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Definition of "definitive"


cmh90790

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Thor brought up the analogy of a waiter bringing you a pizza with anchovies and calling it definitve even if you wouldn't classify it as such, as if that was analogous to a record label releasing a complete(ererer) score as complete as is currently possible as a 'definitive' edition. The two are not the same.

 

In the defined parameters of the pizza shop offering a 'definitive' pizza with only anchovies, that's just a shitty pizza restaurant. You have other pizza restaurants to base for comparison too. What makes a definitive pizza doesn't have the same parameters of what makes a definitive score release. Pizza's are largely customizable, score albums can only present more or less music, based on the two criteria of film versus album.

 

@Thor If the label releases the OST presentation alongside the C&C (like LLL have done) would that label be wrong in calling it definitive? It has every relevant piece of music written and included in the film, even for a fucking ride! No other edition thus far has included damn-near everything.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

But that only works if your definition of "definitive" is "something that includes everything!"

 

What about them damn olives on the pizza? What about them?

You can order pizzas with everything under the sun on them. "I said extra sarcasm!" Sorry we're all out of that sir....

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The Mona Lisa that hangs in the Louvre museum is not the definite version! 

 

'Definite' means that what the artist wants to release upon the world. That doesn't include pre-studies, early mixes, alternate takes, blah, blah, ...

 

All this waste of energy. We wouldn't have that problem if they just released one album. 

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4 minutes ago, Quintus said:

All I know is the LOTR CR absolutely blow the OSTs away. That's definitive enough for me.

 

But TTT in particular is a real drag on the CR. But the OST delivers a more rounded and satisfying listening experience. Sometimes, especially in this case, less is more.

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5 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

But TTT in particular is a real drag on the CR. But the OST delivers a more rounded and satisfying listening experience. Sometimes, especially in this case, less is more.

 

As with anything (even E.T.), I skip the tracks that don't do anything for me.

 

I never listen to albums from start to finish; for me a soundtracks listening session is to cherry pick. In that regard, the LOTR CRs are for me the ripest orchid of all music recorded for film. 

 

I mean, since we're doing daft analogues an all.

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Oh shit Quintus, you blasphemer, defiler of the holy listening experience which must be had in one sitting from start to finish without interruption or skipping, or personal preference!

19 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

As with anything (even E.T.), I skip the tracks that don't do anything for me.

 

I never listen to albums from start to finish; for me a soundtracks listening session is to cherry pick. In that regard, the LOTR CRs are for me the ripest orchid of all music recorded for film. 

 

I mean, since we're doing daft analogues an all.

 

I try to listen to the CR's from start to finish, but If I'm in a particular mindset or mood, I'll skip to more active tracks, or softer ones. Sometimes I feel battered after listening to The Siege of Gondor and really just want to relax with something like The Houses of Healing etc. The brilliant thing about choosing your listening experience, especially with LOTR is that no matter which track you listen to you can follow the narrative or the atmosphere!

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Nightscape94 really got the gist of it in the other thread:

 

Quote

While definitive means "conclusive" or "final" it can therefore be read and implied to mean the "last say in the matter", meaning the best that should be available, no need to go further.  

 

This is why I have an issue with the term, as applied to C&C releases -- and especially when it's used as some kind of universal truth, rather than the poster's personal opinion. It's a SUBJECTIVE term, so please don't assume it applies to everyone. I don't think any of the JW releases on LLL are definitive in this sense, for example. The definitive JW releases are almost always the original soundtrack, IMO.

 

This may sound like nitpicking, but it's quite important to me -- and part of a bigger problem that I've seen grow in the last 15 years or so. A related issue, and pet peeve of mine, is when I see people post requests for titles (especially on FSM) like "When will we see a release of DRACULA?" or some other title, without acknowledging that one already exists. It's the marginalization of the OST, talking as if it never existed (while in reality, it's an EXPANSION they desire).

 

Using words like 'definitive' and/or not acknowledging the OST can be quite provocative. Imagine for a moment that there is something you dislike, and you encounter people who call it the 'best ever - no discussion!'. Wouldn't you feel an urge to react or disagree, not only with the opinion itself, but the fact that it's presented as some universal truth?

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13 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Oh shit Quintus, you blasphemer, defiler of the holy listening experience which must be had in one sitting from start to finish without interruption or skipping, or personal preference!

 

I try to listen this way as much as possible.

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10 minutes ago, Thor said:

Nightscape94 really got the gist of it in the other thread:

 

 

This is why I have an issue with the term, as applied to C&C releases -- and especially when it's used as some kind of universal truth, rather than the poster's personal opinion. It's a SUBJECTIVE term, so please don't assume it applies to everyone. I don't think any of the JW releases on LLL are definitive in this sense, for example. The definitive JW releases are almost always the original soundtrack, IMO.

 

This may sound like nitpicking, but it's quite important to me -- and part of a bigger problem that I've seen grow in the last 15 years or so. A related issue, and pet peeve of mine, is when I see people post requests for titles (especially on FSM) like "When will we see a release of DRACULA?" or some other title, without acknowledging that one already exists. It's the marginalization of the OST, talking as if it never existed (while in reality, it's an EXPANSION they desire).

 

Using words like 'definitive' and/or not acknowledging the OST can be quite provocative. Imagine for a moment that there is something you dislike, and you encounter people who call it the 'best ever - no discussion!'. Wouldn't you feel an urge to react or disagree, not only with the opinion itself, but the fact that it's presented as some universal truth?

As I said earlier: LLL's E.T. contains both presentations of the score, the term applied in the case of the set is inclusive of both C&C and OST.

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7 minutes ago, Arpy said:

As I said earlier: LLL's E.T. contains both presentations of the score, the term applied in the case of the set is inclusive of both C&C and OST.

 

Yes, it's a good compromise solution, but it's not the 'definitive' for me, for the simple fact that I get a lot of superflous material that I didn't ask for. The 'definitive' will always remain the original soundtrack. Nothing more, nothing less.

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13 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

I try to listen this way as much as possible.

 

Same here. I always -- without exception -- try to listen to an album from start to finish, unless there are external factors interupting me. I don't "cherry-pick". For me, that would be like scrolling through a movie for favourite scenes or whatever.

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18 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

Exactly! The album is trying to tell me a musical story. I don't see people routinely only reading small excepts from books.

What if you're extremely familiar with the album to the point that listening to it in such a dogmatic way would be tedious? It's not like you can't understand the musical narrative or journey if you chose a cherry-picked listening experience, the contrary is possible.

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51 minutes ago, Arpy said:

The brilliant thing about choosing your listening experience, especially with LOTR is that no matter which track you listen to you can follow the narrative or the atmosphere!

 

The mark of compositional greatness.

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I've always had a problem with this " words are subjective and they can mean whatever I want them to" attitude to language, I think most can have a proper objective meaning. To me, a definitive score release clearly means that no sane person (yes, it applies to everybody - we don't live in our own little language bubble) has any reason to want a reissue, at least until the whole technology becomes obsolete.

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Personally, I want to hear as much music from the film as possible. I do, however, like the fact that there is no "definitive" release of anything. I like the idea that there can be a bespoke version of any score, and that fans can chop and change according to mood. After all, the fan bought the CDs, so the fan is entitled to listen to (or not listen to) whatever they choose.

If I was pushed for an answer, I'd say the OST is the definitive release of a score (even if it's not the OST :lol:). After all, it came first, and it is how the composer wanted the score represented. Of course, space and time was limited to either one or two records, and in-between 40 and 80 minutes. Nowadays it seems that the sky's the limit. Are we being offered too much music (Thor, put your hand down)?

The fact that there is no "definitive" release of anything, might be the "definitive" answer.

I could, of course, be wrong, but at least I am definitively wrong!

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10 minutes ago, Arpy said:

What if you're extremely familiar with the album to the point that listening to it in such a dogmatic way would be tedious? It's not like you can't understand the musical narrative or journey if you chose a cherry-picked listening experience, the contrary is possible.

 

But when listening to an OST, I want the musical narrative the composer picked. 

Just now, Richard said:

Are we being offered too much music?

 

Like I said, depending on how a presentation is paced and edited, sometimes less is more. I'd rather be riveted for 40-50 minutes than be restless for 110 minutes.

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4 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

I've done that loads of times in my younger years. Certain scenes I'd even rewind back the tape and watch again.

 

You're weird. ; )

 

(the only time I've done this is for academic/analytical purposes).

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13 minutes ago, Holko said:

I've always had a problem with this " words are subjective and they can mean whatever I want them to" attitude to language, I think most can have a proper objective meaning.

 

"Objective" is a very subjective term.

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15 minutes ago, Holko said:

I've always had a problem with this " words are subjective and they can mean whatever I want them to" attitude to language, I think most can have a proper objective meaning.

 

That's a rather bizarre statement.

 

Quote

To me, a definitive score release clearly means that no sane person (yes, it applies to everybody - we don't live in our own little language bubble) has any reason to want a reissue, at least until the whole technology becomes obsolete.

 

So anyone who doesn't agree with your view of what a 'definitive' release is, is insane? Got it.

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4 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

I've done that loads of times in my younger years. Certain scenes I'd even rewind back the tape and watch again.

That's not unusual. According to my parents I would always demand to rewatch a tape or replay a certain scene when I was a child. Nowadays I often like to watch or listen to music from a scene which is readily available on YouTube. 

 

1 minute ago, Thor said:

 

You're weird. ; )

Weird, especially on this forum, has no meaning! :D

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17 minutes ago, Thor said:

So anyone who doesn't agree with your view of what a 'definitive' release is, is insane? Got it.

 

No. The Jurassic Park OST is incomplete and non-chronological, it is not definitive. You're happy with it, others are not. The LLL Jurassic park has everything anyone could want, so it is definitive. Wanting even more from it, wich at this point could only be messed up takes, would be what I consider insane.

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5 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

No. The Jurassic Park OST is incomplete and non-chronological, it is not definitive.

 

Being incomplete and non-chronological, as the composer has calibrated for mass consumption, is what makes it definitive.

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19 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

No. The Jurassic Park OST is incomplete and non-chronological, it is not definitive.

 

You equate 'definitive' with being the most complete and chronological. I equate 'definitive' with being the original artistic vision of the OST and its re-structuring for listening. None of us are wrong or right. We evalute 'definitive' differently.

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OK, fair enough. Just one question: what did your comment saying you define "definitive" differently than others add to the E.T. conversation other than proving once again how self-centered and pretentious you can be?

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6 minutes ago, Holko said:

OK, fair enough. Just one question: what did your comment saying you define "definitive" differently than others add to the E.T. conversation other than proving once again how self-centered and pretentious you can be?

 

I'm neither sure what you refer to (what E.T. discussion?), nor why you need to resort to personal attacks.

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Sorry, mixing up threads. I mean if you think "definitive" only refers to your tastes, how was it constructive to say only the OSTs are definitive, when the guy was asking about the LLL releases, and thus surely, his definition of "definitie" is different?

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4 minutes ago, Holko said:

Sorry, mixing up threads. I mean if you think "definitive" only refers to your tastes, how was it constructive to say only the OSTs are definitive, when the guy was asking about the LLL releases, and thus surely, his definition of "definitie" is different?

 

Because it's worth pointing out that 'definitive' is subjective. It was presented as if it were an objective size.

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Just now, BloodBoal said:

So, there is no definitive definition of "definitive", then?

 

Yes, of course. The word itself has pretty clear meaning. But WHAT one considers 'definitive' varies. Same goes for words like "ultimate" or "greatest".

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