The day Hans Zimmer turned John Williams into ‘Christmas sounds’…

[Sandor 797]

I was recently struck by the general outcry of negative response to Danny Elfman’s score for Justice League.

 

I’m aware that Elfman’s score hasn’t received a warm welcome within the film music community, citing its lack of cohesion and generic approach, but the ‘general outcry’ I’m refering to is coming more vocally from the average filmgoer, people in their teens and 20’s, an audience that has no historic connection with traditional symphonic scoring -or film music for that matter- and have been molded by cinema since the dawn of the new millennium.

 

The same people that were disappointed by the soundtrack of The Force Awakens, because the ‘most epic music’ wasn’t on it, refering to the music from the trailers.

 

Somewhere along the way Hans Zimmer and his RCP-henchmen have hijacked ‘epicness’ and redefined it for a new generation.

 

This has become fully apparant after reading the talkback on Elfman’s score for Justice League. I know that talkback on the internet in general should be read with the right amount of sense, reason and caution, but in this case I feel the overwhelming negative reactions do indicate something: the times have clearly changed.

 

 

“It might work in the film but didn't really enjoy it, although there are definitely some great parts.  It might take having seen the film to enjoy it more.  Elfman seems to be more of a classical movie score kind of guy while Zimmer has a more modern and experimental sound of his soundtracks, at least the ones I've listened to.”

 

“Holy shit. How can you take an epic Wonder Woman theme that was perfect......and fuck it up. Its like Wonder Woman on ice........FUCK”

 

“There is no Hans Superman's Theme in that soundtrack?!? WTF! This is to much melodic! We want percussions like Zimmer And XL did! That's becauce of Joss Wedon all of that shit! Snyder was going to keep Zimmer and XL... Im very sad! Even the Wonder Wonder Theme is not very good as it was in the previous movie! Im a fan of superman and he's new theme (Zimmer) is not in the soundtrack! WTF!”

 

“Christmas sounds.”

 

“This senile old narcissist ruined everything, this is the worst soundtrack in WB. He is using parts of avengers theme, hulk theme, spider-man theme and those old and obselete 70s and 80s themes and they dont belong here, and he is totally ignoring already established themes specially far superior MoS Superman theme. Instead of finishing trilogy on high note this fucking idiot 'composed' soundtrack like we are still in the 80s. Fuck you elfman and fuck whoever brought you to do this.”

 

“WTF IS THIS!? Im sorry but burn this soundtrack. Looks like Danny just ruined JL I haven't heard a good track yet. Theres no feel 😥”

 

“Warner execs, Disney shills, Joss Whedon, Geoff Johns and Danny Elfman ruined a great franchise. Bravo. You killed the JL.”

 

“Give us back Zimmer and JunkieXL, Fuck Elfman”

 

 

Now this is just a grab out of the plethora of reactions given by people that are indicative of the same notion: the symphonic film score -at least for this kind of film- is becoming a thing of the past.

 

The lukewarm reception to Elfman’s score doesn’t limit itself to the filmgoing public that turns these franchise installments into multi-million dollar hits (or flops), but is also expressed by esteemed critics.

 

 

“Meanwhile, gurgling away in the background is Danny Elfman’s score, which grabs at John Williams’s 1978 Superman theme, Elfman’s own Batman motif from the Tim Burton years, and Hans Zimmer and Junkie XL’s Wonder Woman cello riff, in a panicky fumble for something, anything, the audience might recognise or like. The result, as if it even needs to be said, is an incoherent din, and a total mismatch for Snyder’s images.”

 

 

It seems that the time when big blockbuster spectaculars were dominated by a symphonic sound is over. The modernistic approach of Zimmer has become the popular norm. 

 

And undoubtly the soundtrack of The Last Jedi will be a letdown since the music from the trailers won’t be on it.

 

A traditional film score is considered old-fashioned, too melodic and –the most striking description perhaps- ‘Christmas sounds’.

 

Oh boy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Sandor said:

It seems that the time when big blockbuster spectaculars were dominated by a symphonic sound is over. The modernistic approach of Zimmer has become the popular norm. 

 

You didnt realize this has been the case for about a decade or so?

[Sandor 797]

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

You didnt realize this has been the case for about a decade or so?

 

Yes, but only until this week I wasn't aware the average Joe could identify and put into words the difference between an RCP-score and a more traditional score. Never read anything negative when Silvestri scored The Avengers for example. Thought people just wouldn't be able to point out the stylistic differences. In that sense Justice League was a turnover moment for me as it is the first time I've seen an 'old school-score' take a beating for being exactly that: old school, which people nowadays label as 'Christmas sounds'.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Your old road is rapidly fading.  Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand.

[publicist 4,643]

5 minutes ago, Sandor said:

 

Yes, but only until this week I wasn't aware the average Joe could identify and put into words the difference between an RCP-score and a more traditional score. Never read anything negative when Silvestri scored The Avengers for example. Thought people just wouldn't be able to point out the stylistic differences. In that sense Justice League was a turnover moment for me as it is the first time I've seen an 'old school-score' take a beating for being exactly that: old school, which people nowadays label as 'Christmas sounds'.

 

Since the Elfman score is a low point anyway it doesn't matter. On the other hand, with all those Live Concerts it's hard to argue that symphonic film music has not had a renaissance in recent years. People seem to enjoy that. And honestly, who takes avid watchers of Marvel and DC stuff serious on these matters?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think it's mostly because the score is such a departure from the RCP sound of the previous Zach Snyder DC films and Wonder Woman though.

 

[publicist 4,643]

Is it, though? I found it as muddy and uniform.

[Sandor 797]

16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I think it's mostly because the score is such a departure from the RCP sound of the previous Zach Snyder DC films and Wonder Woman though.

 

 

That plays a part for sure, but it dawned on me that TFA was also met with disappointment since the modernistic rearrangements of Williams' themes from the trailers weren't part of the score and that score wasn't a departure from Star Wars lore.

 

Now again I'm talking about a large part of the film going crowd, not everyone. I know we were highly pleased by TFA and wouldn't want that trailer crap on the album or in the movie, but I'm talking millions vs. thousands here.

 

For millions, the trailers had an 'epicness' that traditional scoring can't achieve.

 

Cutthroat Island used to be 'epic'; now it's Junkie XL.

[publicist 4,643]

You honestly think a few 16 year olds on Youtube will launch million-men marches on Disney to make Star Wars sound like Wonder Woman? Come on...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's possible. Studios follow trends religiously.

[Sandor 797]

1 minute ago, publicist said:

You honestly think a few 16 year olds on Youtube will launch million-men marches on Disney to make Star Wars sound like Wonder Woman? Come on...

 

Not yet, but I can see it happening to a certain extent yes.

 

That wasn't really the point of my post though...

[publicist 4,643]

What was the point, then? There is no widespread interest in film scores, never have been, never will. I'm talking about relevant sizes not perceived slights on some websites or communities that are mostly populated by nerds that just have a bigger audience nowadays. 

 

I wasn't that much of a fan of TFA but i readily admit that everyone i know (age range between 14 and 50) who saw it was perfectly content with the score in context.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not sure your point is valid though. For every 10  "Rey's Theme sucks" comment on YouTube there was also a video of a person doing a rendition of a new theme from TFA on piano, guitar, etc etc. A few weeks after TFA came out there was a lot of that going an actually.

[publicist 4,643]

Exactly. And i heard enough bad comments about Zimmer and his sledgehammer tactics by average people, too.

[Obi 404]

19 minutes ago, publicist said:

You honestly think a few 16 year olds on Youtube will launch million-men marches on Disney to make Star Wars sound like Wonder Woman? Come on...

 

I don't think so. But John Powell is scoring the Solo movie. Well, Powell is the best composer in the RCP... but he sound a little like them...

I really hope he will not use synthesizers. It's must be 100 % symphonic.

 

Powell on Star Wars is maybe the beginning of that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Powell has long since moved away from the Media Ventures (not RCP) sound of the early part of his career.

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

I'm guessing none of these guys are big Home Alone fans.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[publicist 4,643]

35 minutes ago, Obi said:

I don't think so. But John Powell is scoring the Solo movie. Well, Powell is the best composer in the RCP... but he sound a little like them...

I really hope he will not use synthesizers. It's must be 100 % symphonic.

 

Like AOTC with electric guitars and eastern percussion. 

[rough cut 1,714]

@Sandor Thank you for an interesting post.

 

To me, it seemed well researched and thought through. I’ve had similar discussions with my friends. The trend - in terms of symphonic sound and consistent leitmotifs - is not in our favor.

 

I must point out that I haven’t heard the score for TJL but was glad to hear of the return of JW’s Superman theme and Elfnan’s Batman theme.

 

Good riddance to Zimmer’s awful Superman theme!

 

Personally, I don’t like the Wonder Woman theme, but maybe it’s more the performance I don’t like (what’s the reason in having an electronic guitar be the voice of an ancient goddess). I’m looking forward to Elfman’s version on cello. Good or bad, at least it’s consistent.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

42 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Like AOTC with electric guitars and eastern percussion. 

 

The Prequel scores all have quite an exotic edge to them, really.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

If Danny Elfman had written a good score, this wouldn’t be a problem. It’s irreedeemable crap, he shat over his own theme, John’s theme, and even the Wonder Woman theme. 

 

By comparison, the popular reaction to TFA was hugely positive. It’s one of the best selling film scores in the last few years. 

 

This forum has to get it through its head that just because you have an orchestra and more notes on the page than average doesn’t mean your music is good. 

[Sandor 797]

10 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

If Danny Elfman had written a good score, this wouldn’t be a problem. It’s irreedeemable crap, he shat over his own theme, John’s theme, and even the Wonder Woman theme. 

 

By comparison, the popular reaction to TFA was hugely positive. It’s one of the best selling film scores in the last few years. 

 

This forum has to get it through its head that just because you have an orchestra and more notes on the page than average doesn’t mean your music is good. 

 

I agree with your last statement (who could think or reason otherwise?), but I think it's not about whether Elfman's score is good or bad, but more that its 'old school'. The negative reactions from within the film music community are based on a lack of coherence, etc.; the lukewarm reception from general filmgoers however seems to be much more based on the overall sound a traditional symphonic score produces. I do take into account that the DC films were mainly dominated by RPC stylistics these past years and that this change may have been a tad too much. TFA didn't have that problem. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

You shouldn't concern yourself with what some random people on Youtube think.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Justice League's main problem is it doesn't resemble the previous DC films at all. Its far closer to what Marvel and Fox do. Its a complete reversal to their no jokes policy of just a few years ago.

[publicist 4,643]

7 minutes ago, Sandor said:

the lukewarm reception from general filmgoers however seems to be much more based on the overall sound a traditional symphonic score produces. I do take into account that the DC films were mainly dominated by RPC stylistics these past years and that this change may have been a tad too much. 

 

What exactly do you want to say (i ask again)? Orchestral score like you mention are uncool since we got 'The Rock' in 1995 (at least). 

 

 

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Since I haven't seen Justice League yet, do the Elfman Batman theme and the Williams Superman theme fit in the film? Do they feel appropriate? Are they realistic and relatable in this film?

[Sandor 797]

7 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

What exactly do you want to say (i ask again)? Orchestral score like you mention are uncool since we got 'The Rock' in 1995 (at least). 

 

 

 

 

 

I see The Rock as a game changer as well.

[publicist 4,643]

16 minutes ago, Baby Jane Hudson said:

Since I haven't seen Justice League yet, do the Elfman Batman theme and the Williams Superman theme fit in the film? Do they feel appropriate? Are they realistic and relatable in this film?

 

You probably can't even hear them through all the noise.

[Arpy 4,145]

Whether or not anyone on this forum believes the RCP sound will be the death of symphonic, leitmotif-driven scores is irrelevant. It's sad, yes, but ask someone who grew up with Star Wars, or E.T. or Superman, any schlub on the street and all they can remember of those brilliant scores is a part of the main theme. Symphonic scores, film scores have always been background noise to casual audiences, a gimmick. There's no difference today. 

[publicist 4,643]

And it's probably for the best. If more people would care we would have a real filmmusic Brexit on our hands. As it is, popular rollercoaster entertainment for 14-year olds gets shitty scores, so what's new? 

[bollemanneke 3,342]

A few thoughts after reading your first post:

1. Is it fair to blame only Zimmer for this? He absolutely cranked out a few horrible scores, but it's not his fault that someone somewhere seems to think we want that crap in every single movie and TV programme.

3. I haven't heard a note of Justice League, but don't need to either. I know I'll hate it. Elfman is obsessed with bass clarinets and bass trombones, most of his music doesn't connect with me in any way and he seems to score everything in 'hahahaha!' mode. And he's arrogant.

4. Isn't it a bit of a leap to say that Williams is blamed for 'Christmas sounds' just because they don't like Elfman? Elfman couldn't write a like Williams if his life dependedn on it.

5. As for old themes, you have to admit it's an incredibly stupid choice. Why change them now? Why not stick with the Zimmer themes? Both films and scores sucked and some people apparently loved them, so why change now?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shut up man!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I watched a review for Transcendence the other day that dedicated a large section to "fixing" the "geriatric" score by adding in Trent Reznor generic Zimmer pounding instead.  And this wasn't even one of the "everyday Joe" reviewers, it was one of the intellectual "film school educated ones". Nowhere is safe anymore!

[Sandor 797]

1. I don't blame Zimmer. I think music -including film music- can and should be as diverse as possible, with Zimmer just doing something different than -let's say- Williams or Goldsmith. That's perfectly fine. When I said he 'hijacked' epicness, I don't mean he did this deliberately or something like that. It's just a hyperbole.

2. (Where's 2?)

3. Yes, yes.

4. 'Christmass sounds' refers to orchestral music in general. It's a common association from millennials.

5. Yes.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Sigh. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I think of threads like this as "TGP-bait"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I swear Sandor used to be a defender of Zimmer!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

It's simple:

There are many people loving film music and symphonic music particularly hating Hans Zimmer that have at least several good reasons for that.

But there are really not that much people loving modern non-orchestral film music particularly hating Jerry Goldsmith that have at least several good reasons for that.

What I want to say is that different types of quality are often quite clearly indicated by different divisions: Either everyone likes it a bit or some love it and some hate it or whatever... But mostly quality is done justice by at least a few people.

 

Moreover the best indication of quality is... longevity. With that being said let's wait and see what's gonna happen with Junkie XL's music and what's gonna happen with John Williams' music.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

I think of threads like this as "TGP-bait"

 

I don't object to anything in Sandor's post, at least not particularly, but if someone is noticing this trend in taste for the first time today, I lament how long it will probably be before this "the times they are achangin" line of discussion dies out.  

 

If what you appreciate is good music, there is plenty of it around, in films and otherwise. It may challenge your tastes, but it's worth a shot.  But if what you appreciate is a thin stylistic slice of the history of film music, well, I don't know what to tell you.  Even in its heyday, it was hardly every score that got such a treatment. 

 

I've mentored - a term I use quite loosely - a few novice composers.  They have all been incredibly talented and driven, more than I am in either case.  Good music isn't going anywhere.  New composition methods, computers, samples, sheer numbers of aspirants - far more now than when I was starting - none of this will stop the good stuff from rising to the top.  

 

Whatever level of "refinement" you listen with, there's no doomsday scenario in film music or art music.  It isn't going anywhere, it isn't shit.  It's just different, and we're getting older. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What young new composers are on the level of Williams or Goldsmith? Don't talk nonsense.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

What young new composers are on the level of Williams or Goldsmith? Don't talk nonsense.

John Powell is getting up there for me

[rough cut 1,714]

Imagine the outcry if they’d had abandon the James Bond theme for the new 007 film. Isn’t Superman as much of an icon? Why didn’t they treat it as such when Man Of Steel came out?

 

Bad reviews on Elfman’s score will send a signal to the studios that symphonic scores and a Wagner-ian approach to scoring movies do not deliver profit.

 

Sadly, I think this is the last time we are able to hear JW’s heroic fanfare for a new (Superman-) movie in a long time.

 

Yes yes - the times they are a-changing but I will always speak up against bad judgment and I hope thematic, symphonic scores will find an audience again way beyond the JWfan forum.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

What young new composers are on the level of Williams or Goldsmith? Don't talk nonsense.

 

Didn't say anything to that effect.  Composers at that level are rare at any time, in any niche, and often come at the end of an era as a culmination - including those two, who showed up on the scene as the capstones of decades of a certain style.  You won't hear from the generation I have in mind for a while, anyway, unless we get another Horner case of a twenty something breaking in out of nowhere.  Even youngER greats like Wintroy and Powell aren't exactly the young ones anymore.

[mrbellamy 6,278]

6 hours ago, Sandor said:

 

That plays a part for sure, but it dawned on me that TFA was also met with disappointment since the modernistic rearrangements of Williams' themes from the trailers weren't part of the score and that score wasn't a departure from Star Wars lore.

 

Now again I'm talking about a large part of the film going crowd, not everyone. I know we were highly pleased by TFA and wouldn't want that trailer crap on the album or in the movie, but I'm talking millions vs. thousands here.

 

For millions, the trailers had an 'epicness' that traditional scoring can't achieve.

 

Cutthroat Island used to be 'epic'; now it's Junkie XL.

 

Regarding TFA, I think the bigger issue is that people just wanted something with a darker and more sweeping gravitas. I saw many more people comparing it to the the prequel scores, which along with loving the trailer music tells me that generally people want a big, heavy sound from Star Wars....pretty normal. For all intents and purposes, the trailer music gave people that, or it at least was indicative that the film would have something along those lines, but even better because it's John Williams! 

 

And I mean, the reaction to the score here was essentially the same, actually. A lot of us were taken aback by music that sounded a little more whimsical, a little more mellow in its emotional expression, a little more spare in its darker material with really no elaborate villainous showboating. Obviously it's still an extroverted score but it doesn't have those same kinds of lengthy highlights, really. Even Rey's Theme, though very good and well-received, packs a different sort of punch than say Across the Stars with its grandiose rubati, the ominous bridge section, generally has that more "thunderous" sound that really defined the prequels and that young people really came to associate with Star Wars. 

 

And honestly, I think people might have been more into TFA's sound if they simply dug the new tunes, but they just didn't seem to hook people in quite the same way. Not like the audience was humming along with the Follow Me/Falcon motif for those 7 continuous minutes. Same with Justice League, if the score was catchy as all hell or had some great grooves, you wouldn't see that many people complaining. I think most people just want simple tunes and cool beats out of their blockbuster music, and that's the main thing Zimmer and RCP have over a lot of the recent orchestral scores coming out. It has more in common lately with what people like out of a good pop/rock album, and what's surprising or even wrong about that? I feel like that's actually completely the appeal of John Williams and Danny Elfman's most well-known stuff too, as well as the enduring popularity of Ride of the Valkyries, O Fortuna etc. 

[Tom 4,651]

I don't get the terms "experimental" and "original" as applied to Zimmer and co.  Perhaps they were that 10-15 years ago, but now they are anything but. 

[Sandor 797]

41 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

 

Regarding TFA, I think the bigger issue is that people just wanted something with a darker and more sweeping gravitas. I saw many more people comparing it to the the prequel scores, which along with loving the trailer music tells me that generally people want a big, heavy sound from Star Wars....pretty normal. For all intents and purposes, the trailer music gave people that, or it at least was indicative that the film would have something along those lines, but even better because it's John Williams! 

 

And I mean, the reaction to the score here was essentially the same, actually. A lot of us were taken aback by music that sounded a little more whimsical, a little more mellow in its emotional expression, a little more spare in its darker material with really no elaborate villainous showboating. Obviously it's still an extroverted score but it doesn't have those same kinds of lengthy highlights, really. Even Rey's Theme, though very good and well-received, packs a different sort of punch than say Across the Stars with its grandiose rubati, the ominous bridge section, generally has that more "thunderous" sound that really defined the prequels and that young people really came to associate with Star Wars. 

 

And honestly, I think people might have been more into TFA's sound if they simply dug the new tunes, but they just didn't seem to hook people in quite the same way. Not like the audience was humming along with the Follow Me/Falcon motif for those 7 continuous minutes. Same with Justice League, if the score was catchy as all hell or had some great grooves, you wouldn't see that many people complaining. I think most people just want simple tunes and cool beats out of their blockbuster music, and that's the main thing Zimmer and RCP have over a lot of the recent orchestral scores coming out. It has more in common lately with what people like out of a good pop/rock album, and what's surprising or even wrong about that? I feel like that's actually completely the appeal of John Williams and Danny Elfman's most well-known stuff too, as well as the enduring popularity of Ride of the Valkyries, O Fortuna etc. 

 

I agree with most -if not all- you wrote.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I don't get the terms "experimental" and "original" as applied to Zimmer and co.  Perhaps they were that 10-15 years ago, but now they are anything but. 

 

I implore you to listen more closely.

[Will 2,215]

I agree with Sandor that it's been rather shocking to see the almost entirely (and vehemently) negative reaction to this score. It's much worse than the TFA reaction, which was mostly neutral to very positive. I guess that is probably due in large part, as others have noted, to SW traditionally having an orchestral sound (even as recently as the prequels) whereas recent DC films have been much more electronic. 

 

I actually really enjoyed Elfman's effort here. I haven't listened to most of his past work, so I'm not bothered by suggestions that it's worse than his past work or derivative. I can't say I like it more than Zimmer's sound -- I absolutely adore Man of Steel -- but I certainly think this is, at the very least, up there with Zimmer's efforts. 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

5 hours ago, Will said:

I agree with Sandor that it's been rather shocking to see the almost entirely (and vehemently) negative reaction to this score. It's much worse than the TFA reaction, which was mostly neutral to very positive. I guess that is probably due in large part, as others have noted, to SW traditionally having an orchestral sound (even as recently as the prequels) whereas recent DC films have been much more electronic. 

 

I actually really enjoyed Elfman's effort here. I haven't listened to most of his past work, so I'm not bothered by suggestions that it's worse than his past work or derivative. I can't say I like it more than Zimmer's sound -- I absolutely adore Man of Steel -- but I certainly think this is, at the very least, up there with Zimmer's efforts. 

 

 

Please tell me you've at least listened to Edward Scissorhands.  One of the most soulful and beautiful scores of the past 30 years.