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Classical Re-Score: TFA's Lightsaber Duel with Firebird Music


Will

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50 minutes ago, Miguel Andrade said:

Do you mean that Stravisnky is classical music, having then a different inner quality missing from Williams music? If so, what makes you call it classical music? Because to me they sure are both classical composers, in the regular sense given to the word. One just happens to spend most of his time writing for film. By the way, Stravinsky wanted to score a film, but negotiations never really got off the ground. If he did such a film score, would that still be a classical piece of music? Also, isn't a ballet score subject to the action do the dancers, not unlike a film score is to the action of the actors? Can't both be classical music? Don't take this as any sort of argument, Will, not trying to pick up a fight, just wondering about what you think :)

 

Yeah, I didn't really mean to make a general statement there about "classical music" being inherently superior to film music, or anything like that (I would never denigrate our Lord and Savior John Williams like that! ;)) I was basically just referring to how Williams' cue is essentially standard action music. (Full disclosure: "The Ways of the Force" is not one of my favorite cues in TFA, even though I did enjoy it.) It's focused on keeping suspense, etc. But it doesn't covey the incredible weight and passion of the lightsaber duel (at least until the last 30 seconds or so), at least to my ears. The scene doesn't really transcend the basic first-viewing suspense role.

 

We had a thread a while ago discussing "epicness" in film/music combinations. Quintus started it off with a terrific post, excerpted here:

 

Quote

Loud or soft though, the properties of epic scoring are perhaps more nuanced and complex than one might automatically assume them to be. In its most basic form a standard epic moment in a cue will simply appeal to our innate musical desires to be satisfied by some harmonic brass and percussion as the hero has their moment to shine or a mythical locale itself is given deserved musical recognition. But other times the ethereal voice of a soprano as heard in Forth Eorlingas (from TTT) suddenly taking centre stage above the din of audio effects can affect the viewer (and listener) in a way which is profound and even in the moment interpreted as being downright poetic. The epic music we hear can take on a mystic quality which we feel in ourselves - keen that we are sometimes to project our personal yearnings into the music as we marry the sound to the imagery.

 

I like the Firebird with the forest duel because it somehow feels poetic to me in a way that Williams' cue doesn't (although several other Williams cues from the score do!) I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some others don't seem to have enjoyed the combination - epicness as defined by Quintus above is a very subjective thing that is hard to put into words. 

 

I suppose one way to explain it is that this is one manifestation of my continual yearning for film scenes that put the music in a truly important position, let the music dictate the rhythm and tone, with the film scene merely seeming to follow along, as if the pictures were just there to illustrate the music (perhaps this can be best found in ballet, as well as certain more art-sy films e.g. The Tree of Life?) Because as I've said, I'm really a music fan first and a film fan second. 

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11 minutes ago, Will said:

 

Yeah, I didn't really mean to make a general statement there about "classical music" being inherently superior to film music, or anything like that (I would never denigrate our Lord and Savior John Williams like that! ;)) I was basically just referring to how Williams' cue is essentially standard action music. (Full disclosure: "The Ways of the Force" is not one of my favorite cues in TFA, even though I did enjoy it.) It's focused on keeping suspense, etc. But it doesn't covey the incredible weight and passion of the lightsaber duel (at least until the last 30 seconds or so), at least to my ears. The scene doesn't really transcend the basic first-viewing suspense role.

 

 

My question is rather, is film music a genre, like classical music is (at least in a rather broad sense). Because when we talk, at least around here, about film music, he mostly refer to composers who write and work on the classical music moulds (surely the case of Williams).

Now, if we are talking about the inner quality of a concert piece against a film cue, I can understand the argument. A concert piece follows a purely musical logic. A film cue, as much as it tries, still remains hostage of the images, so to speak. This hardly means that concert music is , by default, superior to film music. Surely not what I feel, as many of my favourite pieces of music come from film scores.

 

I do agree though that the Finale of Firebird as a broad epic sense that might be missing from the Williams scoring of the scene, but to my ears and sensibility I still find Williams options more adequate. Again, and in the particular case in choosing the Stravinsky piece, I might be biased for attaching it too much to its original subject matter.

I think I understand when you say "poetic"... I would say that musically, the Stravinsky shows a sense of freedom that Williams might not, as the scoring of the ballet was probably left much more to the composers discretion as opposed to the way films are scores, specially nowadays.

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I feel like the Firebird music makes it too obvious that everything is going to turn out well. When you're watching the movie for the first time the music has to keep you on edge as to what the outcome will be. That Firebird music however plays after Ivan has lifted the curse in the ballet; it's basically a celebratory piece.

 

In fact, the first time I listened to the Firebird ballet was as I was drifting to sleep, and as soon as that solo horn entered in the final scene, I had a vision of a father and son standing next to a telescope in the garden, and the father was pointing up at the night sky as if outlining a constellation to the young boy. It was a very peaceful image. On the other hand, that fight between Rey and Kylo Ren is not peaceful at all. So I have to agree with those that have said that Williams' music fits better.

 

Nice post though, it's interesting to see and read about these attempts! :)

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1 hour ago, Miguel Andrade said:

 

My question is rather, is film music a genre, like classical music is (at least in a rather broad sense). Because when we talk, at least around here, about film music, he mostly refer to composers who write and work on the classical music moulds (surely the case of Williams).

Now, if we are talking about the inner quality of a concert piece against a film cue, I can understand the argument. A concert piece follows a purely musical logic. A film cue, as much as it tries, still remains hostage of the images, so to speak. This hardly means that concert music is , by default, superior to film music. Surely not what I feel, as many of my favourite pieces of music come from film scores.

 

I do agree though that the Finale of Firebird as a broad epic sense that might be missing from the Williams scoring of the scene, but to my ears and sensibility I still find Williams options more adequate. Again, and in the particular case in choosing the Stravinsky piece, I might be biased for attaching it too much to its original subject matter.

I think I understand when you say "poetic"... I would say that musically, the Stravinsky shows a sense of freedom that Williams might not, as the scoring of the ballet was probably left much more to the composers discretion as opposed to the way films are scores, specially nowadays.

 

I didn't really mean to suggest that the fact that the Firebird isn't film music somehow inherently makes it free-er or better than film music. Williams is perfectly capable of writing music that totally transforms a scene and feels just as "free" as classical music (he's my favorite composer, of course!) - I just don't feel like he did that in this particular instance, and one day when I was listening to the Firebird's finale I suddenly wondered how that piece might work for this scene. 

 

48 minutes ago, Loert said:

I feel like the Firebird music makes it too obvious that everything is going to turn out well. When you're watching the movie for the first time the music has to keep you on edge as to what the outcome will be. That Firebird music however plays after Ivan has lifted the curse in the ballet; it's basically a celebratory piece.

 

It's interesting that you say that because I had anticipated that reaction when I was putting together the video yesterday! Indeed, it's not as suspenseful (although it's hard to say how much impact the choice of music would make on first viewing anyway, with all the lightsaber sound effects and screams). 

 

Ultimately, though, suspense is something that, at least for this film, is really only felt strongly on first viewing. The fact that a scene is suspenseful is not really a reason I would want to watch it over and over again -- whereas the fact that it has a beautiful film/music combo is. Suspense is a cool little thrill, but a piece of art can't retain interest for me if that's its main trick. There's certainly something to be said for movies where that is the case, though - I love many of them, just for a different reason! 

 

You're absolutely right - the Firebird basically telegraphs the fight's conclusion. If I may dredge up our old argument from last week: I wonder if our difference of opinion here has some relation to the emotion vs. beauty/wonder thing I was talking about. The former tends to be associated with how the story progresses throughout the film, and the suspense and other such things associated with that. The latter tends to be focused on savoring each moment individually, marveling at how music and picture dance their graceful waltz (I know that line is a little corny, but I still think it describes things pretty accurately!) Obviously, I appreciate emotion, suspense, etc. in film, but I also tend to place a pretty major emphasis on the beauty of an individual scene/cue. 

 

48 minutes ago, Loert said:

In fact, the first time I listened to the Firebird ballet was as I was drifting to sleep, and as soon as that solo horn entered in the final scene, I had a vision of a father and son standing next to a telescope in the garden, and the father was pointing up at the night sky as if outlining a constellation to the young boy. It was a very peaceful image. On the other hand, that fight between Rey and Kylo Ren is not peaceful at all. So I have to agree with those that have said that Williams' music fits better.

 

That's interesting - I find the beginning of the finale very peaceful too, but actually I think it fits very well with the picture. I love how you can see the swirling snow behind the characters as they pull for the lightsaber, and how the solo horn notes give me "space" to take in the scenery, to savor every image. The piece then gets louder, of course, when the fight actually begins. 

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15 hours ago, Will said:

Ultimately, though, suspense is something that, at least for this film, is really only felt strongly on first viewing. The fact that a scene is suspenseful is not really a reason I would want to watch it over and over again -- whereas the fact that it has a beautiful film/music combo is. Suspense is a cool little thrill, but a piece of art can't retain interest for me if that's its main trick. There's certainly something to be said for movies where that is the case, though - I love many of them, just for a different reason! 

 

You're absolutely right - the Firebird basically telegraphs the fight's conclusion. If I may dredge up our old argument from last week: I wonder if our difference of opinion here has some relation to the emotion vs. beauty/wonder thing I was talking about. The former tends to be associated with how the story progresses throughout the film, and the suspense and other such things associated with that. The latter tends to be focused on savoring each moment individually, marveling at how music and picture dance their graceful waltz (I know that line is a little corny, but I still think it describes things pretty accurately!) Obviously, I appreciate emotion, suspense, etc. in film, but I also tend to place a pretty major emphasis on the beauty of an individual scene/cue. 

 

I just think the scene requires a sense of desperation and suspense in the music which The Firebird lacks. I mean...it's Kylo Ren vs Rey, dude! You don't just insert pretty flutes on top of that! I think that the moment when the brass kicks in works quite nicely (albeit still too upbeat) but the stuff before doesn't work with me.

 

I am not sure why you separate "beauty" from "emotion" like that. I enjoy beauty in a film too...because it makes me feel an emotion. And music and picture "dancing their graceful waltz" work best when they make sense together. This particular combination takes me out completely from the suspense of the fight. And for me the notion of suspense->release is a key aspect of any temporal art form. You seem to place a much smaller emphasis on it, which I guess is fair enough.

 

In any case, welcome to what it's like to be a film composer, where you're convinced that your musical decisions work fine while other people disagree with you. :D

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1 hour ago, Loert said:

 

I just think the scene requires a sense of desperation and suspense in the music which The Firebird lacks. I mean...it's Kylo Ren vs Rey, dude! You don't just insert pretty flutes on top of that! I think that the moment when the brass kicks in works quite nicely (albeit still too upbeat) but the stuff before doesn't work with me.

 

I think the fact that the scene plays with no sound effects here is probably contributing to my enjoyment as well. With no sound effects, the fight doesn't seem quite as cruel and raw, but once you add them I'm not sure if even I would still be okay with having the Firebird there. 

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