Popular Post Will 2,215 Posted August 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 29, 2017 https://www.dropbox.com/s/oz1zxerfocfakox/Rey vs. Ren (with Firebird Music).mp4?dl=0 For several months I've fantasized about how cool it would be to have TFA's climactic forest duel scored with the finale to Stravinsky's Firebird. Williams' "The Ways of the Force" is great, but at the same time it feels like a missed opportunity. For lack of a better word, it's not epic enough (and no, I don't just mean "choir" when I say epic!) That's not necessarily Williams' fault, of course -- Abrams probably dictated his approach to the scene. But, anyway, I finally got around to editing together the scene with Firebird. I took away a few bits of footage, and edited out one small bit of music near the end (I wanted to avoid music microediting, but unfortunately I was forced to in order to keep the sync points). I also cut out the X-wing trench run scene, which goes in between the two segments of the lightsaber battle in the film. Some of you may feel that the scene as edited here is almost comedically over-scored. But try to think about it like, I dunno, the creation scene in The Tree of Life (however hard that may be for some of you! ) It's not the typical approach to modern film scoring, but I don't think that makes it inherently bad. I find something profoundly beautiful and, well, epic about it. It hits you with a visceral force that matches the incredible passion of a lightsaber duel, something Williams' cue mostly failed to do until its last 30 seconds or so. It's the climax of the film, in a beautiful and unique setting ... yet the scene is far from my favorite in TFA -- and I think the musical approach is part of that (particularly given that I tend to be a music fan first and a film fan second!) I think the classical music helps it transcend being a normal hum-drum action scene and become something much more memorable. I don't know if you will agree, but that's how I feel! The recording used is Leonard Bernstein's with the NY Phil. I apologize for the low video quality - you might not want to play it in full screen! I think the quality might get slightly better if you download the video, although don't expect too much. Miguel Andrade, Cerebral Cortex, curlytoot and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Miguel Andrade 1,260 Posted August 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 29, 2017 I do not agree with you. I find Williams dramatic approach worked much better than the film edited with Stravinsky's music. Maybe it's just me, or the fact that The Firebird ranks among my favourite ballet scores for the past 30 years, and I can't dissociate the idea of the Firebird story from the music. I don't find it necessarily over scored, just oddly scored. But that's just me. At any rate, kudos for the edit, surely some stuff to think about. I just don't understand is this statement: Quote I think the classical music helps it transcend being a normal hum-drum action scene and become something much more memorable. Do you mean that Stravisnky is classical music, having then a different inner quality missing from Williams music? If so, what makes you call it classical music? Because to me they sure are both classical composers, in the regular sense given to the word. One just happens to spend most of his time writing for film. By the way, Stravinsky wanted to score a film, but negotiations never really got off the ground. If he did such a film score, would that still be a classical piece of music? Also, isn't a ballet score subject to the action do the dancers, not unlike a film score is to the action of the actors? Can't both be classical music? Don't take this as any sort of argument, Will, not trying to pick up a fight, just wondering about what you think Joni Wiljami, Will and Not Mr. Big 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 29, 2017 Also, Williams weaving in the themes for Rey, Kylo Ren, and the Force is what makes the music a vital part of the action. I love what Williams did and leave Stravinsky alone! Seriously, it's one of my favorite cues on the OST. Love those low brass statements of Rey's theme. Sharkissimo, Cerebral Cortex, Not Mr. Big and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted August 29, 2017 Author Share Posted August 29, 2017 50 minutes ago, Miguel Andrade said: Do you mean that Stravisnky is classical music, having then a different inner quality missing from Williams music? If so, what makes you call it classical music? Because to me they sure are both classical composers, in the regular sense given to the word. One just happens to spend most of his time writing for film. By the way, Stravinsky wanted to score a film, but negotiations never really got off the ground. If he did such a film score, would that still be a classical piece of music? Also, isn't a ballet score subject to the action do the dancers, not unlike a film score is to the action of the actors? Can't both be classical music? Don't take this as any sort of argument, Will, not trying to pick up a fight, just wondering about what you think Yeah, I didn't really mean to make a general statement there about "classical music" being inherently superior to film music, or anything like that (I would never denigrate our Lord and Savior John Williams like that! ) I was basically just referring to how Williams' cue is essentially standard action music. (Full disclosure: "The Ways of the Force" is not one of my favorite cues in TFA, even though I did enjoy it.) It's focused on keeping suspense, etc. But it doesn't covey the incredible weight and passion of the lightsaber duel (at least until the last 30 seconds or so), at least to my ears. The scene doesn't really transcend the basic first-viewing suspense role. We had a thread a while ago discussing "epicness" in film/music combinations. Quintus started it off with a terrific post, excerpted here: Quote Loud or soft though, the properties of epic scoring are perhaps more nuanced and complex than one might automatically assume them to be. In its most basic form a standard epic moment in a cue will simply appeal to our innate musical desires to be satisfied by some harmonic brass and percussion as the hero has their moment to shine or a mythical locale itself is given deserved musical recognition. But other times the ethereal voice of a soprano as heard in Forth Eorlingas (from TTT) suddenly taking centre stage above the din of audio effects can affect the viewer (and listener) in a way which is profound and even in the moment interpreted as being downright poetic. The epic music we hear can take on a mystic quality which we feel in ourselves - keen that we are sometimes to project our personal yearnings into the music as we marry the sound to the imagery. I like the Firebird with the forest duel because it somehow feels poetic to me in a way that Williams' cue doesn't (although several other Williams cues from the score do!) I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some others don't seem to have enjoyed the combination - epicness as defined by Quintus above is a very subjective thing that is hard to put into words. I suppose one way to explain it is that this is one manifestation of my continual yearning for film scenes that put the music in a truly important position, let the music dictate the rhythm and tone, with the film scene merely seeming to follow along, as if the pictures were just there to illustrate the music (perhaps this can be best found in ballet, as well as certain more art-sy films e.g. The Tree of Life?) Because as I've said, I'm really a music fan first and a film fan second. Miguel Andrade 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 29, 2017 I dunno about epic, but 0:30 - 1:00 is very emotional, reflecting the desperation and determination of Rey Then we spend 50 seconds or so with Kylo's material. Then we get that quiet, calm statement of the Force theme as Rey is able to tap into this unknowable mystical power before launching back into a powerful Rey's theme. Then finally the Force theme that leads to Rey's theme here that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up as she defeats and stands victorious over her foe: Basically, the track is a classic case for the power of thematic storytelling through score! Not Mr. Big, Will and Miguel Andrade 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,260 Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 11 minutes ago, Will said: Yeah, I didn't really mean to make a general statement there about "classical music" being inherently superior to film music, or anything like that (I would never denigrate our Lord and Savior John Williams like that! ) I was basically just referring to how Williams' cue is essentially standard action music. (Full disclosure: "The Ways of the Force" is not one of my favorite cues in TFA, even though I did enjoy it.) It's focused on keeping suspense, etc. But it doesn't covey the incredible weight and passion of the lightsaber duel (at least until the last 30 seconds or so), at least to my ears. The scene doesn't really transcend the basic first-viewing suspense role. My question is rather, is film music a genre, like classical music is (at least in a rather broad sense). Because when we talk, at least around here, about film music, he mostly refer to composers who write and work on the classical music moulds (surely the case of Williams). Now, if we are talking about the inner quality of a concert piece against a film cue, I can understand the argument. A concert piece follows a purely musical logic. A film cue, as much as it tries, still remains hostage of the images, so to speak. This hardly means that concert music is , by default, superior to film music. Surely not what I feel, as many of my favourite pieces of music come from film scores. I do agree though that the Finale of Firebird as a broad epic sense that might be missing from the Williams scoring of the scene, but to my ears and sensibility I still find Williams options more adequate. Again, and in the particular case in choosing the Stravinsky piece, I might be biased for attaching it too much to its original subject matter. I think I understand when you say "poetic"... I would say that musically, the Stravinsky shows a sense of freedom that Williams might not, as the scoring of the ballet was probably left much more to the composers discretion as opposed to the way films are scores, specially nowadays. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,510 Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 I feel like the Firebird music makes it too obvious that everything is going to turn out well. When you're watching the movie for the first time the music has to keep you on edge as to what the outcome will be. That Firebird music however plays after Ivan has lifted the curse in the ballet; it's basically a celebratory piece. In fact, the first time I listened to the Firebird ballet was as I was drifting to sleep, and as soon as that solo horn entered in the final scene, I had a vision of a father and son standing next to a telescope in the garden, and the father was pointing up at the night sky as if outlining a constellation to the young boy. It was a very peaceful image. On the other hand, that fight between Rey and Kylo Ren is not peaceful at all. So I have to agree with those that have said that Williams' music fits better. Nice post though, it's interesting to see and read about these attempts! Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted August 29, 2017 Author Share Posted August 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Miguel Andrade said: My question is rather, is film music a genre, like classical music is (at least in a rather broad sense). Because when we talk, at least around here, about film music, he mostly refer to composers who write and work on the classical music moulds (surely the case of Williams). Now, if we are talking about the inner quality of a concert piece against a film cue, I can understand the argument. A concert piece follows a purely musical logic. A film cue, as much as it tries, still remains hostage of the images, so to speak. This hardly means that concert music is , by default, superior to film music. Surely not what I feel, as many of my favourite pieces of music come from film scores. I do agree though that the Finale of Firebird as a broad epic sense that might be missing from the Williams scoring of the scene, but to my ears and sensibility I still find Williams options more adequate. Again, and in the particular case in choosing the Stravinsky piece, I might be biased for attaching it too much to its original subject matter. I think I understand when you say "poetic"... I would say that musically, the Stravinsky shows a sense of freedom that Williams might not, as the scoring of the ballet was probably left much more to the composers discretion as opposed to the way films are scores, specially nowadays. I didn't really mean to suggest that the fact that the Firebird isn't film music somehow inherently makes it free-er or better than film music. Williams is perfectly capable of writing music that totally transforms a scene and feels just as "free" as classical music (he's my favorite composer, of course!) - I just don't feel like he did that in this particular instance, and one day when I was listening to the Firebird's finale I suddenly wondered how that piece might work for this scene. 48 minutes ago, Loert said: I feel like the Firebird music makes it too obvious that everything is going to turn out well. When you're watching the movie for the first time the music has to keep you on edge as to what the outcome will be. That Firebird music however plays after Ivan has lifted the curse in the ballet; it's basically a celebratory piece. It's interesting that you say that because I had anticipated that reaction when I was putting together the video yesterday! Indeed, it's not as suspenseful (although it's hard to say how much impact the choice of music would make on first viewing anyway, with all the lightsaber sound effects and screams). Ultimately, though, suspense is something that, at least for this film, is really only felt strongly on first viewing. The fact that a scene is suspenseful is not really a reason I would want to watch it over and over again -- whereas the fact that it has a beautiful film/music combo is. Suspense is a cool little thrill, but a piece of art can't retain interest for me if that's its main trick. There's certainly something to be said for movies where that is the case, though - I love many of them, just for a different reason! You're absolutely right - the Firebird basically telegraphs the fight's conclusion. If I may dredge up our old argument from last week: I wonder if our difference of opinion here has some relation to the emotion vs. beauty/wonder thing I was talking about. The former tends to be associated with how the story progresses throughout the film, and the suspense and other such things associated with that. The latter tends to be focused on savoring each moment individually, marveling at how music and picture dance their graceful waltz (I know that line is a little corny, but I still think it describes things pretty accurately!) Obviously, I appreciate emotion, suspense, etc. in film, but I also tend to place a pretty major emphasis on the beauty of an individual scene/cue. 48 minutes ago, Loert said: In fact, the first time I listened to the Firebird ballet was as I was drifting to sleep, and as soon as that solo horn entered in the final scene, I had a vision of a father and son standing next to a telescope in the garden, and the father was pointing up at the night sky as if outlining a constellation to the young boy. It was a very peaceful image. On the other hand, that fight between Rey and Kylo Ren is not peaceful at all. So I have to agree with those that have said that Williams' music fits better. That's interesting - I find the beginning of the finale very peaceful too, but actually I think it fits very well with the picture. I love how you can see the swirling snow behind the characters as they pull for the lightsaber, and how the solo horn notes give me "space" to take in the scenery, to savor every image. The piece then gets louder, of course, when the fight actually begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,510 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 15 hours ago, Will said: Ultimately, though, suspense is something that, at least for this film, is really only felt strongly on first viewing. The fact that a scene is suspenseful is not really a reason I would want to watch it over and over again -- whereas the fact that it has a beautiful film/music combo is. Suspense is a cool little thrill, but a piece of art can't retain interest for me if that's its main trick. There's certainly something to be said for movies where that is the case, though - I love many of them, just for a different reason! You're absolutely right - the Firebird basically telegraphs the fight's conclusion. If I may dredge up our old argument from last week: I wonder if our difference of opinion here has some relation to the emotion vs. beauty/wonder thing I was talking about. The former tends to be associated with how the story progresses throughout the film, and the suspense and other such things associated with that. The latter tends to be focused on savoring each moment individually, marveling at how music and picture dance their graceful waltz (I know that line is a little corny, but I still think it describes things pretty accurately!) Obviously, I appreciate emotion, suspense, etc. in film, but I also tend to place a pretty major emphasis on the beauty of an individual scene/cue. I just think the scene requires a sense of desperation and suspense in the music which The Firebird lacks. I mean...it's Kylo Ren vs Rey, dude! You don't just insert pretty flutes on top of that! I think that the moment when the brass kicks in works quite nicely (albeit still too upbeat) but the stuff before doesn't work with me. I am not sure why you separate "beauty" from "emotion" like that. I enjoy beauty in a film too...because it makes me feel an emotion. And music and picture "dancing their graceful waltz" work best when they make sense together. This particular combination takes me out completely from the suspense of the fight. And for me the notion of suspense->release is a key aspect of any temporal art form. You seem to place a much smaller emphasis on it, which I guess is fair enough. In any case, welcome to what it's like to be a film composer, where you're convinced that your musical decisions work fine while other people disagree with you. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Psh, Will's just got temp love! He'd have forced Williams to ape Stravinsky just like Lucas in '77! Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Loert said: I just think the scene requires a sense of desperation and suspense in the music which The Firebird lacks. I mean...it's Kylo Ren vs Rey, dude! You don't just insert pretty flutes on top of that! I think that the moment when the brass kicks in works quite nicely (albeit still too upbeat) but the stuff before doesn't work with me. I think the fact that the scene plays with no sound effects here is probably contributing to my enjoyment as well. With no sound effects, the fight doesn't seem quite as cruel and raw, but once you add them I'm not sure if even I would still be okay with having the Firebird there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Why not use the Infernal Dance? Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I'd like to see Will rescore the scene with Rey and Finn running around the Jakku encampment with Yakety Sax Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now