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The Phantom Menace vs. The Force Awakens


Josh500

The Phantom Menace vs. The Force Awakens   

62 members have voted

  1. 1. Which John Williams score do you like better?

    • Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
      43
    • Star Wars: The Force Awakens
      19


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I don't think this is a question of which movie has the score mixed in better, or which movie has less music chopped up by the directors and editors. 

 

It's a question of which movie has prompted John Williams to write better music. Good music meaning, high quality, memorable, listenable, and long-enduring music, in your opinion.

 

I'm hard pressed to find anything in TFA that's better than Duel of the Fates....

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A hard decision for me, if I had the option, I'd say I like them both equally. The themes in TPM are stronger, but the singular and wholesome theme for Rey wins out over TPM by a smidgen!

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1 hour ago, Arpy said:

 the singular and wholesome theme for Rey wins out over TPM by a smidgen!

 

What is it about the theme of Rey that makes it so special? 

 

No, I know it's a great theme, but why is it so outstandingly special? 

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1 hour ago, Arpy said:

A hard decision for me, if I had the option, I'd say I like them both equally. The themes in TPM are stronger, but the singular and wholesome theme for Rey wins out over TPM by a smidgen!

 

So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following?

 

- Duel of Fates

- Anakin's theme

- Qui-Gonn's theme

- Flag Parade

- the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir)

- the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn

- the theme associated with the droid invasion

 

I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. 

 

 

 

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It might be the fact that it's more than a simple leitmotif - it's the core theme of the whole score which ties everything together.

 

I personally 100% prefer it over any of the themes/motifs Score just listed.

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24 minutes ago, Score said:

 

 

- Qui-Gonn's theme

- the theme associated with the droid invasion

 

 

 

These two themes are so damn underrated! I still get goosebumps hearing these themes played so masterfully and powerfully by the LSO.... 

 

And luckily for us, they aren't just played once or twice but several times throughout the score.

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27 minutes ago, Score said:

So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following?

 

- Duel of Fates

- Anakin's theme

- Qui-Gonn's theme

- Flag Parade

- the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir)

- the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn

- the theme associated with the droid invasion

 

I don't know if I prefer all of the musical moments listed to Rey's theme. A lot of them are none-recurring musical moments (Swimming to Otoh Gunga, the Flag Parade) or minor motifs that don't recur that often (e.g. Qui Gon's theme). That's a weakness of the otherwise terrific score for The Phantom Menace: Because Anakin is introduced relatively late in the film, and the duel happens at the very end, neither of two themes (which are the closest this film has to a main theme) permeate the entire score in the way that you want a main theme to do.

 

On the other hand, rely on the main theme too much (Empire Strikes Back, Attack of the Clones) and the score becomes almost an idee fixe score. I need another good listen or two to The Force Awakens to decide whether it overuses Rey's theme but I do recall it recurring a hell of a lot; but, to be fair, because its usually so lilting and delicate compared to Williams bolder main themes of old, it doesn't offend my sensibilities even if is overused.

 

But I do love the Droid Army march and the Funeral theme to bits!

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Williams' inability to develop themes properly in TPM is squarely on the shoulders of Lucas, who created an utterly incompetent film with a terrible narrative structure.

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I don't think he was unable to develop his themes: Qui Gon's motif, while fleeting, does turn to a nicely elegiac tone when he departs.

 

Anakin's theme also gets something of a workout: its both played in a more heroic mold where it segues into Luke's theme quite nicely, but it also receives statements that extend into that tantalizing hint of the Imperial March.

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It's not all about themes. TFA may be more, I guess, thematically consistent, but all it has to show for it are a couple nice moments and an end credits suite. TPM has the more interesting music.

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Qui-Gon's motif/theme was far more effective than Ray's theme for me. The way he uses it in Darth and Qui-Gon and New End of Darth Maul are Top Gun take my breath away moments that just never happened with the new themes or motives in TFA.

 

The Force Theme is better in TPM as well.

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1 hour ago, Score said:

 

So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following?

 

- Duel of Fates

- Anakin's theme

- Qui-Gonn's theme

- Flag Parade

- the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir)

- the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn

- the theme associated with the droid invasion

 

I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. 

 

 

 

I love TPM. Anakin and Group to Coruscant is one of my all-time favourite cues.

 

But, yes, I love Rey's Theme more. 

23 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's certainly more musically diverse than TFA.

But that was less of Williams' doing and moreso the limited palette which TFA afforded. No theme for Maz, no theme for the First Order, just a motif etc. TPM is more diverse because there's more to work with.

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I love the version of Rey's Theme played in the last track of the OST, the concert version. That's very powerful, catchy, adventurous, and somehow liberating.

 

Still, it's not better than Duel of the Fates, which wields an almost uncanny power. Choir and orchestra masterfully combined by the master JW himself! That's really unbeatable. 

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23 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Although to be fair, the choral work in it does become a little repetitive: Its just "Khorah matha, Khorah Rathama!" over and over again.

 

So? You probably think the Star Wars main theme gets a little repetitive too, right? After all, it's played at the beginning of (so far) 7 movies! 😂 

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IMO, probably the best theme introduced in TPM is the Trade Federation March. It gives even The Imperial March a run for its money. Very Indiana Jones-esque, if you ask me.

 

Duel of the Fates is a brilliant composition, but it's not nearly as re-listenable as most of the other themes introduced in the film, and the concert suite is rather a chore to get through.

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3 hours ago, Score said:

 

So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following?

 

- Duel of Fates

- Anakin's theme

- Qui-Gonn's theme

- Flag Parade

- the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir)

- the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn

- the theme associated with the droid invasion

 

I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. 

 

 

 

I like Duel of Fates, Gui-Gonn’s funeral och the trade Federation March. The rest is okay but nothing I want to listen to that often. 

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5 minutes ago, hornist said:

Gorgeous and brilliant music but there is no heart.

 

TFA is full of it.

 

Well, these droids don't have heart, either, that's why.

 

Anakin's Theme and everything associated with Anakin is full of heart....

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I don't think Williams' writing is emotionally indifferent. Stuff like Across the Stars or the Lament theme are some of the most moving music ever composed for Star Wars. Nothing in The Force Awakens even comes close.

 

Agreed! 👍

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There was nowhere for Anakin's theme to go after TPM. It was a theme befitting of a young boy. The Force Theme was mainly associated with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the sequels and I think that was the right choice.

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46 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Stuff like Across the Stars or the Lament theme are some of the most moving music ever composed for Star Wars. Nothing in The Force Awakens even comes close.

 

But this thread is about the Phantom Menace, not the prequels in general.

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28 minutes ago, Holko said:

But this thread is about the Phantom Menace, not the prequels in general.

 

There is more emotion and creativity in TPM than TFA, for me. TFA is a score for a film that is basically giving the people what they supposedly want. Many space action scenes connected by scenes of comedy and an occasional "dramatic" scene. The fast Abrams pacing of the movie meant there was little opportunity for Williams to settle into it musically. The few scenes where he does, the music sounds like TPM! That's what I thought, anyway. There are still many awesome pieces and the score as a whole is almost perfectly represented on the album, which could still use a little trimming. It's a complete score I don't desire to hear.

 

TPM was something completely different. It gave Williams a chance to deliver the kind of music Andre Previn always wanted him to do. It is a very rich score supporting the many dialogue scenes and wild settings. The Star Wars scores had been getting progressively longer since the first movie. That one was pretty expertly spotted and had many scenes without music. Empire had too much music, but they undid some of the damage done during the spotting sessions in post. Jedi was scored seemingly almost wall-to-wall. The prequels followed suit. The results vary, with a lot of Mickey Mousy music in Jedi, for instance, that doesn't translate well as a listening experience. On the other hand, Phantom is brilliant from beginning to end, like Harry Potter 1.

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7 hours ago, Score said:

 

So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following?

 

- Duel of Fates

- Anakin's theme

- Qui-Gonn's theme

- Flag Parade

- the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir)

- the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn

- the theme associated with the droid invasion

 

I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. 

 

 

 

Although, Rey's Theme is obviously one of the most elaborate themes, I prefer every of those themes mentioned over it. They have more emotional impact on me. In fact, it was the March of the Resistance that draw my attention to TFA.

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TPM is scored wall to wall with a lot of unnecessary as well. That’s one of the issues of the film. Most of it is boring meandering music that I guess Williams felt would add some importance to the scene, or Lucas didn’t have the courage to take the music out.

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Just now, El Jefe said:

TPM is scored wall to wall with a lot of unnecessary as well. That’s one of the issues of the film. Most of it is boring meandering music that I guess Williams felt would add some importance to the scene, or Lucas didn’t have the courage to take the music out.

 

I disagree. I love all of it.

 

I also miss this version of JWFan. Have I gone back in time?

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4 minutes ago, El Jefe said:

TPM is scored wall to wall with a lot of unnecessary as well. That’s one of the issues of the film. Most of it is boring meandering music that I guess Williams felt would add some importance to the scene, or Lucas didn’t have the courage to take the music out.

 

Yes!

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