Definition of "definitive"

[KK 3,307]

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Subjectively, I'd say yes.

 

Objectively, I'd say no.

 

But what is art?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Art is something that subjectively creates an emotional response but that objectively leaves you cold.

[Quintus 5,399]

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

That's not unusual. According to my parents I would always demand to rewatch a tape or replay a certain scene when I was a child. Nowadays I often like to watch or listen to music from a scene which is readily available on YouTube. 

 

 

After I've watched a film I'll often use YouTube in this way, yes. The fact that there's normally dozens of uploads of the exact same scene 'favourites' suggests that such behaviour isn't "weird" at all

[Thor 7,504]

Being interested in specific scenes, whether for analysis or pleasure, isn't necessarily weird. But experiencing whole films by fastforwarding to specific scences, is, I think.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Have we come up with a definitive version of a definition for definitive yet?

 

Anyway, I think an OST release can only be definitive if it contains everything. 

 

I'd rather be able to take something away than not have something. It's nice having a composers OST presentation but said presentations are artificially limited by amount of music that can fit on a physical medium. 

 

LALALANDs practice of releasing the OST presentation on the second disc in conjunction with the C&C release is definitive to me. 

 

Saying that, I don't mind not having the OST presentation on Braveheart. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Why the fuck is anyone arguing about this stupid shit?

 

It's a stupid circular conversation where nobody says anything remotely intelligent and then at the end everyone says "Your opinion is your opinion and my opinion is my opinion, derp derp derp."

 

Thor, you have your precious OST what is the fucking point of telling anyone they shouldn't want something that they enjoy?  Nobody is telling you that.  Everyone else, you're not going to convince him of anything so stop wasting your time.

 

Everybody go jerk off instead, it'd be more productive.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

When was derp derp derp?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

What do you mean?   It's an expression.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Derp derp derp is a date, when was it?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Derp is an expression to indicate someone is acting like they're retarded.  It's how I've always heard it used.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Herp derp

[Quintus 5,399]

36 minutes ago, Thor said:

Being interested in specific scenes, whether for analysis or pleasure, isn't necessarily weird. But experiencing whole films by fastforwarding to specific scences, is, I think.

 

After I've already seen them in their entirety a couple of times? Not at all. What's the issue?

 

22 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Thor, you have your precious OST what is the fucking point of telling anyone they shouldn't want something that they enjoy?  Nobody is telling you that. 

 

Because it's Thor, he's a proactive contrarian oddball, and he's been pushing his world view in relation to this subject here and elsewhere for many years. 

 

I know of members here who have at one time actually wanted to see him banned from the forum, they straight-up told me this via PM. I very much disagreed with this ridiculously harsh suggestion, but it still stands out to me as a measure of Thor's longstanding antagonistic position in the community. However, I've long suspected he delights and revels in the "outsider" role he's worked hard at carving out for himself.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

People should only be banned if they're trying to trade iTunes gift cards for copyrighted material!

[Arpy 4,145]

23 minutes ago, Thor said:

Being interested in specific scenes, whether for analysis or pleasure, isn't necessarily weird. But experiencing whole films by fastforwarding to specific scences, is, I think.

Just the same way you choose to experience OSTs, the phenomena of fastforwarding to rewatch/relisten particular scenes/cues is a personal preference, no? Sometimes instead of wading through a film to relive certain moments isn't something one always has time for. 

[Thor 7,504]

27 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Why the fuck is anyone arguing about this stupid shit?

 

It's a stupid circular conversation where nobody says anything remotely intelligent and then at the end everyone says "Your opinion is your opinion and my opinion is my opinion, derp derp derp."

 

Thor, you have your precious OST what is the fucking point of telling anyone they shouldn't want something that they enjoy?  Nobody is telling you that.  Everyone else, you're not going to convince him of anything so stop wasting your time.

 

Everybody go jerk off instead, it'd be more productive.

 

Geez, just chill.

 

I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't have. That's some bizarre strawman rhetoric. My bone of contention was the arrogance/ignorance on display by those who claim THEIR particular view of a definitive release is applicable to everyone. You see, I'm interested in how people talk about things, and I'm worried about the marginalization of the OST within that kind of rhetoric.

 

If you have even an iota of empathy (which -- given your post -- I kinda doubt), I repeat what I said earlier: "Imagine for a moment that there is something you dislike, and you encounter people who call it the 'best ever - no discussion!'. Wouldn't you feel an urge to react or disagree, not only with the opinion itself, but the fact that it's presented as some universal truth?"

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I am indeed a human being with empathy, but it wears thin when I've seen the same debate threads over and over and over and over and over that never go anywhere.  And I've only been here like 20 months!  Also, it's not like anyone is mistreating you or violating your human rights.  Some people say some things about some music that you don't like and you voluntarily continue to engage in telling them so over decades.  I'll save my empathy for deserving people.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

Same here. I always -- without exception -- try to listen to an album from start to finish, unless there are external factors interupting me. I don't "cherry-pick". For me, that would be like scrolling through a movie for favourite scenes or whatever.

 

38 minutes ago, Thor said:

Being interested in specific scenes, whether for analysis or pleasure, isn't necessarily weird. But experiencing whole films by fastforwarding to specific scences, is, I think.

 

Interesting you should say that, while at the same time not understanding why some people prefer complete and chronological releases over arranged and abridged ones, because it is very much the same problem.

The reason some people don't like (some) arranged and abridged OST releases is because to them, it feels like fastforwarding to specific scenes of a film: just like for you, it is "weird" to do that because you don't get to experience the full picture, for them it is weird to get only a select few cues in a "random" order because they don't get to experience the full score.

With an abridged and arranged OST, you only get cues cherry-picked by the album producer, it's like scrolling through a score for his favourite cues or whatever.

[Holko 9,526]

Tried this one on him already, didn't work.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

3 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Subjectively, I'd say yes.

 

Objectively, I'd say no.

 

Ayn Rand would love this thread.

[Thor 7,504]

12 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I am indeed a human being with empathy, but it wears thin when I've seen the same debate threads over and over and over and over and over that never go anywhere.  And I've only been here like 20 months!  Also, it's not like anyone is mistreating you or violating your human rights.  Some people say some things about some music that you don't like and you voluntarily continue to engage in telling them so over decades.  I'll save my empathy for deserving people.

 

Well, if you're not interested in such discussions, that's fine by me. Personally, I'm very much interested in semantics, rhetorics, how we talk about things etc. -- especially when it has consequences for a whole paradigm. By requesting titles that already have a release (but without acknowledging them) or using words like 'definitive' as if it were some universal truth that everyone agreed on, it says something about the way we talk about soundtracks these days. And I find that both fascinating and worrying. It's worth mentioning and it's worth discussing.

 

Regarding empathy, it was a straighforward question which you refused to answer: If you dislike something, and encounter someone who calls it "the best ever - no discussion!", would you not react or disagree?

 

This isn't really a discussion of C&C vs. A&A, which I'm guessing is what you're really tired of. It's about how we talk about soundtracks.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

 

3 hours ago, Thor said:

 

You're weird. ; )

 

 

Hey Pot? It's me Kettle...you're black!

[Thor 7,504]

8 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

With an abridged and arranged OST, you only get cues cherry-picked by the album producer, it's like scrolling through a score for his favourite cues or whatever.

 

Only if the score-in-context matters to you when listening to soundtracks, which it really doesn't for people like me and Sally Spectra. The film and score-in-context is one thing, the soundtrack album is a completely different entity that lives its own life (if arranged properly). So no, it's not the same at all.

 

But again, this wasn't really supposed to be about C&C vs. A&A. We'll never agree on this, and it's mostly a fruitless enterprise. I thought the 'semantics'/meta angle about which terms we use was more interesting in this case.

[Quintus 5,399]

Heh, you're all made up now, Thor, because you found someone who you consider an ally in your corner. Drax of all people!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

So if you had your way, Thor, any time a soundtrack is expanded in a way that is definitive for many listeners in the community they should always say stuff like "I'm so happy to finally have a definitive (for me, because I enjoy scores as artifacts of the films they were written for and like listening to them in complete and chronological order but I recognize that other people feel differently and their perspective is perfectly valid) release of this score!!!"

 

It's implied.  We all know you feel differently.

[Thor 7,504]

2 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Heh, you're all made up now, Thor, because you found someone who you consider an ally in your corner. Drax of all people!

 

Plenty who share my view on this; here and elsewhere -- even if we might be in the minority on film music forums. But the prolific "JWFAN witch hunt" often gives a rather different impression.

[Quintus 5,399]

Thor Vs JWFan. You wouldn't have it any other way.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

But there is no witch hunt and the fact you perceive one is very telling.

[Thor 7,504]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

So if you had your way, Thor, any time a soundtrack is expanded in a way that is definitive for many listeners in the community they should always say stuff like "I'm so happy to finally have a definitive (for me, because I enjoy scores as artifacts of the films they were written for and like listening to them in complete and chronological order but I recognize that other people feel differently and their perspective is perfectly valid) release of this score!!!"

 

It's implied.  We all know you feel differently.

 

I'd prefer words like 'complete' or 'most extensive' etc. Or just a "to me, definitive".

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Ugh, so "IMO" as far as the eye can see. Eye.  Roll.

[Thor 7,504]

5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

But there is no witch hunt and the fact you perceive one is very telling.

 

Oh, there is. Very much so. I've never been in any other community (online or IRL) where the tolerance level for differing views is so low, where opposing viewpoints are so often taken personally. Even FSM pales in comparison.

 

Also, the fact that so many here are seemingly unable to see how a word like 'definitive' can be considered provocative for those who don't consider it definitive, is stunning, to say the least. It just confirms -- once again -- a lot of the prejudices I have about this place.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Stunning?  Haha.  You're somethin' else man.

[Thor 7,504]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

Stunning?  Haha.  You're somethin' else man.

 

Yeah. Lack of basic social understanding. That's stunning to me.

[Holko 9,526]

You just can't accept being the extreme minority here and take everything that can be considered mildly conflicting with your views personally (even if it has nothing to do with you), so you must let your voice be heard.

[Thor 7,504]

Just now, Holko said:

You just can't accept being the extreme minority here and take everything that can be considered mildly conflicting with your views personally (even if it has nothing to do with you), so you must let your voice be heard.

 

Well, I'm not the one resorting to personal attacks because I disagree with something, Holko. So who's taking it personally, exactly?

[Holko 9,526]

Who's the one crying witch hunt when they're the one joining in with something completely irrelevant just to contradict the general mindset?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Gents, please, calm down and listen to your definitive release of E.T.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

A bunch of people who feel this way about C&C soundtracks found out that, gasp, a whole bunch of other people feel the same way.  So excuse us if we don't verbally acknowledge every opposing viewpoint every time we state our opinion about something, aka a thing no one on earth does because it would be silly.

 

I bet people weren't so defensive the first time you ever brought it up.  But when you continually point out something we all already know ad nauseum, patience wears thin.

[Brónach 1,302]

They shouldn't release anything ever again.

[Thor 7,504]

8 minutes ago, Holko said:

Who's the one crying witch hunt when they're the one joining in with something completely irrelevant just to contradict the general mindset?

 

I don't even understand what that sentence means. The "witch hunt" is clearly evident in this thread from reading the replies over the last page or so.

 

The point of this thread was to discuss the word 'definitive' in relation to soundtrack releases. It was not to discuss C&C vs. A&A. Nor was it to "gang up on Thor". But clearly, a lot of people were unable to keep it focussed. I find this type of "discussion climate" very immature.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

38 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

 

Interesting you should say that, while at the same time not understanding why some people prefer complete and chronological releases over arranged and abridged ones, because it is very much the same problem.

The reason some people don't like (some) arranged and abridged OST releases is because to them, it feels like fastforwarding to specific scenes of a film: just like for you, it is "weird" to do that because you don't get to experience the full picture, for them it is weird to get only a select few cues in a "random" order because they don't get to experience the full score.

With an abridged and arranged OST, you only get cues cherry-picked by the album producer, it's like scrolling through a score for his favourite cues or whatever.

 

Is it also weird to watch a movie without all the deleted scenes reincorporated?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Comparing unreleased cues to deleted scenes? You're not very good at this game, Mr. Sally!

[Thor 7,504]

Before all the mudslinging, I was expecting (or hoping) for more constructive counter-arguments to my view. For example, an argument I had expected was this:

 

"So Thor, if you consider the OST the 'definitive' release in each and every case, then how do you account for the technological limitations at the time -- be it LP or CD? How do you know that the composer wouldn't want a longer release for his 'definitive' presentation at the time, but was hindered because of these limitations?"

 

See....now I'm stuck debating with myself, in lack of proper debatants.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I do actually prefer traditional OST presentations in many cases, and I usually like to listen to them first when I'm getting familiar with a score.  If I really like a score, then I'll also get an expanded release if one comes out.  It's interesting and oftentimes revelatory to hear all the music that wasn't on the OST, or maybe was dialed out in the film.  You're missing out on some very cool music from The Lost World, for instance.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

8 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Comparing unreleased cues to deleted scenes? You're not very good at this game, Mr. Sally!

 

It's the same thing. Scenes are deleted from films due to pacing and redundancy reasons, among others. A composer deletes tracks from his album for the same motivation.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

6 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

It's the same thing. Scenes are deleted from films due to pacing and redundancy reasons, among others. A composer deletes tracks from his album for the same motivation.

 

13 minutes ago, Thor said:

how do you account for the technological limitations at the time -- be it LP or CD? How do you know that the composer wouldn't want a longer release for his 'definitive' presentation at the time, but was hindered because of these limitations?"

 

There. Debate between yourselves. It'll be more fun that way.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Divide and conquer?

[bollemanneke 3,348]

5 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

Exactly! The album is trying to tell me a musical story. I don't see people routinely only reading small excepts from books.

But what if the album tells you an unchronological story? Makes no sense to me...

 

And Thor, you must be such a happy person, I envy you.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, bollemanneke said:

But what if the album tells you an unchronological story? Makes no sense to me...

 

The composer has created his own chronological order.

[Thor 7,504]

3 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

And Thor, you must be such a happy person, I envy you.

 

Generally yes, but this thread has ruined a bit of my usual upbeat Saturday mood, so I'm gonna bail outta here soon, have some dinner, a few beers, hook up with my friends downtown and forget all about JWFAN for a while.

[Bilbo 3,709]

21 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I do actually prefer traditional OST presentations in many cases, and I usually like to listen to them first when I'm getting familiar with a score.  If I really like a score, then I'll also get an expanded release if one comes out.  It's interesting and oftentimes revelatory to hear all the music that wasn't on the OST, or maybe was dialed out in the film.  You're missing out on some very cool music from The Lost World, for instance.

 

I do that if I haven't seen the film or the music in the film didn't make much of an impression.

 

For something like a new Star Wars by JW I'd rather just have the whole thing from the off.