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The day Hans Zimmer turned John Williams into ‘Christmas sounds’…


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9 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Please tell me you've at least listened to Edward Scissorhands.  One of the most soulful and beautiful scores of the past 30 years.

 

I've heard a bit of it, but I've been meaning to listen to the whole thing for a while now. 

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It may a bit obvious to those already in the know, a bit like recommending the Star Wars soundtrack to someone just getting to know Williams, but it's the essential starting place for Elfman I think.

 

"Grand Finale" is one of the first score cues I can remember falling in love with as a kid.

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A sign of civiilsation in decline.  I actually liked the use of the various motifs in the film -especially when Superman's fanfare is first heard it doesn't end in the traditional sense but is distorted at the tail end. Matches what  is happening on screen really well. The rest of the score is a bit blah, but I thought it simpatico to the RP-C approach.

 

Zimmer's Superman theme sounded like the chorus of Neil Diamond's Shilo slowed down a lot. His BvS score sounded childish and drony to me and put me to sleep. And I don't get how sustained chords over a chugging drone bass is supposed to convey all these emotions. The RP-C scores sound like lazy sound design to me, with the occasional reliance on cheap gimmicks.

 

There is a time and place for everything, and the fact this type of scoring is still being used clearly shows there's a market for it. But I think those decrying Elfman's approach don't appreciate how good they have things.

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Now that I've had time to ponder over things, I've come to the following conclusion.

 

The critic from the more general audience is focussed firstly on Elfman's disregard for the established DC themes and overall soundscape, the work of Zimmer/RPC. The music was part of the experience for people and they miss the themes and feel of the previous scores.

 

If any composer had disbanded the thematic material like that, and that includes RPC composers, the critic would probably be the same.

 

With Elfman however, people take it up a notch and link Elfman's more traditional sound and style of writing to the lack of use of thematic material from MoS, BvS, WW, etc.

 

Suddenly, Elfman gets slammed for being 'more of a classical composer', 'too melodic', 'old fashioned', 'a thing from the 80's', 'producing Christmas sounds', etc. 

 

And this is not coming from nerds like us who sit behind a computer all day. Nerds in general know a thing or two about film music and wouldn't refer to it as 'Christmas sounds'. That's what (more) 'normal' people do and -yes, yes- they post on social media, YouTube, etc. a lot. The internet hasn't been the sole home to nerdy folks like us for a long time...

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16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I don't consider people who post Youtube comments as being normal.

 

Yeah, what's normal anyway?

 

Notice that everyone wants to be as normal as possible, but the moment you compliment them about it, they get offended: "Wow, you are so normal", doesn't do well.

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7 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Again, I'm not sure what's the big issue here.

 

That "normal" people" would have preferred a big phat loud score a la Junkie XL over the average orchestral score they got from Elfman?

 

The fact that they describe this average orchestral score as "old fashioned", "a thing from the 80s"...?

 

I don't see where's the problem here, and frankly, I can even understand where they're coming from: Junkie XL/Zimmer's scores are noticeable. You may not like them, you may think they're awful, etc. But it's undeniable: they're noticeable, they hit you over the head again, and again and again... Whereas Elfman's score can barely be heard in the film, nor does it offer truly standout moments (the "big Batman moment" that he oversold in interviews is so buried under the SFX that it ends up being hilariously anticlimactic. And the Superman theme has been filtered through the "modern film music" sound that it ends up not making much of an impact anyway). It's not a score that demands respect. Had it been a truly great score, I doubt we would have had that many people wishing JunkieXL had returned. And if there had been, maybe, just maybe, it would have been worth discussing that. But here, I don't see why an average orchestral score being trashed by Youtubers is such a big issue.

 

It's not a problem, nor a 'big issue'.

 

It's just an observation, something to discuss, something lightweight for an internet messageboard.

 

Why are only 'problems' and 'big issues' valid topics? Since when has this become a girls-forum?

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5 minutes ago, publicist said:

You phrased it like it was a big concern (to you). Continuously so.

 

No I didn't, but that's what you want to make of it. ;)

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6 minutes ago, publicist said:

The amount of text alone is a dead giveaway. No one would write that much about a topic that he doesn't feel invested in somehow. 

 

You got me Sherlock.

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16 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

Regarding TFA, I think the bigger issue is that people just wanted something with a[...]more sweeping gravitas.[...]generally people want a big, heavy sound from Star Wars[...]Even Rey's Theme, though very good and well-received, packs a different sort of punch than say Across the Stars with its grandiose rubati[...]and generally has that more "thunderous" sound.

 

Exactly. Its not so much a matter of darkness to the music, though. It just needed a "bigger" sound, and it needed to be mixed louder, especially against some of the quieter moments of the film, so that there were at least one or two moments where the audience (and not just an audience that is preconditioned to notice the music such as ourselves) couldn't help but notice the music. The Force Awakens is way too gentle for a Star Wars score.

 

16 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

I think most people just want simple tunes and cool beats out of their blockbuster music, and that's the main thing Zimmer and RCP have[...]and what's surprising or even wrong about that? I feel like that's actually completely the appeal of John Williams and Danny Elfman's most well-known stuff too, as well as the enduring popularity of Ride of the Valkyries, O Fortuna etc. 

 

Indeed! You need one or two catchy and - I can't stress this enough - L O U D (!!) themes for the wider audience to hang their hats onto in the film, and only if/once you have that going, you can be gentle and lyrical or cerebral and complex, or what have you. In other terms, the score needs to be accessible.

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That the score has to be loud seems to be on the studio’s agenda when they release a movie nowadays.

 

I’ve not seen the movie, but according to the site Movie Music UK, Blade Runner 2049 suffers from a bad case of loudness. The reviewer really rips the decisions regarding its sound design apart, calling it obnoxious, overwhelming and loud without reason (a disconnect between what’s happening on the screen and what’s happening in the soundtrack).

 

Incidentally, Blade Runner 2049, is Zimmer too.

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I thought this soundtrack sounded terrific and am so glad Elfman kept to his instincts and didn't do that RCP thing (just as much as I would have cringed to have heard Zimmer use '78 Superman in MOS).  At least Zimmer was doing his thing.  There seems to be edits from other films like Guardians of the Galaxy since the sound shifts quite a bit when that quote comes in during The Final Battle.  Overall, great to hear this fun and bombastic use of some old and new material so vibrantly pulled off.  I guess part of what is bugging people is Elfman's personal stamp is so prominent which I don't mind at all.  When Schumaker hired Elliot Goldenthal to score Batman Forever, he asked Goldenthal to incorporate some stylistic elements of Elfman's batman music to which Goldenthal rightfully told him, "if you want Elfman, get Elfman".  So similarly, that might be what Elfman was doing here.  It's a fun and exciting listen.  One must first be true to themselves.  Elfman was.

 

...and by the way, shouldn't this be in the General thread?

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23 hours ago, rough cut said:

Imagine the outcry if they’d had abandon the James Bond theme for the new 007 film. Isn’t Superman as much of an icon? Why didn’t they treat it as such when Man Of Steel came out?

 

All new versions of James Bond movies play with the orchestration of the main theme to some extent. What's your point here?

 

And further, Man of Steel (Like Batman Begins) is not a continuation of the Christopher Reeves Superman franchise - unlike Superman Returns was. Why not create a new Superman theme?

 

Hilariously, the use of both the old Batman 1989 and Superman 1978 themes are a direct result of DC making BAD superhero movies and trying to win back movie goers in an ever lasting failed attempt to compete with what Marvel built up properly over numerous films through multiple years. DC wanted Batman V Superman to be what The Avengers was and crammed so much garbage and bloat into it just to say "Haha, we did it!" only to fall flat on their face. Suicide Squad was a disaster. Wonder Woman was average but that's because it had little to do with Zack Snyder and Gal Godot was the only real good thing about BVS (even if horribly jammed into it). Justice League making less than $100 million on opening weekend, regardless of what old themes are recycled in the score, is a clear indication that Warner Bros. DC movie people don't know what they are doing. Meanwhile Thor: Ragnarock is delighting audiences and making money. Thor 3. When Thor 1 was a small film that got some mixed reviews. Marvel took their time to build their universe and work out kinks. DC just wants Avengers type returns from movie 2 and continue to make, at best, average films. So now going back in time to re-use themes that are iconic and classic just for the sake of drawing people into their mess makes them look even more desperate.

 

For the record, I like the Hans Zimmer Man of Steel theme. I like his work on the Nolan Batman films even if they are grossly overrated in and of themselves. I like quite a bit of Hans Zimmer's work and Danny Elfman to, for that matter. Each have their place in the world of film music. It is quite possible to like BOTH Elvis and The Beatles, afteral. I just continue to laugh at DC for screwing up their superhero universe so badly while I eagerly anticipate Black Panther (who???) next year!

 

 

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Its another case of not being able to separate the quality of the score from the quality of the film.

 

All the Sneider DC entries suffer from the looming shadow of Nolan's work, which were very serious action-dramas. All of Sneiders efforts are to inject the DCEU films with the same kind of tone, but not quite as serious, so they're placed in this wierd limbo where it isn't fun (in the way that the Marvel films are) but also doesn't have gravitas, in the way that the Nolan entries do.

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On 20/11/2017 at 12:11 PM, BloodBoal said:

 

Indeed. There's no reason to bemoan the fact Elfman's score isn't particularly well-received. It's nothing to write home about.

I liked some segments from it. Enough perhaps to buy a CD album. But it's still a massive letdown overall, both in the film and away from it. And you know how much I like my Elfman.

 

On 20/11/2017 at 2:17 PM, Stefancos said:

Justice League's main problem is it doesn't resemble the previous DC films at all. Its far closer to what Marvel and Fox do. Its a complete reversal to their no jokes policy of just a few years ago.

Yeah, they pretty much asked for this. Snyder films, regardless of quality, have many fans.

 

On 20/11/2017 at 2:37 PM, publicist said:

You probably can't even hear them through all the noise.

The only real reason I went to see this film is to hear it in context and see if there's anything unreleased material. But no, couldn't make sense out of it. You just can't hear the damn thing. At all.

 

Karol

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1 minute ago, crocodile said:

Yeah, it does appear three times in two cues. But these are small cameos of the fanfare bit only, not the full theme.

 

Karol

 

Which tracks exactly?

It's for this page of my website: http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/music/composer/themes.htm

 

Thanks!

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1 minute ago, Bespin said:

 

Which tracks exactly?

It's for this page of my website: http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/music/composer/themes.htm

 

Thanks!

I posted about this yesterday actually in this thread.

 

Karol

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3 hours ago, FC4L said:

 

All new versions of James Bond movies play with the orchestration of the main theme to some extent. What's your point here?

 

 

What's the point? The point was to strengthen the arguments regarding themes carried across decades and movies. In the case of comparing 007 with Superman, we're not talking about "playing with the orchestration". The 007-theme is still in all the movies. The Superman-fanfare died with a Singer's failed attempt to bring back Supes after fans bemoaned the lack of action.

 

My point was that a lack of musical, thematic consistency is bad - something that Marvel movies has taken a lot of flack for as well. My point is relative to the music, not about the movies in general (Are they good? Are they bad? And Why? There's so much that goes in to that particular bag, but let's focus on the music).

 

Yes, you can like both the old Superman theme as well as the new one, no-one is taking that away from you or anyone else. We all like different things, but I call bullshit on people saying that the Superman-fanfare sounds outdated. In that case, the 007-theme would be long gone as well. But, as you point out, it's still round albeit with different orchestration. If anything, it was a bad decision to remove it in the first place and I salute WB and Elfman for bringing it back.

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It isn't a problem of outdated sound, which is why the 007 theme is still applicable.  These older superhero themes simply have nothing to do with these incarnations of the characters, they are tonally incorrect.  To use them, whilst scrapping their new, appropriate ones, was simply an asinine decision.  There's no defense for it.

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2 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

It isn't a problem of outdated sound, which is why the 007 theme is still applicable.  These older superhero themes simply have nothing to do with these incarnations of the characters, they are tonally incorrect.  To use them, whilst scrapping their new, appropriate ones, was simply an asinine decision.  There's no defense for it.

 

Have you seen the film?  I haven't (and frankly have no intention to) so can't say if you are correct but how do you know they didn't adapt the tone in a similar way that Thor Raganar did with the Thor film series making this actually pitch perfect with these incarnations of the characters and are in fact tonally correct in characters, mood, and style? 

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3 hours ago, rough cut said:

 

What's the point? The point was to strengthen the arguments regarding themes carried across decades and movies. In the case of comparing 007 with Superman, we're not talking about "playing with the orchestration". The 007-theme is still in all the movies. The Superman-fanfare died with a Singer's failed attempt to bring back Supes after fans bemoaned the lack of action.

 

My point was that a lack of musical, thematic consistency is bad - something that Marvel movies has taken a lot of flack for as well. My point is relative to the music, not about the movies in general (Are they good? Are they bad? And Why? There's so much that goes in to that particular bag, but let's focus on the music).

 

Yes, you can like both the old Superman theme as well as the new one, no-one is taking that away from you or anyone else. We all like different things, but I call bullshit on people saying that the Superman-fanfare sounds outdated. In that case, the 007-theme would be long gone as well. But, as you point out, it's still round albeit with different orchestration. If anything, it was a bad decision to remove it in the first place and I salute WB and Elfman for bringing it back.

 

2 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

It isn't a problem of outdated sound, which is why the 007 theme is still applicable.  These older superhero themes simply have nothing to do with these incarnations of the characters, they are tonally incorrect.  To use them, whilst scrapping their new, appropriate ones, was simply an asinine decision.  There's no defense for it.

 

Yeah but the 007 theme hasn't been used since Moonraker as Barry wisely retired it there.

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36 minutes ago, Baby Jane Hudson said:

 

 

Yeah but the 007 theme hasn't been used since Moonraker as Barry wisely retired it there.

 

Heh heh.

 

And I dunno about "wisely."  I freakin' love that theme.

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1 hour ago, karelm said:

 

Have you seen the film?  I haven't (and frankly have no intention to) so can't say if you are correct but how do you know they didn't adapt the tone in a similar way that Thor Raganar did with the Thor film series making this actually pitch perfect with these incarnations of the characters and are in fact tonally correct in characters, mood, and style? 

 

I have indeed seen the film.  Even twisting the Superman material and dressing up the Batman stuff, using those older themes in this context, repeatedly and as centerpieces, rather than just as little momentary eye winks, was incredibly awkward to me.  It felt... desperate.  If Elfman had also maintained the established themes for these latest incarnations, it wouldn't have really been as noticeable a problem to have those references, however extensive.  It was the complete abandonment of that identity in favor of this bizarre throwback which I think was a very, very poor decision, whoever's it was.

 

I didn't think what Mothersbaugh did was thematically satisfying either, for the record.  A good romp of a score, but Doyle's great theme should have been its backbone rather than a cameo at the end.

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The Batman/Supes material doesn't seem like a choice Elfman would make to bring them back. I think he should have used the Zimmer material or write a new theme for those characters. Either way I think it was out of his control...

 

Whenever I hear the '89 theme or Williams' Superman Theme I relate those musical identities to those iterations of the characters. The themes resurrected for these new films have to leap over a heap of other musical identities and that's where it trips and stumbles. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Baby Jane Hudson said:

Yeah but the 007 theme hasn't been used since Moonraker as Barry wisely retired it there.

 

Well, it’s in the movies. Its use and purpose has changed from intro-theme music to action music, but it’s in there, serving as 007’s trusty companion.

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20 minutes ago, rough cut said:

 

Well, it’s in the movies. Its use and purpose has changed from intro-theme music to action music, but it’s in there, serving as 007’s trusty companion.

 

You’re thinking of “dum dee dee dum dum”, the 007 theme is “boo dat dat boo dat dat boo dat boo dat dat weeeeeeee bop.”

 

Anway, about these Christmas sounds...so it’s like Rosenman’s Star Trek?

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Yes that’s the one. :)

 

However, I realize my logic is a little flawed... otherwise we’d still be stuck with the 60’s Batman TV-show theme in all the movies, which would have been... unfortunate. :P

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I understand your frustrations, and I share them too sometimes, but declaring the death of melody and orchestra is exaggerating. Look at Williams in 1977. He made the grand orchestral sound relevant again, which means it was dying at that time. There has always been toxic periods of no melody and mindless trends, but melody and the orchestra always wins and will never die. 

 

Just recently we've got THE most melodic and thematically filled score in years with JNH's Fantastic Beasts. He literally wrote too many themes to fit in the film, so he had them as bonus tracks on the CD. Also Giacchino is a devoted theme and melody guy, and he is the most successful composer in Hollywood right now, who scores just about every major film franchise ever made.

 

We have other newer composers to, like Korzeniowski and Velazquez who are extremely traditional, to the point of sounding like they are trying to achieve a pure classical music sound. And those like McCreary who is a perfect mixture of the two sides of orchestral and synthetic. And is rooted traditionally in his sensibilities but has mastered the electronic angle. 

 

I think melody and orchestra are very much alive, and will always be amongst the ones who can and will use them as they should be.

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On 11/21/2017 at 2:48 PM, rough cut said:

 

What's the point? The point was to strengthen the arguments regarding themes carried across decades and movies. In the case of comparing 007 with Superman, we're not talking about "playing with the orchestration". The 007-theme is still in all the movies. The Superman-fanfare died with a Singer's failed attempt to bring back Supes after fans bemoaned the lack of action.

 

My point was that a lack of musical, thematic consistency is bad - something that Marvel movies has taken a lot of flack for as well. My point is relative to the music, not about the movies in general (Are they good? Are they bad? And Why? There's so much that goes in to that particular bag, but let's focus on the music).

 

Yes, you can like both the old Superman theme as well as the new one, no-one is taking that away from you or anyone else. We all like different things, but I call bullshit on people saying that the Superman-fanfare sounds outdated. In that case, the 007-theme would be long gone as well. But, as you point out, it's still round albeit with different orchestration. If anything, it was a bad decision to remove it in the first place and I salute WB and Elfman for bringing it back.

 

I would NEVER call the Williams Superman theme outdated. Ever. 

 

I would, however, argue that it does not fit in the Zack Snyder/Christopher Nolan DC Uni-mess. Further, that bring it "back" to replace the already established theme is yet another cheap and lame attempt by bad filmmakers to try and gloss over how bad their filmmaking truly is.

 

Zimmer's theme completely fits this universe though. The problem is it wasn't written in a way that can be adapted to different emotions. It will always be a plodding, drawn out, overly dramatic theme. You can't urn it into a cute ring-tone type moment or and love theme moment. That's the downside of doing everything gritty and dark with no ability of redemption. That is what Nolan and Snyder brought to DC.

 

Same goes with Elfman recycling his own theme.

 

It has nothing to do with the quality of the musical themes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which I agree are far from memorable. But thus far they've failed to hire the upper echelon of film composers to create amazing themes for them and even the pretty good composers they've had have been held within many restraints.

 

Throwing the old themes into the new JL movie is just DC trying to play to the sympathetic DC fanboys any way they can. At the end of the day their movies are still mostly junk and the scores forgettable.

 

First hearing the 1989 Batman them was recycled and now knowing the Williams Superman theme is associated with the drivel makes me even less interested in seeing this film than I was before. I didn't think I could care less (as the incorrect saying goes) but apparently I can!

 

If I want to hear Williams amazing Superman theme I have 5 movies to experience it in. 

 

Hell Williams didn't even feel the need to grossly recycle himself with TFA and came up with all new material, only re-using his previous work when it made sense - the original actors in the same universe are on screen, not new actors playing new versions in a completely rebooted universe.

 

Your argument about the Bond theme falls flat when I bring up Star Trek 2009 uses nothing of the original show, film or Next Generation themes until the homage in the end credits. And those scores play pretty well on their own.

 

Heck even Star Trek The Motion Picture completely abandoned the Star Trek them for something much different. 

 

In the end the musical consistency argument is also wrong as there are established themes within this universe that were removed in favor of older (some may say better) and more nostalgia heart string pulling themes. Just more bad decisions from the people war Warner Bros. behind the abysmal DC Extended Universe. DC just needs to give up and fire everyone. What a mess. 

On 11/23/2017 at 3:37 AM, leeallen01 said:

I understand your frustrations, and I share them too sometimes, but declaring the death of melody and orchestra is exaggerating. Look at Williams in 1977. He made the grand orchestral sound relevant again, which means it was dying at that time. There has always been toxic periods of no melody and mindless trends, but melody and the orchestra always wins and will never die. 

 

Just recently we've got THE most melodic and thematically filled score in years with JNH's Fantastic Beasts. He literally wrote too many themes to fit in the film, so he had them as bonus tracks on the CD. Also Giacchino is a devoted theme and melody guy, and he is the most successful composer in Hollywood right now, who scores just about every major film franchise ever made.

 

We have other newer composers to, like Korzeniowski and Velazquez who are extremely traditional, to the point of sounding like they are trying to achieve a pure classical music sound. And those like McCreary who is a perfect mixture of the two sides of orchestral and synthetic. And is rooted traditionally in his sensibilities but has mastered the electronic angle. 

 

I think melody and orchestra are very much alive, and will always be amongst the ones who can and will use them as they should be.

 

I regularly listen to the amazing themes written by Steve Jablonski for Transformers. A Zimmer pupil, no less. 

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I'm not a fan of the term Christmas music applied to Elfman or The Voyage Home score...but although I haven't seen the film yet, I have listened to the JL soundtrack and it really does seem like a disappointing job. I feel like this is indicative of the mess behind the scenes with shifting creative voices (i.e. Joss Whedon has worked with Elfman before, when he co-wrote the equally lacklustre Age of Ultron score). But it's insulting and incoherent to bring back these old themes in this way when these characters already have well established themes and when if there is one thing the DCEU had mastered over the MCU, it was having a coherent audio palette. I have a lot of critiques of the BvS, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman soundtracks but they worked to create a world that felt like the same world Zimmer started with Snyder in Man of Steel.

 

Just echoing others really, but I don't think there is any logical relationship between these iterations of Batman and Superman and the ones Elfman and Williams wrote for. And I don't think there is any sense in providing a more symphonic sound for Justice League when nothing until now in the DCEU has approached that and it just creates tonal inconsistency.

 

I suppose maybe the bigger problem though is that Elfman didn't even write a very good score (in my opinion obviously) for Justice League, so this fuels fans' ability to complain. If there were some amazing, strong, memorable themes in there that these youtube commenters could hang on to, they might struggle to moan about it but they are struggling to hang on to it emotionally or respond immediately to it, and I think that's a problem that goes beyond their taste for RCP soundtracks. 

 

(note: I love Elfman's older scores a lot!)

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