gives much more thought and effort to his scores than most of his colleagues, probably more than people realize. 

 

I've heard lazy, phoned-in offerings from many composers. Never from Williams. 

His work-ethic would make Haydn nod in recognition. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Morricone is better!

[publicist 4,643]

Not better than Marcus' opinion!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

4 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Its a brilliant score, but Williams did drop the ball on a few bits. I can really see why some of the score was replaced by tracked music.

 

Now THERE'S an unpopular opinion!

 

He was scoring a silly popcorn space movie for children with a guy in a gorilla suit. I think we expect too much of him.

[Loert 2,510]

The poor guy didn't know what hit him when SW became a worldwide phenomenon. 

 

Btw, has anybody heard the story about Williams thinking that Star Wars was just going to be a Saturday matinee showing for kids and that it would disappear in a couple of weeks?!

[crumbs 14,300]

I agree with the opinion that the main melody in Rey's Theme is pretty weak, but the track in its entirety is superb.

 

It backs up the idea that Williams, thinking he hasn't invented a memorable melody, surrounds it with superbly ornate and gorgeously orchestrated music to hide any such weakness.

 

The irony is the shorter motifs surrounding the primary melody are all more memorable and catchy than the first 6 notes of the theme. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I love the main 11 note melody of her theme  

 

The other motifs aren't compensating for it, they're supporting it gloriously.

[crumbs 14,300]

The first half of the melody is the track's only weakness IMHO. I can understand why it didn't leave much of an impression on viewers after seeing the film, considering its fragmented nature. Especially when it just blends together with so many random notes during modern-Williams action tracks like Ways of the Force (where it's almost hidden for anyone not familiar with the score).

 

I find the first statement of the melody a bit too buried in the orchestration both in film (The Scavenger) and in its concert suite, probably by design. But I wish the mixing of the main melody was more prominent in the concert suite, it's too "ambient" for my liking.

 

Generally it reminds me of his development of Leia's Theme in ANH, except that theme is instantly striking. Its first statement on French horn is also instantly recognisable, and not competing with ornate orchestration.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,496]

When JW watched STAR WARS for the first time, he said to Lucas "you need to get someone better, to score this", to which Lucas replied " I know, but they all saw the rough-cut".

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Superman is a minor Williams score

[Disco Stu 15,495]

4 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Superman is a minor Williams score

 

The first unpopular opinion in the thread I've agreed with wholeheartedly.

[crumbs 14,300]

He wrote the score in minor?

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

I enjoy KOTCS

[Naïve Old Fart 9,496]

17 minutes ago, crumbs said:

He wrote the score in minor?

 

He was 13 years old, when he wrote it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That's underage scoring...

[Romão 2,274]

This thread does remind me a lot how great love for someone can lead to very strict and harsh criticism, like a father to a child

[Quintus 5,399]

The only thing I've never really clicked with about Rey's theme is the nasally production of those opening notes of her melody. Always seemed like an odd choice, texturally, to have them so clumped together and muffled in the lower register. Williams is normally big on clarity and clear 'textural definition' in everything he produces, so I'm not sure what happened there.