JW's Worst OST Decisions

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

21 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

That would be like a painter giving you his most recent unfinished work and telling you "here, you finish it yourself".

You could also say that a standard album would be as if and artist painted a work of art, then then cut it in half and colored over some of it with a sharpie.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

You could also say that a standard album would be as if and artist painted a work of art, then then cut it in half and colored over some of it with a sharpie.

 

False equivalence. It's also like a filmmaker shooting a bunch of material for a film, and just releasing all that raw footage for all to see, without editing it all down to create a story with pacing and sensibility. A composer may want to do the same with their music, but does it make any musical sense on their part? An album is an opportunity to present it how they feel is proper and tells a story.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

I suppose there's advantages and disadvantages no matter how an album is mixed. Personally, I almost never listen to a full album, at least not all at once. I listen a maybe one or two cues here and there, so I personally prefer an album as close to the recording sessions as possible. I'm just not a fan of the really long tracks with several cues mixed (usually poorly) together, usually from several different pieces of the movie. It just bothers me.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Incident At Isla Nublar OST > (Film Version)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

3 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I'm just not a fan of the really long tracks with several cues mixed (usually poorly) together, usually from several different pieces of the movie.

 

But would you have really known these tracks contained cues edited together that weren't near one another in the film unless you'd actually seen the film? There are many Williams albums for films I haven't seen and I have no idea what's been edited together in this way, so to me as a listener, it's of no consequence.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Even when I am familiar with the music, some edits are impressive as hell, like on Elfman's Batman album, one of the benchmarks of the OST.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

19 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

But would you have really known these tracks contained cues edited together that weren't near one another in the film unless you'd actually seen the film? There are many Williams albums for films I haven't seen and I have no idea what's been edited together in this way, so to me as a listener, it's of no consequence.

It depends on the track. Often times the edits are obvious enough for me to notice. There are a lot of scores I've listened to and not seen the film, and can still tell that something doesn't sound right.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

There's this other music listening behaviour I don't get with only listening to individual tracks every so often. Do the same people treat movies with the same casual indifference by only watching certain scenes or chapters and ignoring the rest of the film?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Actually, for me personally, yes. xD

I watch full films on occasion, but I usually rip my movies to my computer and watch specific segments every now and then. I don't enjoy repetition, so I tend not to watch any movie more than once per year or I lose interest.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Bizarre way to watch films then. If I can't allocate time to watch a film or even revisit a film, I'll wait for the time to come. If I don't watch all of it, I feel I'm not watching it properly.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I've been known to do it.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Well, I spend most of my time editing music, so it's necessary for me to only focus on specific scenes and specific cues as opposed to the entire thing. I guess I look at movies in more of an editor's perspective.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I like to park myself on my lounge with a cuppa tea, press play and see it from beginning to end in order to be engrossed into a story from beginning to end, absorb the narrative, and feel satisfied.

 

Seeing it only in fragments doesn't sound effective at getting a viewer emotionally involved with the material.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Why can't I do both?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You can do both I suppose, but if I see a few scenes from a film I was planning to watch, it feels like a wasted opportunity to see the whole thing instead.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

If I feel that way then I'll just go ahead and watch the whole thing. I just mean that I'm not going to do that every single time I see a scene or two from a movie. I like to watch movies only on occasion as to not make the experience stale.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Lately I don't enjoy listening to scores much at all unless they're game scores.  Otherwise, I'd prefer to hear it as part of the movie.

[publicist 4,643]

I do but most of the accompanying movies i haven't seen for 10 or 20 years.

[Arpy 4,145]

I have several OST's which I think have an overall better musical journey, but for me I think there are more scores I enjoy as an entire narrative (LotR) as opposed to a selection of highlights. It's easier that way to alter your listening experience than to rip sfx-laden audio years later because there's no official release.

 

When you're watching a film, you have no choice as to how you hear it; presented in full, yet with edits to the picture. Some scores warrant an edited down version of highlights, but I think that decision should be up to the listener. If a complete score is released it's a simple matter of taking tracks you like from the pool of others you don't. 

 

Whether it's a Williams, Zimmer, Giacchino album etc. it doesn't matter, one person's idea of an ideal album isn't the same as another, so why not release everything and let the consumer decide?

 

Also, as I said in another thread, it's so fucking painful to have to wait decades for complete releases that should've been released from the beginning. Not only for the sake of it being complete, but as a way of preservation. Although, that said, it is a filmscore and TGP is right - it is a slave to the context. Why release 50 tracks of filler or boring underscore when you can have the highlights in under 20? 

 

 

[Holko 9,519]

My first problem with the OST is the name. It's false advertising, you're not getting the Original SoundTrack of the movie you paid for half the time, but Highlights of the Alternates and Concert Suites of the Score, but I guess the name HACSS would just expose music editors for what they are.

 

My main gripe is with thematic scores being butchered. The whole fun of these scores is discovering and identifying the recurring themes and motifs, and the interplay between them. You're not getting any of this with just a few arbitrarily selected setpieces. With Scores like E.T., for example, the entire score is building up to the Flying Theme at the end of the bike chase, and the finale after it. I would argue that without the hour of buildup, slowly getting fragments of the themes, them slowly interacting, getting fleshed out, then finally played in full at the end, you'd be losing a lot. Starting an album with Adventures on Earth, for example, would be a good introduction, and nobody would say it's not a good cue, but it would lose all the emotional payoff it is supposed to have.

 

The only inchronological OST edit that I can think of which actually benefits both cues (I haven't listened to any incomplete releases for a long time) is The Fields of Pelennor from RotK, and namely, this transition:

 

Normally, the Nazgul cue would just fade back into the Siege of Gondor, being quite inconsequential, and the fanfare is much less powerful when coming right after 2 minutes of Rohan Theme, but this combination negates both problems and actually makes for a better experience. Including a Nazgul in the great harge heightens the stakes, and the payoff is all the more triumphant.

[publicist 4,643]

(Serious) composer's just never intended a cd album being a souvenir for anal film memorabilia collectors, which they have become now. Musically the practice of c&c really makes no sense. 98% of film music is in serious need of hard pruning and just because a few JW albums suck or have a few seconds of a cue trimmed doesn't mean releasing dozens of 40 second transitional cues is doing the composer's reputation any favours.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Very true. I found many of those 80 minute Horner releases post-Titanic to be a slog to get though. I couldn't imagine a complete and chronological Enemy At The Gates.

 

Many scores can benefit from that treatment, but many many more don't

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

And I bet no-one's crying out for every unreleased cue from The Pet Sounds sessions (although they did release that in the 90s), the Dark Side of the Moon or Thriller.

 

Hell I read Michael Jackson had enough material for a three disc album for Bad, but Quincy Jones talked him down to a traditional 40 minute album (wise decision). I have no interest in hearing what was axed.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Maybe they didn't intend the music for fans to want by itself, but that's irrelevant now because they do now, and have for decades. Film composers should be used to beggars by now, and if they aren't, maybe they should have chosen a different career. If you're involved in any aspect of filmmaking, you need to expect fans wanting more of your content.

 

As many have said in this thread, however, not every film warrants a complete release.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Goldsmith wasn't necessarily wrong about bottlecap collectors!

[publicist 4,643]

7 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Maybe they didn't intend the music for fans to want by itself, but that's irrelevant now because they do now, and have for decades. Film composers should be used to beggars by now, and if they aren't, maybe they should have chosen a different career. If you're involved in any aspect of filmmaking, you need to expect fans wanting more of your content.

 

Why? They compose the music and produce the cd's, its fans who should be a bit more open to viewpoints beyond a slavish recreation of a film's literal sound track.

[igger6 894]

Meanwhile...can someone succinctly explain (or point to a thread that explains) this business about an edit from the end credits on the ANH Main Title that was referred to on the first page of this thread?  I'm not aware of this.  As I understand it, the original Main TItle segues into the flute noodling over Tatooine, just as it does in the movie.  I've listened to the first and last tracks of ANH a hundred thousand times, and I don't recall said noodling anywhere in the end credits.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Film scores weren't really meant to be heard outside the film anyway.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

They weren't meant to be listened to on their own, but they've evolved to be. People just simply expect film scores to be released. A long time ago deleted scenes weren't ever meant to be seen by the public, but now everyone just expects them to be released. Get with the times people! We're not in the 50's anymore. Film scores are a genre of music on their own, and people crave them like any other type of music whether the composers like it or not.

[publicist 4,643]

People like you, yes. But yours is certainly not the most widely shared viewpoint beyond film score collector communities. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

They weren't meant to be listened to on their own, but they've evolved to be. People just simply expect film scores to be released. A long time ago deleted scenes weren't ever meant to be seen by the public, but now everyone just expects them to be released. Get with the times people! We're not in the 50's anymore.

 

Deleted scenes were an exciting novelty when DVDs first became commercially available and they were an effective gimmick to attract buyers. But I never watch them anymore and just accept they were axed from the film for a good reason. I don't even really check for bonus features on discs anymore.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

1 minute ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

Deleted scenes were an exciting novelty when DVDs first became commercially available and they were an gimmick to attract buyers. But I never watch them anymore and just accept they were axed from the film for a good reason. I don't even really check for bonus features on discs anymore.

That's true for you, but not most people. I remember when Rogue One was first released on Blu-Ray, everyone was complaining on the Facebook pages and groups that there were no deleted scenes.

I uploaded tons of unreleased film music to YouTube over the years, never have I heard someone comment "I'm glad this wasn't on the soundtrack".

[mrbellamy 6,278]

2 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

I like to park myself on my lounge with a cuppa tea, press play and see it from beginning to end in order to be engrossed into a story from beginning to end, absorb the narrative, and feel satisfied.

 

Seeing it only in fragments doesn't sound effective at getting a viewer emotionally involved with the material.

 

Of course not but that's not really the point, anyway. Getting an itch to watch individual movie scenes for me is usually less about wanting to jump right into an emotional storytelling experience and more about just wanting to look at something specific. Could be a million reasons, usually it's because I'm reminded of something while watching another movie or reading an article or forum thread or just daydreaming through a boring day, and so I'll go skip to it on the DVD or look it up on YouTube. Sort of twofold, it's not like I don't simply enjoy watching it again but it always starts from looking for something in particular, like trying to recall how the music was used or what the timing of the editing was or remembering exactly how an actor took the character through a complicated series of emotions step by step. And then maybe that's it, or I get lost in the film and keep watching from there, or it makes me want to start over and watch the whole thing, or it just sends me through a rabbit hole for the evening of skipping around to bits and pieces of various things. But it's not like it's the same thing as seeing it in full.

 

On the other hand listening to a great cue or a song or a Williams concert piece is pretty much the same listening experience for me whether in context with the rest of the album or not. Tbh there aren't many albums where I really have had that overwhelmingly cumulative "big picture" impression like I do with movies. I just don't have that particular affection for the full listening experience the way people talk about loving here. Really just a handful of albums do that for me and even then it's sort of a rare, special thing when I set aside the time to go through the whole thing again. Otherwise it's pretty much always one and done whereas I often want to sit through entire films multiple times.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

That's true for you, but not most people. I remember when Rogue One was first released on Blu-Ray, everyone was complaining on the Facebook pages and groups that there were no deleted scenes.

 

SW fanatics tend to clamour for every last frame possible. It's why they routinely comb through the trailers frame-by-frame and analyse every seemingly insignificant pixel. I admire their enthusiasm, but it makes me wonder what else they have to do.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

4 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

Of course not but that's not really the point, anyway. Getting an itch to watch individual movie scenes for me is usually less about wanting to jump right into an emotional storytelling experience and more about just wanting to look at something specific. Could be a million reasons, usually it's because I'm reminded of something while watching another movie or reading an article or forum thread or just daydreaming through a boring day, and so I'll go skip to it on the DVD or look it up on YouTube. Sort of twofold, it's not like I don't simply enjoy watching it again but it always starts from looking for something in particular, like trying to recall how the music was used or what the timing of the editing was or remembering exactly how an actor took the character through a complicated series of emotions step by step. And then maybe that's it, or I get lost in the film and keep watching from there, or it makes me want to start over and watch the whole thing, or it just sends me through a rabbit hole for the evening of skipping around to bits and pieces of various things. But it's not like it's the same thing as seeing it in full.

 

On the other hand listening to a great cue or a song or a Williams concert piece is pretty much the same listening experience for me whether in context with the rest of the album or not. Tbh there aren't many albums where I really have had that overwhelmingly cumulative "big picture" impression like I do with movies. I just don't have that particular affection for the full listening experience the way people talk about loving here. Really just a handful of albums do that for me and even then it's sort of a rare, special thing when I set aside the time to go through the whole thing again. Otherwise it's pretty much always one and done whereas I often want to sit through entire films multiple times.

I agree with all of that. That's basically what I was trying to say.

[publicist 4,643]

With all the stuff being on display no one has the time, anyway. And honestly, there's so much great music out there and available, this stupid obsession with having every nook and cranny belongs to the 'get a life' fraction of fandom.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Just now, publicist said:

With all the stuff being on display no one has the time, anyway. And honestly, there's so much great music out there and available, this stupid obsession with having every nook and cranny belongs to the 'get a life' fraction of fandom.

That's like 99.99% of everyone on this forum.

[publicist 4,643]

Forget it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

What bothers me is the prevailing attitude that only the C&C matters and the composer's original album was a mistake that should be thrown to the dustbin of history. It just reeks of disrespect to the composer's intentions.

 

Of course I'm not keen on Thor's opposite-end extremism either.

 

Then there's the other weird practice where scores like Batman Forever get an expanded release, but the composer is still allowed to axe bits from the C&C program, while his OST program is also on the second disc. Make up your minds!

[publicist 4,643]

I think most older albums were compromises of some kind due to high fees, lack of time to prepare or restrictions of a given format. So preparing an album like Horner did for 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids', some 25 years after the fact, is the ideal combination (the album ran 50 minutes). Lo and behold, outcries of certain collectors because this quite comprehensive, repetitious even, release was short of 10 minutes of material. Who on earth can get upset about this? All the thematic material was played out by the Intrada release repeatedly, all the musical showpieces were included. Stuff like that baffles me, not seriously, but man...

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

12 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

What bothers me is the prevailing attitude that only the C&C matters and the composer's original album was a mistake that should be thrown to the dustbin of history. It just reeks of disrespect to the composer's intentions.

I don't mean for them to not release their intended album at all, I just mean that a complete release should at least be considered if there's high demand for one later on. For instance, everyone seems to be obsessed with expanded releases for all of the Star Wars films, but Lucasfilm (at least pre-Disney) doesn't seem to care.

[publicist 4,643]

Complete 'archival' releases should be offered as add-on but never being the sole soundtrack release. Composers like Tyler now do this (The Mummy) and i think it's a real offense having to wade through two hours of stuff dumped like a heap of rubbish.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

4 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

There's this other music listening behaviour I don't get with only listening to individual tracks every so often. Do the same people treat movies with the same casual indifference by only watching certain scenes or chapters and ignoring the rest of the film?

I like picking and choosing what tracks to listen to, especially when I'm in the train.

Get a bunch of high-energy stuff together, so it can be heard over all the noise.

Plus, it can save a lot of time.

 

That being said, I should listen to full albums more often than I do.

I'll admit that for sure.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

8 minutes ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

I like picking and choosing what tracks to listen to, especially when I'm in the train.

Get a bunch of high-energy stuff together, so it can be heard over all the noise.

Plus, it can save a lot of time.

 

That being said, I should listen to full albums more often than I do.

I'll admit that for sure.

One of the first times I actually sat down and listened to an entire album is when TFA came out. It was a lot of fun, especially not knowing what was coming next.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

24 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

One of the first times I actually sat down and listened to an entire album is when TFA came out. It was a lot of fun, especially not knowing what was coming next.

Good album to start with too!

Even though I don't often listen to full albums, that's one I've done it with several times.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

39 minutes ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

I like picking and choosing what tracks to listen to, especially when I'm in the train.

Get a bunch of high-energy stuff together, so it can be heard over all the noise.

Plus, it can save a lot of time.

 

That being said, I should listen to full albums more often than I do.

I'll admit that for sure.

 

Yeah, music listening while commuting - that's another listening habit I can't quite relate to or understand.

[Arpy 4,145]

4 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

There's this other music listening behaviour I don't get with only listening to individual tracks every so often. Do the same people treat movies with the same casual indifference by only watching certain scenes or chapters and ignoring the rest of the film?

I usually listen to music on-the-go, so I often will just choose whichever cue I fancy or feel like on that particular day, often from wildly different films, shows and genre's. It's like creating a playlist every time out. Other times it really is about trying to get through The Two Towers, or The Force Awakens as far as I can go before I have a change in mood or just want excitement after ten minutes of underscore. I don't think this has any bearing on how I watch the films and shows the music comes from. If I invest time to watch a film all the way through, that's what I'll do.

 

Couldn't you derive a particular mood or an emotional response from a cue that resonates you that has nothing to do with the film's narrative at all? 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Arpy said:

Couldn't you derive a particular mood or an emotional response from a cue that resonates you that has nothing to do with the film's narrative at all? 

 

Sure, but I prefer the whole album from start to finish. I'm talking musical narrative here, not the film's.

[Arpy 4,145]

Just now, Sally Spectra said:

 

Yeah, music listening while commuting - that's another listening habit I can't quite relate to or understand.

snap! 

 

I get public transport so my listening experience is pretty involved, with the music getting my direct attention. I've gotten through so many scores in my time spent travelling, more than I would do in the comfort of my home.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, Arpy said:

snap! 

 

I get public transport so my listening experience is pretty involved, with the music getting my direct attention. I've gotten through so many scores in my time spent travelling, more than I would do in the comfort of my home.

 

Oh I'm a public transport commuter myself, but there are too many distractions on the train for me to commit all my focus on music. Otherwise I tend to use a train commute to catching up on sleep.