John Williams: Unpopular Opinions

[SteveMc 2,674]

A fantastic instrument.  If it were introduced only a couple of years before it would be a legend.   The world would be a better place.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

1 hour ago, Steve McQueen said:

The Grand Synth beware.  Return it shall.

 

Only a Syth deals in membrane buttons. I will do what I must.

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, Sharky said:

 

Only a Syth deals in membrane buttons. I will do what I must.

 

 

You will try. *throws FS1R at you*

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Does anyone have the Gaia SH-01? It's a great synthesizer for beginners!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Looking at the magnum opus thread, I've been reminded: Empire Strikes Back is my least favorite score of the original trilogy.

[Alex 2,833]

2 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Looking at the magnum opus thread, I've been reminded: Empire Strikes Back is my least favorite score of the original trilogy.

 

Blasphemy!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

James Horner > John Williams

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 hours ago, Alex said:

 

Blasphemy!

 

We were all thinking it!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

6 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Looking at the magnum opus thread, I've been reminded: Empire Strikes Back is my least favorite score of the original trilogy.

Initially, I had the same opinion.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

20 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Initially, I had the same opinion.

 

Apologies if you've said this before, but what caused to change your mind, after a time? I had the opposite transition of opinions.

[SteveMc 2,674]

15 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Looking at the magnum opus thread, I've been reminded: Empire Strikes Back is my least favorite score of the original trilogy.

It may well be the least immediately accessible, but it has a great deal more compositional nuance than the other two.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, Steve McQueen said:

It may well be the least immediately accessible, but it has a great deal more compositional nuance than the other two.

 

 

May you explain, please? Given that it's practically everyone's stock answer for Williams' best score, and their favorite, I don't know if it'd be considered inaccessible.

[SteveMc 2,674]

It's not inaccessible.  It's just that the score is not as thematically based as Star Wars (Imperial March notwithstanding) and is decidedly heavier overall than ROTJ.  The writing in Empire is dense and symphonic.  The score overall resembles a Straussian tone poem more so than the other two. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

I'd say its too heavily reliant on the Imperial March to be considered better than the original Star Wars.

 

The inverse, I would say, is true of Return of the Jedi: it does not rely on any one overarching theme, because of the episodic structure of the film, and ends up feeling equally episodic as a result.

[Pellaeon 593]

I agree. Certain tracks—Imperial March, Asteroid Field, Han Solo and the Princess—have immediate appeal, but the complete score is a “grower.” Because ESB is such a serious and gloomy movie, there is a lot less variance in mood than you’ll find in SW, so, it takes many listens before one track starts to distinguish itself from another. Even now I can listen to SW and tell you beat for beat what is happening, but ESB is a bit of a haze.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

6 hours ago, Steve McQueen said:

It's not inaccessible.  It's just that the score is not as thematically based as Star Wars (Imperial March notwithstanding) and is decidedly heavier overall than ROTJ.  The writing in Empire is dense and symphonic.  The score overall resembles a Straussian tone poem more so than the other two. 

 

There are a lot of layers in the writing, you're very right. But for myself, that doesn't necessarily mean something more nuanced per se. My favorite stretch of the score is the first six tracks or so on the RCA complete score, before the Battle of Hoth...what a beautiful tone poem filled with so many twists and turns. Wow. After that, my interest waivers until the stretch at Cloud City when everything goes south. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the score's a masterpiece. But as far as emotional nuance, the way Williams imbues this kiddie movie (the original) with an almost mythical and primordial significance strikes me far harder than most of Empire Strikes Back, as well as the almost intangible but extremely pervasive setting sun tone of Return of the Jedi (another more kiddie movie).

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I'd say its too heavily reliant on the Imperial March to be considered better than the original Star Wars.

 

The inverse, I would say, is true of Return of the Jedi: it does not rely on any one overarching theme, because of the episodic structure of the film, and ends up feeling equally episodic as a result.

 

While I agree that there are times when The Return of the Jedi's structure does force the music to follow suit at points ("Alright guys, we freed Han Solo from Jabba! *checks watch* Oh crap, we spent half the movie on that, we gotta end this trilogy quick!"), there is far more to a cohesive work of music than melodies/themes. In fact, I'd dare say that can be the laziest and most superficial way to make something "cohesive".

 

Tonally, through the timbres and overall musical character (such as through the types of harmonies throughout) Return of the Jedi has a very strong, focused presence. 

 

EDIT: No one give me any more likes. Hehehehehe

 

EDIT ADDENDUM: Thanks, guys, you ruined it.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

9 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

Apologies if you've said this before, but what caused to change your mind, after a time? I had the opposite transition of opinions.

 

1 hour ago, Steve McQueen said:

It may well be the least immediately accessible, but it has a great deal more compositional nuance than the other two.

 

I agree. The tone of the music is rather harsh. Jedi is more eeriness and sweetness taking turns. That's more accesible.

[Pellaeon 593]

I have found that watching the OT over four nights — giving the ~35 minute Jabba episode (“The Carbonite Caper”) its own night — is by far most satisfactory way to watch the OT, for me.

 

SW - very good

ESB - great

CC - silly

RotJ  - good

 

So you still experience that big letdown after ESB, but you get a chance to reset your expectations for (the rest of) RotJ and enjoy it on its own terms. Both dramatically and musically, I figure, starting with The Emperor Arrives works just fine.

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

43 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

I agree. The tone of the music is rather harsh. Jedi is more eeriness and sweetness taking turns. That's more accesible.

 

Thank you for sharing your answer, @Brundlefly. I still don't follow that line of logic, though: everyone and their grandfather ( @kaseykockroach's anyways), loves Empire Strikes Back and claim it's not only their favorite John Williams score, but at least one of their favorites ever! If anything, Return of the Jedi is the most written off of the three. How would that be the case if the latter was more accessible than the former?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I think grandpa's about as indifferent to Star Wars music as I am, actually.

 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Diagon Alley (film version) > Diagon Alley (album version)

[Holko 9,499]

There's the tracked film cue (apparently unreleased), the full intended film cue (unreleased) or the Children's Suite version used on the OST. What do you mean by what?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

There's the tracked film cue, the full intended film cue (unreleased) or the Children's Suite version used on the OST. What do you mean by what?

The unreleased tracked cue that appears in the film.  

[Holko 9,499]

The OST doesn't have Entry into the Great Hall? Warner, please listen to our pleas!

 

I agree it works much better in the film than Williams' idea, as much as I adore it.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

It's just totally different. The film version emphasizes that it's the GREAT ALLEY of witchcraft and wizardry, the original version emphasizes that it's the great alley of WITCHCRAFT AND WIZARDRY. I love the mean age parts from the HP scores.

[Holko 9,499]

Williams scored the scene according to what Harry would hear, but Columbus wisely realised (just too late for a new cue) that it will be much more impactful if the music instead scores what Harry would feel.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

As someone who hasn't watched the film in over ten years, would someone be kind enough to post examples of these two different versions for comparison?

[Holko 9,499]

44 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

As someone who hasn't watched the film in over ten years, would someone be kind enough to post examples of these two different versions for comparison?

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx_2TC4QmNqkNEhTdlZjMUY1eFU/view   (Courtesy of @Skelly from the Potter unused music restored thread)

 

And here's the Children's Suite version partly used on the OST: (my favourite to listen to, but the tracked movie version works the best for the movie)

 

I actually have the tracking recreated (down to having approximated that opening cymbal crash from two free samples) but I sped Entry to the Great Hall up when I did it because in my very clear memory, I heard the PAL speedup version form my childhood, and thought it was sped up for the movie.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

On 7/23/2017 at 12:57 PM, Bilbo said:

 

But I thought William Ross composed the second?!?

 

I'm actually listening to it at the moment. 

You thought wrong. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ross scored the movie using Williams's themes. Though JW did contribute about 40 minutes of material.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

Indeed. Every single note of the score for COS is composed by JW.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

While we're on the subject of how much of Chamber of Secrets is John Williams', could someone please tell me what it is Williams' orchestrators do? Does he write a piano sketch and then the orchestrators fill in all the rest? It's a question that I'm surprised no one seems to ever answer.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

We debunked the Ross myth ages ago.

[publicist 4,643]

15 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

While we're on the subject of how much of Chamber of Secrets is John Williams', could someone please tell me what it is Williams' orchestrators do? Does he write a piano sketch and then the orchestrators fill in all the rest? It's a question that I'm surprised no one seems to ever answer.

 

I have it on good authority that John just hums his tunes in a tape recorder and then hands it over to his musical dungeon slaves.

[SteveMc 2,674]

6 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

While we're on the subject of how much of Chamber of Secrets is John Williams', could someone please tell me what it is Williams' orchestrators do? Does he write a piano sketch and then the orchestrators fill in all the rest? It's a question that I'm surprised no one seems to ever answer.

Williams writes very detailed score sketches, with all the harmonic inticracies present.  Notes for which instrument should play what are included.  The orchestrator works nearby and asks John if he runs into a question.  Sometimes, and for some portions, Williams will do everything himself.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

8 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

While we're on the subject of how much of Chamber of Secrets is John Williams', could someone please tell me what it is Williams' orchestrators do? Does he write a piano sketch and then the orchestrators fill in all the rest? It's a question that I'm surprised no one seems to ever answer.

 

You're doing God's work, son. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Williams hums themes in front of his orchestrators who write it down.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Williams falls asleep, then Ross puts a blanket over him and proceeds to do all the work and let Williams take the credit.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Harry Potter scores peaked with Ross' involvement. It was all downhill after that.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

If that's your backdoor way of saying you don't like Azkaban, that is indeed both unpopular and incorrect!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The opening scene of Munich probably would have been better without any music.  Mostly because I love Spielberg's "cold-opens" where music only comes in after a key point (The Post, Bridge of Spies, Lincoln, The Terminal, Schindler's List).  

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Bridge of Spies would have been better without any music. That got nothing to do with John Williams, but it is probably an unpopular opinion.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

2 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Bridge of Spies would have been better without any music. That got nothing to do with John Williams, but it is probably an unpopular opinion.

I love Newman's score but you might have a point

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I love the movie, I love Newman's score, and I don't think he has a point.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

The score is polarizing as hell and while it's musically a good score it doesn't fit the tone of the film that well. The neutral and cold atmosphere is broken as soon as the first cue begins. Moreover it overemphasizes the emotions of the characters. A more subtle approach without any music would have been cool, but Spielberg is Spielberg and not Scorsese.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I do find Spielberg's "emotional warmth" really refreshing in today's film climate where everybody wants to be the next Fincher, Scorsese, or Tarantino (and I believe that film music has suffered as a result of this trend)

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Except the part in the brackets, I don't understand (or I don't want to understand) this post.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

You know that Star Wars Main Title? It's overplayed.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

 

 

On 7/18/2018 at 3:59 PM, Not Mr. Big said:

I do find Spielberg's "emotional warmth" really refreshing in today's film climate where everybody wants to be the next Fincher, Scorsese, or Tarantino (and I believe that film music has suffered as a result of this trend)

 

It’s baked into modern cinephilia to prefer films with cynical, cold, sophisticated points of view.  The only worthy emotions are world-weariness or anger.  But best is to attempt to remove emotion completely as much as is possible.  To be optimistic or warm is to expose oneself as an artless rube.