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John Williams And Nikola Tesla


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I think Williams IS a genius, but not necessarily in the 'paving new ground' way.

 

I tried to watch the first two minutes of that video, but quickly turned off. Silliness galore.

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2 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Williams has certainly paved new ground.  His harmonic language is an important fusion in the Third Stream vein, if not totally pure. 

 

He operated within that style early on, but he was hardly a pioneer in it. Williams has never been a pioneer of anything in terms of 'new styles and sounds'.

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No question jazz is ingrained in Williams' music -- even seemingly straight-up neo-romanticism like STAR WARS. But it's by no means a pioneering effort.

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37 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Thor. I understand that you are a self styled JW historical scholar.  But you are out of your depth on serious musical matters, and it isn't a flattering look on you. 

 

Oh, get off your high horse. You don't have to be a music expert to suggest that Williams has not been a pioneer. Influential? Sure. In more ways than one. Being part of a 'cutting edge' musical scene at some point? I'll agree on that too. But don't confuse that with "paving new ground".

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You're the one who is confused, Thor.  This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. 

 

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Please enlighten us with your acumen, Pilgrim?

 

We have many threads about this subject from over the years.  Williams has indeed pioneered a new subtle shade of harmony and voicing which absolutely represents new musical ground. There's no real argument here, unless you muddy up the semantics as Thor does, often, to make it seem as though you're on the winning side of something not there in the first place. 

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Well, semantics are important. Unless you can convince me Williams "the musical trailblazer" somehow deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as people like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Berg, Glass, Kraftwerk, Chuck Berry, Paul Oakenfold etc. -- genuine pioneers of their respective musical arenas -- then it's hard just to take your word for it.

 

You mentioned "Third Stream" earlier. While Williams could certainly be seen as one out of several composers practicing this style in the 60s, in particular (with pieces such as "Prelude and Fugue"), I've never seen him referenced as a major reference point. In fact, I've never seen him mentioned in any literature as being a composer who "paved new ground" in a purely musical sense. Isn't that a bit strange? Or do you possess the secret key to some niche groundbreaking that the rest of the world doesn't?

 

Personally, I think that attributing this particular trait to Williams is more about "projecting" than a truthful assessment. It's more fruitful, IMO, to investigate other areas where his true genius or influence lie.

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You're quite lazily looking at the surface level of his music only.  The prelude and fugue is in fact a pretty poor example, it's a clumsy collage rather than a seamless melding.  Something like Heartwood would be more apt.  I know a ton of jazz cats who love that piece and think it's something unique and really musically progressive, and many here feel the same way.  As I said, it's been discussed by us much over the years. 

 

That you haven't seen "literature" on it (yawn) is unsurprising.  How well documented is this whole field as of yet?  You yourself lament its state.  Couple that with the fact that there is no radical trailblazing happening - note that you invented that supposed groundbreaking, world altering weight that I nowhere suggested, another example of your semantic bullshit - and it is to be expected that this isn't something extensively written about in academic circles yet, if it ever will be.  It is however a real and exciting bit of musical evolution to many, and it has already shaped the music of younger composers.  I see it firsthand. 

 

I give you reports from on the ground, the thoughts of musicians and musicologists, alas, not published or peer reviewed.  It shouldn't surprise me that your pedantic self can't accept something into your brain if it isn't in a damn thesis.  

 

My god, I think you need to go on the ignore list if such a simple comment of mine requires this much explication for you. 

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14 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

You're quite lazily looking at the surface level of his music only.  The prelude and fugue is in fact a pretty poor example, it's a clumsy collage rather than a seamless melding.  Something like Heartwood would be more apt.  I know a ton of jazz cats who love that piece and think it's something unique and really musically progressive, and many here feel the same way.  As I said, it's been discussed by us much over the years. 

 

That you haven't seen "literature" on it (yawn) is unsurprising.  How well documented is this whole field as of yet?  You yourself lament its state.  Couple that with the fact that there is no radical trailblazing happening - note that you invented that supposed groundbreaking, world altering weight that I nowhere suggested, another example of your semantic bullshit - and it is to be expected that this isn't something extensively written about in academic circles yet, if it ever will be.  It is however a real and exciting bit of musical evolution to many, and it has already shaped the music of younger composers.  I see it firsthand. 

 

I give you reports from on the ground, the thoughts of musicians and musicologists, alas, not published or peer reviewed.  It shouldn't surprise me that your pedantic self can't accept something into your brain if it isn't in a damn thesis.  

 

My god, I think you need to go on the ignore list if such a simple comment of mine requires this much explication for you. 

 

As expected, you provide no concrete argument about Williams' pioneering efforts in this post, and instead -- predictably -- resort to personal attacks instead.

 

Note that this thread came out of a comparison between Williams and Nikola Tesla, and although that particular premise is ridiculous, it nonetheless set the bar for what TYPE of trailblazing we're talking about here: Tesla-type pioneering, applied to music. Some of the names I mentioned earlier would be on that level, if transcribed to music. If Williams had been on a similar level, he would -- somewhere and at some point -- have been a reference point in literature on musical history, whether broad or niche. But he isn't (that I'm aware of). That you've been talking with musicologists "on the ground", and they've said how great and even progressive a Williams piece, isn't exactly a fully convincing argument in and of itself.

 

Williams is many great things, and has been influential in many ways, but a musical trailblazer he is not. But if you could tone down the aggressive rhetoric, I would be genuinely interested in hearing how and where you find this "secret" pioneering effort. You say it's been discussed many times before; well, I think I've missed those particular discussions here on the forum.

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Your own smug demeanor gives me no urge to tone down my own aggression.  All this business about types of trailblazing... it's utterly irrelevant. I didn't watch the video. It's not what I'm talking about. 

 

It was suggested that Williams has made no personal musical advances through his work.  I suggested that he has, I explained to you the nature of those advances, where to hear them, and that it's hardly just my own speculation/opinion. 

 

You're simply an outrageous person - and that is DEFINITELY not my own speculation/opinion.  And with that, I will cease interaction with you, as it is without merit. 

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13 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

It was suggested that Williams has made no personal musical advances through his work.  I suggested that he has, I explained to you the nature of those advances, where to hear them, and that it's hardly just my own speculation/opinion. 

 

No, it was not about PERSONAL advances. Of course he's evolved as a composer. We're talking about any pioneering efforts of a particular musical style far beyond himself. I thought that was pretty clear. I've also seen no "explanations of those advances" from you other than a reference to "Third Stream".

 

Seriously, The Grey Pilgrim, you act like a drama queen here. If you can't even have an adult conversation about the merits of the statement that "Williams was a musical pioneer" without resorting to threats of ignore lists and various other personal attacks, then your skin is too thin. Or maybe you're just having a bad day.

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For god's sake.  Personal meaning specific and unique to him, not meaning merely within the bounds of his own output or growth as a composer. 

 

I didn't set out to provide you with any examples, or even to convince you of anything, which is why you've gotten none.  I'm just responding to your own responses because I don't like being misunderstood and misinterpreted.  But it seems futile with you.  

 

And I'm not threatening to ignore you, I am doing it forthwith.  I will sleep soundly and not worry much that the biggest drama queen of the film music community himself thinks I have thin skin. 

 

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56 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

And I'm not threatening to ignore you, I am doing it forthwith.  I will sleep soundly and not worry much that the biggest drama queen of the film music community himself thinks I have thin skin. 

 

Ha, ha....I'm stubborn and opinionated, true, but hardly ever act as 'drama queen' (i.e. where the rhetoric contains personal attacks that are disproportionate to the topic actually being discussed). Your strange behaviour in this thread, however, seemed wildly out of proportion in relation to the relatively innocent topic of "Is Williams a musical pioneer?". I could only surmise from that a) your skin is too thin, b) you're having a bad day or c) you're frustrated because there is no argument or empirical evidence suggesting Williams has trailblazed any musical styles.

 

All that being said, I'm open to possible misunderstandings between us in this cyberspace world of ours. I'm not quite sure what you mean with "Personal meaning specific and unique to him" in this context, for example. When Arnold Schoenberg pioneered 12-tone techniques in music, I'm sure it also had "personal meaning specific and unique to him", but as it happens, it was also something that went beyond himself and his personal growth. This is the type of radical pioneering I -- personally -- was talking about, pr. the Nikola Tesla comparison in the first post. Something for the history books, whether broad or niche. If you had a different kind of 'trailblazing/pioneering/paving new ground' idea in mind for Williams, then I'm all ears.

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TGP is making my occasional tantrums look mild.

 

Thor has some good points, and TGP is not giving a lot of specific examples because "ive talked about this several times over the years".

 

If you're not willing to state your case, don't become all precious when you're not getting your point across.

 

I think JW is a brilliant composer, but not because he is particularly innovative. He just writes incredible music. 

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12 hours ago, Thor said:

Tesla-type pioneering, applied to music. Some of the names I mentioned earlier would be on that level, if transcribed to music. If Williams had been on a similar level, he would -- somewhere and at some point -- have been a reference point in literature on musical history, whether broad or niche.

 

Was Tesla such a reference during his lifetime? I honestly don't know the answer.

 

On this subject, though, what seems to be less discussed is the place of marketing and its impact on "pioneering" or "revolutionary" endeavors of any sort. One only has to look at Charles Ives as an example of this: in the earlier parts of the 20th century, no one talked about him, essentially. Composers such as Stravinsky were given the reputation of being trailblazers (not unwarranted). It was only after Ives' music, long after its initial conception in many cases, was championed more loudly by more adventurous musicians that he became revered as a "revolutionary genius". And who knows what other artists, inventors, etc. were not given a spot in history as an innovator due to "bad marketing".

 

With Williams there is a deeply personal and unique voice, one that's a synthesis of influences both clear and intangible at the same time (how many would've spotted his taste for Eric Dolphy or Duke Ellington had he not directly stated it? But after you know, the ties that bind become much more evident). At this point, it seems Williams' influence, his _true_ influence-- not "John Williams writes big fanfares and sweeping themes, I'm gonna write those too!"--seems more subversive, subtly impacting those who truly listen. I think what remains to be seen is whether or not these ripples will catch on with the Music World(TM) at large.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Was Tesla such a reference during his lifetime? I honestly don't know the answer.

 

On this subject, though, what seems to be less discussed is the place of marketing and its impact on "pioneering" or "revolutionary" endeavors of any sort. One only has to look at Charles Ives as an example of this: in the earlier parts of the 20th century, no one talked about him, essentially. Composers such as Stravinsky were given the reputation of being trailblazers (not unwarranted). It was only after Ives' music, long after its initial conception in many cases, was championed more loudly by more adventurous musicians that he became revered as a "revolutionary genius". And who knows what other artists, inventors, etc. were not given a spot in history as an innovator due to "bad marketing".

 

 

 

I love Ives' songs the best.  He wrote such interesting art songs.

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