Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 I don't think this is a question of which movie has the score mixed in better, or which movie has less music chopped up by the directors and editors. It's a question of which movie has prompted John Williams to write better music. Good music meaning, high quality, memorable, listenable, and long-enduring music, in your opinion. I'm hard pressed to find anything in TFA that's better than Duel of the Fates.... Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 The Phantom Menace for me. The score is 75% of what makes the movie watchable (assuming you think it is, which I do, but only barely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 So TMP is a better score because its for a worse movie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 A hard decision for me, if I had the option, I'd say I like them both equally. The themes in TPM are stronger, but the singular and wholesome theme for Rey wins out over TPM by a smidgen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Arpy said: the singular and wholesome theme for Rey wins out over TPM by a smidgen! What is it about the theme of Rey that makes it so special? No, I know it's a great theme, but why is it so outstandingly special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Because it's beautiful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Because it's beautiful? You think the prequels themes aren't beautiful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Score 770 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Arpy said: A hard decision for me, if I had the option, I'd say I like them both equally. The themes in TPM are stronger, but the singular and wholesome theme for Rey wins out over TPM by a smidgen! So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following? - Duel of Fates - Anakin's theme - Qui-Gonn's theme - Flag Parade - the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir) - the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn - the theme associated with the droid invasion I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. Josh500 and Arpy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,400 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It might be the fact that it's more than a simple leitmotif - it's the core theme of the whole score which ties everything together. I personally 100% prefer it over any of the themes/motifs Score just listed. Not Mr. Big and Arpy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 24 minutes ago, Score said: - Qui-Gonn's theme - the theme associated with the droid invasion These two themes are so damn underrated! I still get goosebumps hearing these themes played so masterfully and powerfully by the LSO.... And luckily for us, they aren't just played once or twice but several times throughout the score. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,903 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 27 minutes ago, Score said: So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following? - Duel of Fates - Anakin's theme - Qui-Gonn's theme - Flag Parade - the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir) - the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn - the theme associated with the droid invasion I don't know if I prefer all of the musical moments listed to Rey's theme. A lot of them are none-recurring musical moments (Swimming to Otoh Gunga, the Flag Parade) or minor motifs that don't recur that often (e.g. Qui Gon's theme). That's a weakness of the otherwise terrific score for The Phantom Menace: Because Anakin is introduced relatively late in the film, and the duel happens at the very end, neither of two themes (which are the closest this film has to a main theme) permeate the entire score in the way that you want a main theme to do. On the other hand, rely on the main theme too much (Empire Strikes Back, Attack of the Clones) and the score becomes almost an idee fixe score. I need another good listen or two to The Force Awakens to decide whether it overuses Rey's theme but I do recall it recurring a hell of a lot; but, to be fair, because its usually so lilting and delicate compared to Williams bolder main themes of old, it doesn't offend my sensibilities even if is overused. But I do love the Droid Army march and the Funeral theme to bits! Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,275 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Williams' inability to develop themes properly in TPM is squarely on the shoulders of Lucas, who created an utterly incompetent film with a terrible narrative structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,903 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I don't think he was unable to develop his themes: Qui Gon's motif, while fleeting, does turn to a nicely elegiac tone when he departs. Anakin's theme also gets something of a workout: its both played in a more heroic mold where it segues into Luke's theme quite nicely, but it also receives statements that extend into that tantalizing hint of the Imperial March. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It's not all about themes. TFA may be more, I guess, thematically consistent, but all it has to show for it are a couple nice moments and an end credits suite. TPM has the more interesting music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,275 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It's certainly more musically diverse than TFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Qui-Gon's motif/theme was far more effective than Ray's theme for me. The way he uses it in Darth and Qui-Gon and New End of Darth Maul are Top Gun take my breath away moments that just never happened with the new themes or motives in TFA. The Force Theme is better in TPM as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Score said: So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following? - Duel of Fates - Anakin's theme - Qui-Gonn's theme - Flag Parade - the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir) - the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn - the theme associated with the droid invasion I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. I love TPM. Anakin and Group to Coruscant is one of my all-time favourite cues. But, yes, I love Rey's Theme more. 23 minutes ago, crumbs said: It's certainly more musically diverse than TFA. But that was less of Williams' doing and moreso the limited palette which TFA afforded. No theme for Maz, no theme for the First Order, just a motif etc. TPM is more diverse because there's more to work with. Not Mr. Big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Sure, you people all love Rey's Theme but do you really prefer it to Jar Jar's Introduction Watto's Deal Desert Winds (source) Sebulba's Dirty Hand and Augie's Municipal Band??? Ollie and John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Everything but the source music. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 I love the version of Rey's Theme played in the last track of the OST, the concert version. That's very powerful, catchy, adventurous, and somehow liberating. Still, it's not better than Duel of the Fates, which wields an almost uncanny power. Choir and orchestra masterfully combined by the master JW himself! That's really unbeatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,903 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Although to be fair, the choral work in it does become a little repetitive: Its just "Khorah matha, Khorah Rathama!" over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I never cared for that TPM church music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 23 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Although to be fair, the choral work in it does become a little repetitive: Its just "Khorah matha, Khorah Rathama!" over and over again. So? You probably think the Star Wars main theme gets a little repetitive too, right? After all, it's played at the beginning of (so far) 7 movies! 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 That's not the same! And yes, DOTF runs a bit long. Those false endings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 IMO, probably the best theme introduced in TPM is the Trade Federation March. It gives even The Imperial March a run for its money. Very Indiana Jones-esque, if you ask me. Duel of the Fates is a brilliant composition, but it's not nearly as re-listenable as most of the other themes introduced in the film, and the concert suite is rather a chore to get through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smaug The Iron 497 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Score said: So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following? - Duel of Fates - Anakin's theme - Qui-Gonn's theme - Flag Parade - the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir) - the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn - the theme associated with the droid invasion I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. I like Duel of Fates, Gui-Gonn’s funeral och the trade Federation March. The rest is okay but nothing I want to listen to that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,205 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Gorgeous and brilliant music but there is no heart. TFA is full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, hornist said: Gorgeous and brilliant music but there is no heart. TFA is full of it. Well, these droids don't have heart, either, that's why. Anakin's Theme and everything associated with Anakin is full of heart.... Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,205 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Nope. I love all of it but no heart. The film is horrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Anakin's Theme is a bit underwelming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,053 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Anakins theme is sweet but it never went anywhere after TPM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,205 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 The whole trilogy is full of amazingly good music sadly ruined by the idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ollie 1,053 Posted October 15, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2017 There’s just some about Rey’s theme, it feels as if Williams was more taken with this character than any in the prequels. Joni Wiljami, Jay, Docteur Qui and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,400 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 That's not too difficult, considering the prequels didn't have many characters, just cardboard cutouts saying words. Docteur Qui 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 3,903 Posted October 15, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2017 I don't think Williams' writing is emotionally indifferent. Stuff like Across the Stars or the Lament theme are some of the most moving music ever composed for Star Wars. Nothing in The Force Awakens even comes close. Bilbo, Josh500, Gruesome Son of a Bitch and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I don't think Williams' writing is emotionally indifferent. Stuff like Across the Stars or the Lament theme are some of the most moving music ever composed for Star Wars. Nothing in The Force Awakens even comes close. Agreed! 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 There was nowhere for Anakin's theme to go after TPM. It was a theme befitting of a young boy. The Force Theme was mainly associated with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the sequels and I think that was the right choice. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,400 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 46 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Stuff like Across the Stars or the Lament theme are some of the most moving music ever composed for Star Wars. Nothing in The Force Awakens even comes close. But this thread is about the Phantom Menace, not the prequels in general. Joni Wiljami and Josh500 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 28 minutes ago, Holko said: But this thread is about the Phantom Menace, not the prequels in general. There is more emotion and creativity in TPM than TFA, for me. TFA is a score for a film that is basically giving the people what they supposedly want. Many space action scenes connected by scenes of comedy and an occasional "dramatic" scene. The fast Abrams pacing of the movie meant there was little opportunity for Williams to settle into it musically. The few scenes where he does, the music sounds like TPM! That's what I thought, anyway. There are still many awesome pieces and the score as a whole is almost perfectly represented on the album, which could still use a little trimming. It's a complete score I don't desire to hear. TPM was something completely different. It gave Williams a chance to deliver the kind of music Andre Previn always wanted him to do. It is a very rich score supporting the many dialogue scenes and wild settings. The Star Wars scores had been getting progressively longer since the first movie. That one was pretty expertly spotted and had many scenes without music. Empire had too much music, but they undid some of the damage done during the spotting sessions in post. Jedi was scored seemingly almost wall-to-wall. The prequels followed suit. The results vary, with a lot of Mickey Mousy music in Jedi, for instance, that doesn't translate well as a listening experience. On the other hand, Phantom is brilliant from beginning to end, like Harry Potter 1. Josh500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Its a pity the themes weren't as good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 7 hours ago, Score said: So, do you prefer Rey's theme over all of the following? - Duel of Fates - Anakin's theme - Qui-Gonn's theme - Flag Parade - the music for the swim to Otoh Gunga (the piece with choir) - the music for the funeral of Qui-Gonn - the theme associated with the droid invasion I'm curious because I have exactly the opposite feeling: on purely musical terms, I prefer any of these over Rey's theme. Although, Rey's Theme is obviously one of the most elaborate themes, I prefer every of those themes mentioned over it. They have more emotional impact on me. In fact, it was the March of the Resistance that draw my attention to TFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It's not always about themes, my old friend. So much of TPM isn't thematic and it's wonderful music. Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Its a pity the themes weren't as good Why is little on focus themes, necessarily bad? That's why I love Empire of the Sun. Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,053 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 TPM is scored wall to wall with a lot of unnecessary as well. That’s one of the issues of the film. Most of it is boring meandering music that I guess Williams felt would add some importance to the scene, or Lucas didn’t have the courage to take the music out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Just now, El Jefe said: TPM is scored wall to wall with a lot of unnecessary as well. That’s one of the issues of the film. Most of it is boring meandering music that I guess Williams felt would add some importance to the scene, or Lucas didn’t have the courage to take the music out. I disagree. I love all of it. I also miss this version of JWFan. Have I gone back in time? Josh500 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, El Jefe said: TPM is scored wall to wall with a lot of unnecessary as well. That’s one of the issues of the film. Most of it is boring meandering music that I guess Williams felt would add some importance to the scene, or Lucas didn’t have the courage to take the music out. Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 I'm listening to TPM now, and God, I love The Droid Invasion and Qui-Gonn's Noble End! So Star Wars, only JW could have written them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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