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[Finished] Chamber of Secrets Thematic and Originality Analysis

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4 hours ago, Holko said:

1m3A Vernon Gathers the Family  -     00:00-00:53 NM Seems a derivative of Lockhart's Theme

 

That's not at all what I'm hearing. I think it's the "Nimbus 2000" theme. Whereas usually it's playful and excited, here it's all restrained and uptight and tries its damndest to be "respectable", like the Dursleys themselves. It's like the Dursleys are taking that magical theme and sucking all the fun out of it.

 

Now, there is the "Dueling Club" cue (4m4) where Lockhart's theme does sort of sound like 1m3A in terms of atmosphere (for lack of a better word) but they're two separate ideas as far as I can tell.

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3 hours ago, Skelly said:

 

That's not at all what I'm hearing. I think it's the "Nimbus 2000" theme. Whereas usually it's playful and excited, here it's all restrained and uptight and tries its damndest to be "respectable", like the Dursleys themselves. It's like the Dursleys are taking that magical theme and sucking all the fun out of it.

 

Now, there is the "Dueling Club" cue (4m4) where Lockhart's theme does sort of sound like 1m3A in terms of atmosphere (for lack of a better word) but they're two separate ideas as far as I can tell.

 

Thanks, It was No Ticket it reminds me of, not Lockhart.

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That's very interesting, thanks for your effort... it looks impressive! However, please note that the line between "OM" and "AM" may be very thin, and also between "AM" and "NM". 

 

For example, you assigned

 

02:38-03:06 OM Up-tempo version of 9m1 Gryffindor Wins 2:12-2:33 repeated twice

 

But this is not correct. The theme in the COS cue has different keys (first time in E major, second time in C major) with respect to its appearances in "Gryffindor Wins" (first time in B major, second time in D major), different time signature, different orchestration, different tempo. It belongs to the category of AM, at least. And then, one should keep in mind that AM could be considered in some cases (this one included) as leitmotif elaboration and so, in a sense, it is "new material". However, I think I understand that you consider leitmotif elaboration as AM, so the distinction is clear (only note that, according to this criterion, very large chunks of the SW scores would be "AM", as well as large chunks of the Wagner Tetralogy!). Maybe, if this is the case, please consider stating it explicitly - it's just a matter of definition, and it will help you in classifying the material in the other reels.

 

 

Good luck with the rest of the score!

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Score said:

02:38-03:06 OM Up-tempo version of 9m1 Gryffindor Wins 2:12-2:33 repeated twice

 

But this is not correct. The theme in the COS cue has different keys (first time in E major, second time in C major) with respect to its appearances in "Gryffindor Wins" (first time in B major, second time in D major), different time signature, different orchestration, different tempo. It belongs to the category of AM, at least.

 

Well, yes, I didn't really have any music education, so I can't make such distinctions. I have to admit that the line between OM and AM is a very fine one with many cues being subjectively deemed one or the other. In that particular case, I just thought it was not different enough that it would warrant the AM tag.

 

However, I feel I made the difference between AM and NM pretty clear by only considering bits that were not present in any way in PS new material. See for example the two Friends theme statements in The Flying Car: those 5-5 seconds are AM, the rest is NM.

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I have a question:

Doesn't the sheet music verify that all music is composed by Williams?

Because i see his name written in every single cue (along with the orchestrators').

if a cue was written by William Ross wouldn't he be mentioned on the cue?

 

although I do admit 8m2A insert sketch is not in Williams handwriting.

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"I believe I was there to take some of the work load off of John due to his schedule. In those areas where he would be using material from the original film, I think he felt it would be expedient to have someone else adapt the music to the new film, etc. That, in addition to conducting the score, was the job."

From this interview:  http://www.runmovies.eu/william-ross-on-adapting-harry-potter-and-the-chamber-of-secrets/

 

Here's the discussion: 

 

 

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Yes. i've read that interview before I wrote my post.

But still it doesn't explain why his name isn't in the sheet music.

I guess if we had the complete sketch score, we would know what cues did Williams write.

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54 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Yes. i've read that interview before I wrote my post.

But still it doesn't explain why his name isn't in the sheet music.

I guess if we had the complete sketch score, we would know what cues did Williams write.

 

Yes, we need to see the sketch score. The problem is that people who claim to have seen the sketch have made unreliable statements about this issue in the years. We have discussed this recently in the thread linked above by Holko. The possibility to see the sketches would make all this discussion and all these efforts superfluous.

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On 2017-08-07 at 11:05 PM, Holko said:

1m1 Prologue Book II  -    00:00-00:45 OM Hedwig's theme
                                          00:45-00:51 NM bridge
                                          00:51-01:37 OM Family/Friends theme

From which cue from PS is the Family/Friends theme from?  

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On 8/9/2017 at 9:02 AM, filmmusic said:

But still it doesn't explain why his name isn't in the sheet music.

 

I know this is an old post I'm replying to - but my guess is that Ross didn't intend to collect royalties for the cues, so he didn't want himself credited on the cue sheet, since it wasn't really his music.

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I just bought the programme form Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets In concert

 

the first paragraph does say:

"Orchestrator and composer William Ross conducted the score and made some adaptations to the music".

But That is the only mention of Ross in all the Programme

 

Then there's a 3 page cue by cue description where John Williams name is mentioned in every paragraph and they clearly attribute the music to him , including the cues some people attributed to Ross.

"Williams provides one of his most emotionally rewarding finales "A Reunion of Friends":...wait that's the cue that Helgii (Ross assistant) swore that William Ross wrote

 

anyways it's still clear Williams wrote all the score and Ross just made some minor technical work  to fit it in the film

 

and those that come on  the board to claim Ross composed full cues by himself  are liars

 

I consider this programme of HPCOS In Concert having been verified by a lot of people to be accurate and Official info

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3 hours ago, king mark said:

"Orchestrator and composer William Ross conducted the score and made some adaptations to the music".

 

Just to add a bit to the confusion: the Chamber of Secrets bonus disk shows about 3 shots of Williams conducting (in a loose shirt instead of his signature turtleneck, nonetheless!), probably 3 different cues, but they are too short for me to recognize them. Or maybe the footage is stolen from the Philosopher's Stone sessions? Anyway, they play over the Moaning Myrtle cue.

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Ross conducted CoS.

 

Stefancos, you still think that Ross composed major sections of the score and various cues by himself because you don't like that score and something bothers you about it and that's the only explanation you hang on to to confuse others after all these years .You STILL base yourself on the original press conference of Williams saying he'd composed about 40 minutes of new music before he started writing it.

 

Over the years overwhelming proof has come out that Williams composed  much more than 40 minutes and probably  all the cues in the score based on the handwriting and credits on the sheet music, that article saying Williams kept writing new cues until the last minute  and  other stuff I can't recall now, and NOW the

OFFICIAL CoS Programme crediting Williams with all the individual cues.

 

Flourish and Blotts

"As Lucious Malfoy examines Harry's Scar and invokes the memory (if not the name) of Voldermort, Williams references his dark material..."

Every cue in the Programme is described like that.

 

 

Ross still has a credit of "doing something on the score" but it's getting pretty clear it wasn't much besides taking the Williams cues and maybe editing them to the movie

 

the last 3 pages of the Programme has a big biography of John Williams, and those other dudes that worked on the In Concert production .,Again the name of Williams Ross is not printed again . Only that vague credit before the cue by cue breakdown

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Yes, Ross CONDUCTED the score , that's for sure.  But to this day some JWfan members are ready to credit Ross with WRITING a lot of the underscore when clearly that's not what happened . You were always in the camp of the people who could not be  convinced Williams ended up writing more than the 40 minutes he originally planned even if it's mathematically impossible from all we know now.

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On 8/7/2017 at 5:05 PM, Holko said:

AM - Adapted Material, themes/specific cues used in PS or other movies, but adapted/orchestration and tempo changed significantly enough (like Nimbus 2000 in Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle, for example)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not adapted material . It's a new Williams composition using themes from the first movie. Like he does countless times in Star Wars. Do you consider every time  he uses the Force Theme it's a cue adapted from Star Wars A New Hope?

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54 minutes ago, king mark said:

That's not adapted material . It's a new Williams composition using themes from the first movie. Like he does countless times in Star Wars. Do you consider every time  he uses the Force Theme it's a cue adapted from Star Wars A New Hope?

 

For the purposes of this analysis, yes, I absolutely would. He adapts his own old themes into new environments. I thought I defined my use of the phrase whithin the boundaries of this analysis pretty well, if you want meaningless arguments about semantics, go bother Thor.

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On 2017. 10. 20. at 9:23 PM, Jay said:

@Holko you did awesome work here on the first 4 reels of the score and I hope you continue to work on the rest :)

giphy.gif

 

After a 2.5-month break, I finished the score and a lot of bonus material I just thought of - in 1 week. Much to my surprise, I'm still not completely insane, and I don't hate the scores with every fiber of my being! In fact, my appreciation for them only grew.

I also reformatted it to be much more pleasing and legible, corrected some earlier mistakes, and added a few comments here and there.

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Just a few notes to add on to your editing guide...

 

5m1/5m2 Harry is a Parselmouth - interestingly, the extended cut of this scene has tracked material as well, but it's totally different - probably to better lead into the restored Harry moping around on the mountain scene. The extended cut of course has tracked music for nearly all of its new scenes, except for new material for a restored winter scene. This scene must have been something deleted a little later in editing.

6m4A Entering the Diary - for whatever reason the pitch was changed for The Library Scene stuff. I think the tempo is the same though... weird.

6m5 Ransacked Dormitory - that ending is probably something new by Ross, and I think the cue was entirely a new recording as opposed to tracked.

8m2A The Chamber Opens - the opening of the cue is a new cue by Ross, and it segues into tracked stuff.

8m2C Entering the Chamber - I don't really have anything to say except what the heck was the music editor doing when he kept looping those chimes over and over and over?

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2 hours ago, Holko said:

giphy.gif

 

After a 2.5-month break, I finished the score and a lot of bonus material I just thought of - in 1 week. Much to my surprise, I'm still not completely insane, and I don't hate the scores with every fiber of my being! In fact, my appreciation for them only grew.

I also reformatted it to be much more pleasing and legible, corrected some earlier mistakes, and added a few comments here and there.

 

When LLL announces a complete CoS release next month, I'm going to quote reply to this with a "The eagles are coming!" gif

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On 2017. 10. 27. at 7:10 PM, Skelly said:

8m2A The Chamber Opens - the opening of the cue is a new cue by Ross, and it segues into tracked stuff.

 

Seemed kinda weird to me first that he would write and record a new opening - if he went through all this effort, why not just rerecord the rest as well instead of tracking it? Then I remembered they supposedly recorded a 2-second sustained viola note to insert into the tracked Howler Letter For Ron (which does the same thing as if you just leave the previous cue running, as I did), so with this score, basically anything goes.

 

EDIT: I found it can be ripped pretty damn clean from the 5.1 channels, so at least we have it, even if we're not completely sure of its origin.

Quote

8m2C Entering the Chamber - I don't really have anything to say except what the heck was the music editor doing?

 

There, fixed this for you :)

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One part I have to echo - the splitting up of the spider/forest sequence into two separate tracks, and ruining the buildup to the chase, baffled me pretty much since I bought the album. You have two tracks beginning in almost the same way, the exciting escape sequence before they've met their captor and a completely anti-climactic build-up to the sequence you heard 2 tracks ago.

 

You could fix it by just replacing the first minute of The Spiders with Meeting Aragog, that way you have the spider theme intro, then the forest theme, the scary/dissonant bits, then the buildup to the climactic escape sequence. And JW goes and ruins the whole thing.

 

I feel I can defend a lot of decisions JW makes. This one is unexplainable. I have no idea what JW was thinking.

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Holy shit dude!!! You're a beast! I've been wishing there was a guide like this forever. It's really too bad the old and new material is woven together so inextricably... don't you wish each cue was either all old stuff, or all new stuff. Then you could easily make an edit of just the new stuff. As it is, I think the best bet is to stop worrying and learn to love the repeats from HP1, cause they aren't going anywhere.

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Well, we've come to this - new, high quality remastered sources. I do not plan on revisiting and updating this analysis, but Appendix B sure was helpful!

 

So, there you go, with generous resource donations from @LockdownI recreated the tracked cues in Chamber of Secrets and also the ones in Philosopher's Stone for good measure.

 

2m4 Diagon Alley (film version)

Made to replace the LLL track 7 on Disc 1 completely, this is a 1:1 recreation of the film edit. The opening is Hermione's Feather, then from the reveal until Gringotts it's a looped and edited Through the Doors.

 

2m4 Diagon Alley (listening version)

You have to be a real nutcase to enjoy that previous one, though. In this one I only plomped Through the Doors in without recreating any of the looping and editing, making for a much much better listening experience. Also made to replace the LLL track 7 on Disc 1 completely.

 

4m2 Lonely First Night (film version)

Made to completely replace LLL track 16 on Disc 1. The recorded version sounds a bit too off and harsh to my ears, this cue tracks Leaving Hogwarts' opening straight over most of the original cue, leaving only the final note as a playoff.

 

(5m1B? no slate fits in, it was not intended to be scored) Halloween at Hogwarts

The one cue in PS that was tracked where to my knowledge no other cue was intended to go, it fits between tracks 21 and 22 on the LLL Disc. It's created from Arrival at Hogwarts, switching to the end of Running to McGonagall.

 

And now Chamber, what builds these tracks up can be seen in the above analysis' Appendix B:

 

2m9 Howler Letter for Ron

The opening is a bit janky since it's supposed to directly pick up and partly overlap the end of 2m8A Mail. Fits in right after the LLL track 12 on Disc 4.

 

6m4A Entering the Diary

A quite well put together reactionary cue, perhaps a bit less well put together by me, having only the Envelope tool of Audacity as my toolset. Fits between Disc 4, track 29 and Disc 5, track 1. I had to use my old edit created from session material fro a clean opening of 6m2A The Library Scene.

 

8m2C Entering The Chamber

As much of a clusterfeck of cues and bits it is, it has a surprising flow, buildup and atmosphere. The finale is really janky since it's supposed to directly lead into 8m3 Fawkes Delivers the Hat. I had to use bits of my old edit created from session material for the clean opening of 8m3 Checkmate.

 

8m6 Demise of Tom Riddle

The actual planned climax of the story and the score, the Basilisk death is not nearly strong enough on its own and Fawkes is kind of a playoff. Fits between tracks 11 and 12 on Disc 5 of the LLL set.

 

Wait a minute, two whole cues with janky borders meant to crossfade into actual cues? And where's The Chamber Opens, partially tracked?

Here.

 

Introducing Colin / Errol Delivers Mail (film version)

Made to replace the LLL track 12 on Disc 4 completely, it also has 2m9 Howler Letter for Ron fixed to the end as intended.

 

The Chamber Opens and the Search for Ginny (film version)

Made to replace the LLL track 10 on Disc 5, it has The Stone tracked into the middle as intended - the newly recorded opening bit builds up to the big statement, and 8m2B Pt. 1 Pit of Bones picks the tracked quiet statement up perfectly.

 

Within the Chamber

This one's for the truly crazy ones: replaces the LLL track 11 on Disc 5, but also includes 8m2C and 8m6 in an 11:49 megatrack, with transitions recreated as intended.

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Yeah I just read this too. Very impressive.

 

Although I disagree with the comment that the Quidditch middle section is better orchestrated than the corresponding material in AOTC. It's a more vibrant recording, sure, but Zam chase has more personality overall.

 

Karol

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On 12/13/2018 at 9:41 AM, Holko said:

I do not plan on revisiting and updating this analysis

Seeing how new members could be referred to this knowing the LLL set only, this changed. 

Things affected by the update: 

Reel 5: 5m1 Harry is a Parselmouth referred to as tracked cue, 5m2 Harry on the Mountain inserted, 5m6/5m7 Christmas Break redone for the longer cue.

Reel 6: 6m5 Ransacked Dormitory removed from tracked cues and inserted here.

Reel 8: 8m2A The Chamber Opens retained as a tracked cue, 8m2A insert inserted (heh) into Reel 8.

 

Did this change anything? Well, overall the percentage of new material went down a single percent. Woe is us!

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@Holko will you ad this to your analysis?

Prologue: Book II [Alternate]

Filch’s Warning [Alternate]

Transformation Class [Alternate Segment]
Petrified Colin [Alternate] 

Follow the Spiders [Alternate] 
Car Drives Off [Alternate Segment] 

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I thought about it, but neither are really different or big enough. Maybe once I decide to write in all the tertiary danger motif appearances Petr. Colin and Car Off could be put somewhere, but 1 removed second or a slightly longer fadeout are not nearly enough to warrant their own extra appendix.

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On 12/13/2018 at 8:41 AM, Holko said:

4m2 Lonely First Night (film version)

Made to completely replace LLL track 16 on Disc 1. The recorded version sounds a bit too off and harsh to my ears, this cue tracks Leaving Hogwarts' opening straight over most of the original cue, leaving only the final note as a playoff.

 

The playoff in the film is from A Change of Season.

 

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