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James Horner's TITANIC (2017 4CD expanded edition from La-La Land Records)

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3 hours ago, ChrisAfonso said:

I have to say, I really enjoy the way 2 1/2 miles down sets the stage for some parts of the score that come later - first the ominous sequence of deep synth chords, then this new theme sung by the voice, and then, while a second vocal enters below and the key shifts, the synth sequence returns as the ostinato the theme is based on... Somehow this buildup is very satisfying to listen to. And of course now the orchestral reprise in Distant Memories leading into the upbeat Keldysh music (which was previously the only occurence of this theme on the ost) feels much more connected and works as a payoff after the development it got in track 2.

 

I love "To The Keldysh" for it being such a warm, inviting respite from the mystery and ominous atmosphere of "2 1/2 Miles Down". 

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

People in this thread are making a big to-do over nothing at all.

 

So Butterfly Comb appears before Rose instead of after Rose. Big deal!

 

 

 

But why? I don’t understand why this was necessary at all. 

 

I really this is a small thing in what is apparently an excellent release but I can’t think of a good reason why you would do something like this.

 

I’m just worried it’s becoming a trend. Like I said, just release it in chronological order and let people mess with the order themselves.

 

And don’t get me wrong, I’m glad the film mix wasn’t created. Horner’s intended score is what I want!

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4 hours ago, Jay said:

People in this thread are making a big to-do over nothing at all.

 

So Butterfly Comb appears before Rose instead of after Rose. Big deal!

 

And the main program contains the versions of cues Horner wanted to be heard. Cameron messed with all of his intentions in the final cut of the film. Recreating those edited hack jobs would make no sense.

 

There really isn't a wildly different way to release this score other than how they did it.

 

You've got a 2-disc main program of Horner's preferred version of every cue, then a third disc of every other version he recorded.  How can you complain?

Well in Cameron's defence, apparently Horner scored a cut that wasn't the final cut of the film. I actually really like how the music was used in the film but I also like the LLL edition so one can like both!

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Having finished a video project where I put the music against the film as originally intended, much of it was a major struggle to fit without having to do a lot of editing to the film to make it work. 

 

I made some discoveries along the way, some known, some new: 

 

-not only is '2 1/2 Miles Down' far longer than the sequence, but it would have to crossfade very heavily into 'To The Keldysh'

 

-'Take Her to Sea, Mr Murdoch' must have been for a slightly longer version of that sequence. 

 

-'Trapped on "D" Deck' was partially for a deleted scene available on the DVD and Blu-ray: Lovejoy stalking Jack and Rose in the sinking dining room with his gun. The fight between him and Jack is where the rumbling piano bit was meant to be. It also has two different musical approaches to the exact same scene:

 

-the big choral moment and subsequent music up to 6:24 in the cue (heard in the album suite version of 'A Building Panic') was meant for Jack and Rose being swept away by the massive burst of water (replaced by a piece of 'Hard to Starboard' in the film) and the rest of the music actually played over through the scene where they're trying to unlock the gate using the keys underwater. The ending of the LLL track (the tension building preview of the eventual 'Death of Titanic' music to follow later) was the much darker replacement music for that gate scene. 

 

-The Sinking must have been much longer since so little of it fits the film. At least the best moment of the cue was kept in the final film: when Fabrizio is crushed by the falling funnel. 

 

-An Ocean of Memories could partially play over the alternate ending, but must have been for yet another longer version of the film's finale. The cue's final two minutes or so fit the film's ending perfectly. 

 

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14 hours ago, Jay said:

So then to answer Mr B's question here:

 

 

The answer is the former - the LLL presents all this material in the order Horner intended it to be heard, and Cameron messed with it.

 

Thanks. Now I need to know if that track is made up of several cues that are supposed to be split.

 

1 hour ago, NL197 said:

Having finished a video project where I put the music against the film as originally intended, much of it was a major struggle to fit without having to do a lot of editing to the film to make it work. 

 

I made some discoveries along the way, some known, some new: 

 

-not only is '2 1/2 Miles Down' far longer than the sequence, but it would have to crossfade very heavily into 'To The Keldysh'

 

-'Take Her to Sea, Mr Murdoch' must have been for a slightly longer version of that sequence. 

 

-'Trapped on "D" Deck' was partially for a deleted scene available on the DVD and Blu-ray: Lovejoy stalking Jack and Rose in the sinking dining room with his gun. The fight between him and Jack is where the rumbling piano bit was meant to be. It also has two different musical approaches to the exact same scene:

 

-the big choral moment and subsequent music up to 6:24 in the cue (heard in the album suite version of 'A Building Panic') was meant for Jack and Rose being swept away by the massive burst of water (replaced by a piece of 'Hard to Starboard' in the film) and the rest of the music actually played over through the scene where they're trying to unlock the gate using the keys underwater. The ending of the LLL track (the tension building preview of the eventual 'Death of Titanic' music to follow later) was the much darker replacement music for that gate scene. 

 

-The Sinking must have been much longer since so little of it fits the film. At least the best moment of the cue was kept in the final film: when Fabrizio is crushed by the falling funnel. 

 

-An Ocean of Memories could partially play over the alternate ending, but must have been for yet another longer version of the film's finale. The cue's final two minutes or so fit the film's ending perfectly. 

 

 

I'm working on a similar project. I'm up to the crash now and am finding similar things. I also suspected part of Trapped on "D" Deck would be for the Jack/Lovejoy fight. Unfortunately, the deleted scene is tracked with music from Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave, so it will require some tinkering to get it mixed properly.

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I am just curious to see what was intended for the scene where the water bursts through the glass ceiling

Having seen the movie and music edits of 'the sinking (film version)'

that build-up dropoff at 4:13 just sounds weird

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jay said:

People in this thread are making a big to-do over nothing at all.

 

So Butterfly Comb appears before Rose instead of after Rose. Big deal!

 

And the main program contains the versions of cues Horner wanted to be heard. Cameron messed with all of his intentions in the final cut of the film. Recreating those edited hack jobs would make no sense.

 

There really isn't a wildly different way to release this score other than how they did it.

 

You've got a 2-disc main program of Horner's preferred version of every cue, then a third disc of every other version he recorded.  How can you complain?

Oh I'm not disappointed that they didn't re-create film versions. That's totally understandable. What I don't get is why you would move things like the alternate Rose and Portrait cues to the main program. I know Horner intended it this way, but the portrait scene is so iconic that it just makes sense to me to have that piano demo (flawed as it might be) in the main program. Same goes for Southampton.

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10 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Oh I'm not disappointed that they didn't re-create film versions. That's totally understandable. What I don't get is why you would move things like the alternate Rose and Portrait cues to the main program. I know Horner intended it this way, but the portrait scene is so iconic that it just makes sense to me to have that piano demo (flawed as it might be) in the main program. Same goes for Southampton.

I agree with all of that. The Portrait cue that is on disc 1 is the worst track on the whole edition and it's a shame that it's on disc 1.

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3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

What I don't get is why you would move things like the alternate Rose and Portrait cues to the main program. I know Horner intended it this way, but the portrait scene is so iconic that it just makes sense to me to have that piano demo (flawed as it might be) in the main program. Same goes for Southampton.

 

I don't think it makes any sense to include a 5 minute piano demo of a theme in the middle of a score program, just because Cameron tracked the first 2 minutes of it into the film.  Including what Horner actually composed and recorded for the scene in the main program makes 100% sense to me.

 

As for "Rose", I don't follow what you mean.  The exact same version of "Rose" from the 1997 OST album is in the main program, with an alternate being on the alternates disc.  Clearly, this is the version of Rose Horner liked best, so it belongs in the main program.  Cameron's re-editing and tracking don't factor into the main program of Horner's score.

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I could almost see re-recreating the film's edit of the first 2 minutes of the piano demo as "The Portrait (Film Version)" in the main program with Horner's intended cue as "The Portrait (Alternate)" in the bonus track section.  


BUT I could never, ever get behind including a 5 minute long piano demo that Horner never actually meant for anyone except Cameron to hear in the main program of the complete score.  That makes absolutely no sense.

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7 hours ago, MedigoScan said:

I am just curious to see what was intended for the scene where the water bursts through the glass ceiling

Having seen the movie and music edits of 'the sinking (film version)'

that build-up dropoff at 4:13 just sounds weird

 

 

 

 

The huge cacophonous piano crash/dissonance that ends the cue "The Sinking" (repeated in the "A Building Panic album suite") was meant for the water smashing the dome ceiling. 

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23 minutes ago, Jay said:

No.  That's another demo from 1997.  Nothing recorded in 1998 recorded for BTT is on this set.

 

I never said the BTT version was on this set?

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2 hours ago, Jay said:

BUT I could never, ever get behind including a 5 minute long piano demo that Horner never actually meant for anyone except Cameron to hear in the main program of the complete score.  That makes absolutely no sense.

 

Yet that's exactly what I chose to do with my custom arrangement. 

 

I've played my custom arrangement several times and love it. It's almost like the score is in movements: the mystery, then the majesty and fun, then the romance, then the iceberg, the panic, the chaos, finally the loss and reflection. 

 

The album version of Horner's piano solo (originally heard on Back to Titanic) is not a demo. It's just a proper recording of the piece. 

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9 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

I never said the BTT version was on this set?

 

No, but your said the piano track on BTT was something Horner commissioned for BTT.  It's not a 1998 recording.  It's another demo from 1997, just not the demo Cameron tracked into the film.

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In the Titanic commentary, Cameron says that he loved the piano cue Horner wrote but that the demo performance worked so well in the film that he didn't want to have a re-recorded version of it. For that particular scene, the demo performance works so well and I don't think a re-recording would have worked as well.

 

As for why LLL included all those OST versions on disc 1 and labeled film versions as "alternate", I get why they did it, but I would have preferred that they put the film version of southampton and the alt mix of Rose etc on disc 1 instead of the OST versions.

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Just now, NL197 said:

The album version of Horner's piano solo (originally heard on Back to Titanic) is not a demo. It's just a proper recording of the piece. 

 

That's not right.

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I am told the piano rendition of the love theme that ended up on Back To Titanic as "The Portrait" was another demo from 1997, and NOT something newly commissioned for BTT at all.

 

The booklet included with the set backs that up, as it shows only 1997 recording dates, no 1998 recording dates.

 

On top of that, it was the goal of the makers of this set to provide a complete release of everything Horner recorded in 1997 for the film, and not the stuff later conceived for BTT in 1998.

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I was never saying Horner recorded the 'proper' version of "The Portrait" for Back To Titanic. I'm only saying it's just a proper version of the same music and not a 'demo'. There's a demo, and there's the real thing. The album version is the real thing. That's all I was getting at. 

 

"A Building Panic (album suite)" was on Back To Titanic, but it's just two cues edited together from the original score. 

 

 

For the record, I love that piano demo. I love that it's not perfect, and as I said in my cue by cue article, it doesn't hit all the notes and is even improvised near the end. That's very endearing and honest. 

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Realizing just how Building panic fits with the movie scenes (and how it was transformed by inserts from Trapped On E-Deck/Rose's Suicide Attempt and even itself)

I dont even care that much for a film version of it, and I think I feel the same about pretty much all the other re-edits (besides maybe The Sinking)

 

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22 hours ago, Jay said:

 

BUT I could never, ever get behind including a 5 minute long piano demo that Horner never actually meant for anyone except Cameron to hear in the main program of the complete score.  That makes absolutely no sense.

 

What? It absolutely does if that demo is the cue that was used in the film.

 

But then my view on expansions is clear - present film versions in the main program, and include originally intended versions as bonuses. Otherwise it feels like the film versions are being included as a 'if you must hear that' gesture.

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My copy arrived today!

 

Sounds great. Weird hearing the film version of the main title after so many years. The alternates/film versions are fascinating and overall it's another perfect release from LLL for me

 

For what it's worth I'd always want to see the music come first on these releases and that means presenting what the composer intended and recorded. If that's the same or close to what we hear in the film, great. If not, it's an interesting discovery! In terms of sequencing, I really don't mind if the album producers moved a short cue out of chronological order as long as nothing is accidentally removed from the album completely. It's all there and we all have access to software that we can create playlists with :)

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Loving this set. It was well worth the wait. 

 

@Jay I'm still not convinced that "The Portrait" from Back to Titanic wasn't specifically recorded for that album. I know you've called it another demo but I really don't see anything to suggest that it was recorded at the time of the film sessions. 

 

Here: http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/the-words-of-james-horner-4-back-to-titanic/ Horner talks about Back to Titanic and he says of the cue: 

 

Quote

DtD) And what about The Portrait ?
JH) Again, it’s not the film version. I re-recorded the piano solo and made it quite a bit longer. I basically indulged myself. I hope you like it too.

 

I really do believe this was recorded after the fact for BTT. Which is what everyone has always believed of it anyway. 

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