Best 12 composers of 21st century (no John Williams??)

[filmmusic 1,823]

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/08/best-of-top-12-composers-of-the-21st-century-list-1201862553/

 

you've got to be kidding me!

[Arpy 4,145]

How terrible is this list! Where's Johnny? No, where's Gia? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah the Millennial list of great film composers. TGP and KK will be delighted.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

The term "composer" is very presumptuous for some of the candidates.

[Arpy 4,145]

Quote

There are plenty of other worthy contributors to the medium who didn’t make the cut — Danny Elfman and John Williams, we’re looking at you — but rest assured that this top dozen represent the cream of the crop.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Carter Burwell? I bet a lot of readers of this list have never even heard Psycho III.

[Quintus 5,399]

Oh god this thread, I need to be able to filter it from view once it kicks off.

[Jilal 569]

Is it April already?!

 

Badelt's entry is hilarious considering he composed perhaps 2 or 3 cues for POTC.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

 

Evan M said:

This just feels like a hipsters approach to film music. To leave off Michael Giacchino, who has had incredible output in the 21st century, is inexcusable.

I’d love to know how much movie music you actually listen to, because this just seems so off in my opinion. Then again, it’s just an opinion.

 

Ben S said:

So you’re telling me..that Thomas Newman, Alan Silvestri, Jordan Powell, Danny Elfman, Michael Giacchino didn’t make the cut? Ahh…let’s try this again tomorrow.

 

I agree. Jordan Powell not being included on the list is outrageous.

[Thor 7,478]

 Indiewire is -- as the name suggests -- more into independent and alternative fare. So I'm actually quite impressed they had room for a few big Hollywood names as well.

I'm a big fan of Indiewire, and love their slant on things. Including this list.

[filmmusic 1,823]

18 minutes ago, Thor said:

 Indiewire is -- as the name suggests -- more into independent and alternative fare. So I'm actually quite impressed they had room for a few big Hollywood names as well.

I'm a big fan of Indiewire, and love their slant on things. Including this list.

So, they should put a title:

the best indie composers.

Or the best new talents.

or the best composers working in indy films today.

 

When you put a title like that to gain attention and impress, you can't be taken seriously when you don't include John Williams.

It's like writing: The best composers of classicism (1730-1820) and include Salieri and leave Mozart out!!

 

Seriously now, John Williams wrote one of the most iconic scores of the 21st century: Harry Potter

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I love independent film and I love indiewire and read it all the time. I am even a film critic actually mostly reviewing independent and foreign fare - so maybe I am even part of that sect in a way. And there is no one subject that I most violently disagree with them than film music. 

 

They have created this preposterous ideal of film music that scores have to be inventive or unconventional or what not. These people are basically musically illiterate and so is this list. 

 

What even gives it away is that they conflate films they love with films with great scores. Like if they love a film and it's indie, then they will nominate it's undistinguished score for their awards. 

 

And buy the custom pressed vinyl. And play it a hipster party. In Brooklyn. While planning their next protest against the government.

[Thor 7,478]

Yeah, it's easy to dismiss unusual or non-mainstream choices as 'hipster', but I don't buy it. They've just listed their particular favourites and their particular interpretion of the "best" composers in the last few years. That's fine by me. I agree with some choices, disagree with others. But ultimately, it doesn't really matter.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

Yeah, it's easy to dismiss unusual or non-mainstream choices as 'hipster', but I don't buy it. They've just listed their particular favourites and their particular interpretion of the "best" composers in the last few years. That's fine by me. I agree with some choices, disagree with others. But ultimately, it doesn't really matter.

 

You've essentially just dismissed the entire Internet.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I agree with Thor.

 

I've never understood this ridiculous pedantry over, "Because you named your list "The Greatest" instead of "My Favorite" then your opinions have to somehow include my own as well as yours despite our differing taste."

 

I'm not interested in any person's idea of what they think an "objective" list of art is.  Ideas of who the great artists are are arrived at by individuals responding to and writing/talking about the ones they responded to.  It's not like this dumb IndieWire list is going to be enshrined in the Library of Congress.  It's a marketplace of ideas, folks!  This person's taste may or may not gain wider traction depending on how many others are persuaded to their opinion.

[Bespin 8,480]

How to lose all credibility with a stupid Top 10. Ah millenials...

 

The top content is not the problem, it's just... find a better title for it, that describe exactly what you want to do.

 

We are in 2017!!! Do you want to know what a Top 12 of the best film composers of the 20th century would have looked, if the list would have been done in... 1917?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I guess what I'm saying is, the people who are all, "This person is clearly intellectually disabled for not including John Williams!" are more stupid than the person who made the list  
 

Although I will gladly admit that the person who made the list is pretty stupid.  The inclusion of Badelt shows their complete ignorance of the subject they're talking about.  But there's plenty of great music and great composers there too.

[filmmusic 1,823]

55 minutes ago, Thor said:

 But ultimately, it doesn't really matter.

It does matter, because if you (not you, i mean anyone) want to play journalist, you have to have a command first of the english language (if you write in english).

 

" but rest assured (?) that this top dozen represent the cream of the crop (??). "

 

Poor ol' Williams, didn't make it to the cream of the crop.

[Thor 7,478]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

I've never understood this ridiculous pedantry over, "Because you named your list "The Greatest" instead of "My Favorite" then your opinions have to somehow include my own as well as yours despite our differing taste."

 

Exactly!

 

One of life's greatest mysteries to me, is why people get riled up over another person's list of favourite things.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I just want to know why Jordan Powell wasn't included.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I've never understood this ridiculous pedantry over, "Because you named your list "The Greatest" instead of "My Favorite" then your opinions have to somehow include my own as well as yours despite our differing taste."

 

I've been attacked repeatedly over the years for saying "The movie sucked!" because whoever I was talking to was alarmed that I worded it as if it was a fact that the movie sucked, instead of stating that it's my opinion that the movie sucked. I've always hated the "in my opinion" or worse "in my humble opinion" phrase because it feels like a disclaimer or an expression of appeasement to pre-emptively prevent any retort. It's rather sneaky, and they get the shits when you're not playing their arbitrary interweb rules.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

At the end of the day, your opinion is your own and should be kept as such.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, BloodBoal said:

At the end of the day, your opinion is your own and should be kept as such.

 

Here's the thing, it should be assumed by the reader/responder that a person's reaction to a film or piece of music is opinion, but for some reason they demand it explicitly stated that it's opinion. Weirdos.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

At the end of the day, in my humble opinion, I agree with you.

[A24 4,326]

 

Quote

 

Ryuichi Sakamoto

 

Sakamoto is responsible for some of the most beautiful scores of the 21st century. 

 

 

 

It seems I have some catching up to do then! I do love many of his scores of the 20th Century.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, BloodBoal said:

At the end of the day

 

I've heard that a lot in corporate buzzword speak.

[crumbs 14,304]

Quote

Hans Zimmer

 

You’d be hard-pressed to find a notable franchise or series from the last few years that doesn’t have Zimmer’s fingerprints on it. His most recent work includes “Planet Earth II,” and the upcoming “Blade Runner 2049.”

 

 

They mean the 20 second opening title he composed, his only contribution to the series? All music in the series proper was composed by Jacob Shea, Jasha Klebe and a team of ghost-composers at Bleeding Fingers Music. It's like saying Rogue One is a 'recent work' by John Williams! 

 

Quote

In an age where special effects reign supreme, there’s one aspect of the filmmaking process that hasn’t gone through a radical transformation — music.

 

.........WHAAAAAAT!?! 

 

This sentence is so stupid I'm actually dumber for having read it!

 

[filmmusic 1,823]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I've never understood this ridiculous pedantry over, "Because you named your list "The Greatest" instead of "My Favorite" then your opinions have to somehow include my own as well as yours despite our differing taste."

Disco Stu, Williams is not just somebody's favourite composer.

he's historically considered one of the greatest composers alive.

So, any list that doesn't include him in the greatest film composers, I say should not be taken at all seriously.

And i said an example above:

Would you not include Mozart as one of the greatest composers of classical music?

(by the way, I don't like Mozart)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, filmmusic said:

Disco Stu, Williams is not just somebody's favourite composer.

he's historically considered one of the greatest composers alive.

So, any list that doesn't include him in the greatest film composers, I say should not be taken at all seriously.

And i said an example above:

Would you not include Mozart as one of the greatest composers of classical music?

(by the way, I don't like Mozart)

 

So they deliberately avoided including John Williams just to be edgy and to defy the governing expecation that he always be included in these sorts of lists.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

1 minute ago, filmmusic said:

Disco Stu, Williams is not just somebody's favourite composer.

he's historically considered one of the greatest composers alive.

So, any list that doesn't include him in the greatest film composers, I say should not be taken at all seriously.

And i said an example above:

Would you not include Mozart as one of the greatest composers of classical music?

(by the way, I don't like Mozart)

 

Then nothing you said before that can be taken seriously.

[filmmusic 1,823]

5 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Then nothing you said before that can be taken seriously.

Haha! You got me!

It just isn't my style.

But I cannot deny that he is among the greatest composers.

 

It was a reply to Disco Stu, who implied that we all get riled up, because the article doesn't include our favourite composers.

5 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

So they deliberately avoided including John Williams just to be edgy and to defy the governing expecation that he always be included in these sorts of lists.

This is an option too.

 

This reminded me of a thread i had started in another forum, about your 10 favourite animation films.

There was one guy that it seemed to me he so desperately looked for the most unknown  animation films that noone had ever heard of just to be different and impress!

I mean, come on, 10 favourite animation films, and not one that at least 5 people have heard of? (ok, i'm exaggerating here, but you got the idea)

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

It was a reply to Disco Stu, who implied that we all get riled up, because the article doesn't include our favourite composers.

 

No implication.  I'm saying it.

 

i never include anything in a list based only on conventional wisdom or what has to be there.  Questioning conventional wisdom is always good, never bad.  Forces people to actually defend their taste.

[filmmusic 1,823]

5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

No implication.  I'm saying it.

OK.

Next time we'll see an article about 10 greatest physicists of 20th century, with Einstein out of the list!

and whoever complains, i'll use your words!

 

 

Some things are not a matter of taste!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

9 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Some things are not a matter of taste!

 

Agreed.  Physics is a science, where achievements are measured through empirical evidence.

 

Greatness in art is more nebulous.  You can of course present facts such as sales numbers, frequency of performances/plays, but that's not a measure of talent or "greatness," however you want to define that, it's a measure of popularity.

 

All I'm saying is that if you're writing about art, don't assume the tastes of others based on what you're supposed to like.

 

All of this is pretty moot, because I agree that the author of this film music list is dumb.  But I am certainly open to reading a list that doesn't include Williams by an intelligent person.  I don't oppose his exclusion "just because."  I want my preferences challenged!

[filmmusic 1,823]

51 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

Here's the thing, it should be assumed by the reader/responder that a person's reaction to a film or piece of music is opinion, but for some reason they demand it explicitly stated that it's opinion. Weirdos.

But here Sally Spectra, is not a post in a forum.

This is an article.

Which has the greatest composers as title, and also he says in it that we should be "rest assured" (meaning, he's expressing a certain "fact").

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, filmmusic said:

But here Sally Spectra, is not a post in a forum.

This is an article.

Which has the greatest composers as title, and also he says in it that we should be "rest assured" (meaning, he's expressing a certain "fact").

 

That's when you need to exercise some flexibility to recognise the writer is using hyperbole to frame their article.

[filmmusic 1,823]

3 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Greatness in art is more nebulous.  You can of course present facts such as sales numbers, frequency of performances/plays, but that's not a measure of talent or "greatness," however you want to define that, it's a measure of popularity.

 

 

If greatness in art is more nebulous, how come we have some composers being considered the greatest? or painters? or architects? This shows that there are some ideal characteristics compared to which they come very close.

Mozart or Beethoven certainly aren't considered that due to number of sales or performances.

 

Unfortunately, you have to study art, to know what those characteristics or criteria are.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, filmmusic said:

If greatness in art is more nebulous, how come we have some composers being considered the greatest? This shows that there are some ideal characteristics compared to which they come very close.

Mozart or Beethoven certainly aren't considered that due to number of sales or performances.

 

They're considered great because some people a couple of hundred years ago said they were great and then some people from each successive generation have agreed with the previous generation.  Of course a lot of people say they're great because other people told them so.

 

Obviously, any list that excludes Beethoven should probably defend that opinion.  But the opinion is not invalid based solely on the exclusion of Beethoven!

[filmmusic 1,823]

3 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

They're considered great because some people a couple of hundred years ago said they were great and then some people from each successive generation have agreed with the previous generation.  Of course a lot of people say they're great because other people told them so.

Not at all.

Many great artists were considered great posthumously!

Stravinsky's Rite of Spring was booed on premiere, and now is considered perhaps the greatest musical work of 20th century.

 

I'm sorry but i don't agree with you at all.

Just because art is not science, it doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own criteria of aesthetics.

There's a reason why noone today knows of Salieri (except for the movie Amadeus) and knows Mozart.

it's not a coincidence, nor a random fact because someone said so.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, filmmusic said:

Not at all.

Many great artists were considered great posthumously!

Stravinsky's Rite of Spring was booed on premiere, and now is considered perhaps the greatest musical work of 20th century.

 

Well, to have ever been heard outside of that premiere obviously not every single person booed.  Some people who heard it loved it and then they convinced other people that it was great and so on and so on.  I'm just trying to get to the heart of what you mean when you say something is "considered" to be great.  By whom?  It's the question of assuming the taste of others again.  Ideas like this come in and out of fashion.  Will "Rite of Spring" still be considered the greatest in 300 years?  If not, it won't be because everybody all at once decided it sucks.  It'll be because of articles like this starting to leave it off of lists of the greatest, and then after a while people stop questioning it.  It could be slowly forgotten.  It probably won't be, because it's amazing.

 

Maybe this is all BS pseudo-social science.  I dunno.

[filmmusic 1,823]

2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Well, to have ever been heard outside of that premiere obviously not every single person booed.  Some people who heard it loved it and then they convinced other people that it was great and so on and so on.  I'm just trying to get to the heart of what you mean when you say something is "considered" to be great.  By whom?  It's the question of assuming the taste of others again.  Ideas like this come in and out of fashion.  Will "Rite of Spring" still be considered the greatest in 300 years?  If not, it won't be because everybody all at once decided it sucks.  It'll be because of articles like this starting to leave it off of lists of the greatest, and then after a while people stop questioning it.  It could be slowly forgotten.  It probably won't be, because it's amazing.

 

Maybe this is all BS pseudo-social science.  I dunno.

I can't reply to you. I cannot explain it.

 

I can tell you this:

 

When i was 17-18 years old, i was riled up when my music professors didn't like some composers I liked and thought their music was great.

When I studied music in the university and felt more mature, I understood them completely, and I realised that those composers I liked and thought they were good were not good at all.

In fact they were pretty bad and kitsch.

 

Anyway.. I give up here.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It's past time for publicist to show up and lambast me for my faux-populism anyway.  Guess we'll leave it there  

[Brundlefly 2,385]

I hate those "subjective or objective?"-discussions! Everyone should try to differ between a subjective opinion and an objective evaluation. And everyone should point out what kind of list it is.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

There is absolutely no criteria for "good art." It's entirely subjective. Sorry @filmmusic, but you're in the wrong here. No list requires John Williams or Mozart on it. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

30 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

I hate those "subjective or objective?"-discussions! Everyone should try to differ between a subjective opinion and an objective evaluation. And everyone should point out what kind of list it is.

 

You can list out all kinds of objective measures of musical inventiveness/complexity and popularity, but ultimately the value judgment at the end of all that is always subjective.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Why aren't all opinions like mine?!! 

[Thor 7,478]

I disagree with filmmusic on this. Imagine how boring all these lists would be if they were only "allowed" to include the established classics. I'd rather see a list of 'best' or 'favourite' or 'greatest' movies that were unusual instead of umpteen repetitions of CITIZEN KANE and the like.

 

Kudos to Indiewire for doing this, even if the writer is obviously not as hardcore a film music enthusiast as us. Cool and different choices!

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

It's past time for publicist to show up and lambast me for my faux-populism anyway.  Guess we'll leave it there  

 

It's just the same tired old relativist bullshit. No one says liking something on your own accord is no criteria but it shouldn't be the only criteria (when evaluating a work of a specific cultural canon). 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

18 minutes ago, Thor said:

I disagree with filmmusic on this. Imagine how boring all these lists would be if they were only "allowed" to include the established classics. I'd rather see a list of 'best' or 'favourite' or 'greatest' movies that were unusual instead of umpteen repetitions of CITIZEN KANE and the like.

 

Kudos to Indiewire for doing this, even if the writer is obviously not as hardcore a film music enthusiast as us. Cool and different choices!

 

It's like the AVGN's top 10 baddest bad guys video. Instead of a predictable run-of-the-mill list that includes Darth Vader, Hannibal Lecter, Norman Bates, etc. His list had guys like Clubber Lang, Terry Silver, Caesar Romero's Joker, Nuclear Man and Biff Tannen.

[Bespin 8,480]

John Williams took the film music "here" and brought it --> "there".

 

At his death, this will mark the end of an era. Like Bach's death year mark the end of the baroque period.

 

It doesn't mean they are the greatest composers that ever lived on earth (it's suggestive), it only means that during their lifetime, they took the best of the music that was done previously, and developped it to his maximum. In other words, they brought their "genre" or "style" to the top. 

 

John Williams is the last of its genre.

 

After that, movie music will be something else.  And already, movie music has changed and it's okay, we call that evolution.

 

Now make the Top 10 you want, it's just funny (but as I wrote previously, just be carefull how you name it!).

 

John Williams is one of the greatest movie music composers of his era, and his music will continue to influence movie music for the rest of the 21st century.