Will 2,215 Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 I was just kind of wondering about this yesterday after some of @king mark's recent posts in which he suggested that Giacchino and Zimmer often got louder mixes than Williams, and also said that HPSS was the best mixed recent Williams score but that he hadn't truly liked a Williams film mix since the 80s. So, basically: Which Williams scores have been mixed loudest, and which have been buried the most? What about scores of other composers? Also, do other composers tend to get better or worse mixes than Williams? I just watched a few HPSS scenes to see if I agreed with KM. The owls scenes near the beginning had a great mix, but the opening of the Quidditch scene was a little quiet, particularly given that it was fanfaric and felt like it should have been louder. And then when the announcer starts it gets absolutely buried for a few seconds: I guess maybe even the best mixed films can't resist burying the score every once and a while. Or maybe it's just because this is an action scene? I'm the kind of person who gets annoyed if the score isn't mixed at its album volume, so I'm hard to please! If I had it my way, they would just blast the score way louder than the SFX and dialogue! I also get really annoyed when basically pointless sound effects get shoved over a perfect musical moment, e.g. this... https://youtu.be/8sarFZJl3h0?t=273 I'm not sure if most of you will factor in SFX volume into your "good score mix" rankings, but that definitely is important, because no matter how loud the score is, if the effects are even louder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 I remember the Star Wars OT, Superman,Indiana Jones, E.T. had great mixes in the theater. Every Williams score in the past 20 years have been mixed low where you can barely hear some cues. I had bad experiences with War Horse and BFG , like the music was only coming out from the front speakers at very low volume, sort of like watching it thorough TV speakers Memoirs of a Geisha and HPSS were mixed louder but still VERY FAR from current Giacchino/Zimmer levels. The music is sometimes so loud it hurts your ears, a far cry from Williams scores where your trying to barely make out the music crumbs and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 34 minutes ago, king mark said: I remember the Star Wars OT, Superman,Indiana Jones, E.T. had great mixes in the theater. I just watched the ANH opening scene and then the TFA opening scene, and I actually thought the music was mixed about equally well. Maybe other scenes in ANH were mixed better? 35 minutes ago, king mark said: I had bad experiences with War Horse and BFG , like the music was only coming out from the front speakers at very low volume, sort of like watching it thorough TV speakers Yeah, with War Horse (admittedly, I saw it on a TV, so it may have been different) I remember being really disappointed at the mix of "Plowing," for example. I was getting ready for big moment for the music to just take over, but I think it wasn't mixed loudly enough. And then in The BFG I was really distracted during the "Dream Country" scene because the music was often mixed really low, at least as compared to the album. 42 minutes ago, king mark said: Memoirs of a Geisha and HPSS were mixed louder but still VERY FAR from current Giacchino/Zimmer levels. The music is sometimes so loud it hurts your ears, a far cry from Williams scores where your trying to barely make out the music Do you have any specific examples of Giacchino/Zimmer scenes you thought were mixed loudly? Just wondering so I could look them up on YouTube. I haven't really watched that many films with their scores. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Even the main title in the newer Star Wars films was mixed very low. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Doesn't the Quidditch Match demand a more prominent mix, with all the pomp and celebration of the scene? My favourite mix in-film was in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, back when I saw it in 08 in theatres I remember the mix being quite pumped-up, especially during the Area 51 sequence. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 The blu-ray of Far and Away has a fantastic prominent mix of the score. Most other Williams scores on that format disappoint though. "Remastered" audio mixes made for people who want every movie to have Transformers-levels of surround sound cacophony. Will and Cerebral Cortex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, Arpy said: Doesn't the Quidditch Match demand a more prominent mix, with all the pomp and celebration of the scene? Yeah, that's what I think! Another example of where a great Williams fanfare was basically wasted was the Coruscant arrival in TPM. It starts off fine but then gets buried when the pilot starts talking. Just now, Not Mr. Big said: The blu-ray of Far and Away has a fantastic prominent mix of the score. Most other Williams scores on that format disappoint though. "Remastered" audio mixes made for people who want every movie to have Transformers-levels of surround sound cacophony. Oh that's a good point - I guess the original theater mix could be a little (or a lot?) different than the home video ones. Anyway, Far and Away certainly sounds pretty great here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 The IMAX screening of Raiders I went to a few years ago had the music boosted so loud it hurt, but that was probably the IMAX facility just having the volume up. Naïve Old Fart and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Many old DVDs have the music mixed in much too loud, whereas many new Blu-Ray have the music mixed in much too quiet. My old DVD from Under Fire is ear-piercing, when the music sets in. The new re-mastering of JFK is also very disappointing, as the music is hardly audible, unlike the DVD from the early 2000s. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Often this is explained by considering sound effects. Over the last 10 years they've become even more complex and take up a ton of frequency and stereo (surround) field real estate. Even music properly written to avoid conflict with it will inevitably get turned down. Guys like Zimmer who create much of their scores in the studio and natively in the surround format fare a little better because they have a little more wiggle room with navigating around tons of sound effects tracks while composing and then mixing. A more "flat" traditional symphonic recording offers less flexibility there. Sadly, if you as composer aren't there at the dub, or aren't represented by a champion music editor, you will get turned down in favor of something else. Guaranteed. And it will only get worse. toothless and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,523 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Evil-Lyn said: Even the main title in the newer Star Wars films was mixed very low. I remember that in 1999, I thought "Turn it up!" Now I don't care, 'cause I've got an amp that goes up to 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Modern movie scores deserve to be buried under sound effects! Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 7 hours ago, king mark said: I remember the Star Wars OT, Superman,Indiana Jones, E.T. had great mixes in the theater. Every Williams score in the past 20 years have been mixed low where you can barely hear some cues. I had bad experiences with War Horse and BFG , like the music was only coming out from the front speakers at very low volume, sort of like watching it thorough TV speakers Memoirs of a Geisha and HPSS were mixed louder but still VERY FAR from current Giacchino/Zimmer levels. The music is sometimes so loud it hurts your ears, a far cry from Williams scores where your trying to barely make out the music Close Encounters has the music very up front in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James 119 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Indiana Jones were the first movies to impress me with the louder music mix. But this was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Best: ET Worst: Dunkirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 8 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Modern movie scores deserve to be buried under sound effects! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome in Plaid 219 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 16 hours ago, BloodBoal said: Modern movie scores deserve to be buried under sound effects! Most modern movie scores are just sound effects! Best? Recently, HP1, the Prequels, Edge of Darkness, and all of Aronofsky's films stand out in my mind as particularly good. Worst? Sherlock Holmes 2 and BOFA, although the latter might be more due to the recording. Either way, how do major studio releases end up sounding that bad? Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James 119 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Transformers movie. I remember that loud music was the first reason for me to reject it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothless 963 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 The last movie where I got out thinking "woah this music editor must love soundtracks" was MI:Rogue Nation. I remember the music being really loud and mixed forward. Bofur01 and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,913 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 On 9/1/2017 at 2:58 PM, Will said: I also get really annoyed when basically pointless sound effects get shoved over a perfect musical moment, e.g. this... https://youtu.be/8sarFZJl3h0?t=273 I'm not sure if most of you will factor in SFX volume into your "good score mix" rankings, but that definitely is important, because no matter how loud the score is, if the effects are even louder... I think what you are calling out here is not so much a mix issue but a modern artifact of digital editing trends resulting in more frequent and haphazard late editing decisions that are in fact not addressing the problem with a scene. Take a look at this vintage ESB moment which is effectively the exact same sequence and similar musical pattern in the winds: The rocket sound effects are extremely loud BUT the musical softness comes AFTER the sound is gone so space is given to the sound and space is given to the score to both be effectively used in story telling. This is very rare to happen today because what would probably happen in modern film editing is they see a second that can be cut to help "tighten" the film by removing a second or two and the result is sound and score overlap where in the past, the lack of digital options to change an edit or mix so late in the process meant it had to be very deliberately planned. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,523 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Standouts for me, are SUPERMAN, ALIEN, TESB, ROTLA, TRON, BLADE RUNNER, ROTJ, TOD, and DUNE, all of which I saw in 70mm and 6-track magnetic stereo. I remember being surrounded - no...engulfed - by music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Wrath of Khan has a great mix, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Haha awesome signature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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