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James Horner's TITANIC (2017 4CD expanded edition from La-La Land Records)

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Well aside from being a great album, it includes the song which was rather bafflingly left off the 20th anniversary version. While the other album tracks were on there at some point, it didn't feature the original album proper as has become commonplace with these "definitive" releases. It also didn't have all the tracks from Back to Titanic.

 

So, it's not a definitive release, but rather a third release. You need them all in my opinion.

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7 hours ago, Horner's Dynamic Range said:

Well aside from being a great album, it includes the song which was rather bafflingly left off the 20th anniversary version. While the other album tracks were on there at some point, it didn't feature the original album proper as has become commonplace with these "definitive" releases. It also didn't have all the tracks from Back to Titanic.

 

So, it's not a definitive release, but rather a third release. You need them all in my opinion.

 

A lot of those BTT tracks weren't part of the score to begin with, other than "A Building Panic (Album Suite)" and "The Portrait (Album Version)".  However, BTT has the film version of "Alexander's Ragtime Band", which I put into the source music section of my custom complete score.

 

Anyways, I included the song in the score presentation but crossfaded the ending into "Post"

 

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The song isn't on the LLL set because some people still don't understand license fees are a load of rubbish.

 

BTT does indeed have unique material, but I never understood why the film version of Alexander's Ragtime Band is so distorted.

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9 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

The song isn't on the LLL set because some people still don't understand license fees are a load of rubbish.

 

Explain?

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21 hours ago, Horner's Dynamic Range said:

While the other album tracks were on there at some point, it didn't feature the original album proper as has become commonplace with these "definitive" releases.

 

Intrada would like to have a word with you...

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I also used the film stem leak to make a cue list for Titanic on another thread, of corse the "cues" are actually multiple different cues edited together, looped, tracked.  But here's a cue list of Horner's intended cues (score only)

 

1M1 - Main Title

1M2 - 2 1/2 Miles Down / To The Keldysh

1M3 - Rose Revealed

1M4 - Distant Memories

 

2M1 - My Drawing

2M2 - Relics & Treasures

2M4 - Southampton (film version)

2M5 - Leaving Port (film version)

2M8 - Take Her To Sea, Mr. Murdoch

 

3M1 - First Sighting

3M3 - Rose's Suicide Attempt

3M4 - Jack Saves Rose

3M8 - The Promenade

 

5M2 - Rose

5M4 - Butterfly Comb

5M5 - The Portrait

5M8 - Lovejoy Chases Jack and Rose

5M9 - Lovemaking Pt. 1

5M10 - Lovemaking Pt. 2

 

6M1 - Hard to Starboard

 

7M3 - Rose Frees Jack

7M6 - A Building Panic

 

8M2 - Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave

8M3 - Trapped on 'D' Deck

8M4 - Murdoch's Suicide

 

9M1 - The Sinking

9M2 - Death of Titanic

 

10M1 - A Promise Kept

10M3 - A Life So Changed

10M4 - A Woman's Heart is an Ocean of Secrets

10M5 - An Ocean of Memories

10M6 - My Heart Will Go On / End Credits

 

 

 

 

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You do realize that the official cue sheet shows 20 reels of the film, right? That film stem leak thing could never be considered as accurately representing the titles (or reels), because for all anyone knows they were made up. 

I'd come up with this based on the official cue sheet: 

1M1 Main Title (from A Promise Kept)
1M2 2 1/2 Miles Down


2M1 To The Keldysh
2M2 Rose Revealed
2M4 Distant Memories


3M1 My Drawing
3M2 Relics and Treasures
3M4 Southampton
3M5 Leaving Port


4M3 Take Her To Sea, Mr Murdoch


5M1 First Sighting
5M3 Rose's Suicide
5M4 Jack Saves Rose


6M3 Promenade


9M2 Rose
9M4 Butterfly Comb
9M5 The Portrait


10M1 Lovejoy Chases Jack and Rose
10M2 Lovemaking


11M1 Hard To Starboard
11M2 Hard To Starboard (extension)


13M4 Rose Frees Jack


14M2 A Building Panic


15M2 Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave


16M1 Trapped on 'D' Deck


17M1 The Sinking


18M1 Death of Titanic


19M1 A Promise Kept
19M2R A Promise Kept (revised)


20M1 Never an Absolution (A Life so Changed)
20M2 A Woman's Heart is a Deep Ocean of Secrets
20M3 An Ocean of Memories
20M4 My Heart Will Go On
20M5 Post
 

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On 12/13/2017 at 2:24 PM, NL197 said:

It's not a cue though, since it was purely performed in the film by the cast. 

 

When I did my custom complete score, I created my own arrangement of "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" in GarageBand and then added it to the source music, between "Drowsy Maggie" and "Come Josephine In My Flying Machine".  I titled it as "Original Piano Performance - Eternal Father Strong To Save", and it's just piano playing the hymn.

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Hey TitanicFan, have you found the right source cue for that piano performance? I have found several cues, but none were exactly the right tone. That's one of the tracks that I had originally in my mix, but eventually removed.

 

Btw, the film stem leak is a load of crap. On first sight, the edit looks fine. But don't be fooled, it is not. It has many differences from the film mix/edit (too many for my taste), and don't get me started on the track quality. Initially, I worked with the film stems to make a complete mix. But thank god LLL came with their release. I basically threw everything in the trash and started over. Yeah sure, there are (short) pieces (ie in Hard to starboard/Rose/Unable to stay, Unwilling to leave/...) that you can't do without, but most part of that leak is a waste of time. Sadly there are also cues that aren't released (Drone&Chord, Violin tool kit, Wild piano), that makes the complete edit a bit more difficult, but hey, you can always work your way around that.

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7 hours ago, StRuPiE said:

 

Btw, the film stem leak is a load of crap. On first sight, the edit looks fine. But don't be fooled, it is not. It has many differences from the film mix/edit (too many for my taste), and don't get me started on the track quality. Initially, I worked with the film stems to make a complete mix. But thank god LLL came with their release. I basically threw everything in the trash and started over. Yeah sure, there are also (short) pieces (ie in Hard to starboard/Rose/Unable to stay, Unwilling to leave/...) that you can't do without, but most part of that leak is a waste of time. Sadly there are also cues that aren't released (Drone&Chord, Violin tool kit, Wild piano), that makes the complete edit a bit more difficult, but hey, there are always ways to work your way around that.

 

I only used that film stem for the following:

 

- adding in the heavier thumping bass line in "Take Her To Sea, Mr. Murdoch"

- the metallic whooshing sound and amped up low brass in "Hard to Starboard"

- the ending of "Intro to Building Panic" and had the larger cue "A Building Panic" start right after, removing the crossfade

- a small chunk of the no-bagpipe version of "Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave" to remove dialogue echoes

 

It was for both the main program, a few cues in the additional music & alternates, and a handful of my recreated film edits.  That being said, most of those toolbox insert cues that are still unreleased, I recreated myself in GarageBand when I redid the film edits, mostly they were for "2 1/2 Miles Down".  I only recreated "Drone & Chord" for the film mix of "A Promise Kept" but also have it as a standalone track in the additional music and alternates playlist.  In the film edits for "2 1/2 Miles Down" and "Post" I replaced "Drone & Chord" with the synth voices from "A Promise Kept" (I'm talking about the ones you hear before the clarinet solo).  Also in the film mix for "A Promise Kept", I recreated those synth voices you hear in the film playing over the low brass in the first part.  I found the "Violin Tool Kit" in the behind-the-scenes Electronic Press Kit of the film.  Also, "Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave (w/ Alt. Ending)" is still unreleased, but I was able to find the full quena ending in the EPK behind the scenes video as well.

 

5 hours ago, crumbs said:

Does anyone know the deal with that intro into the end credits song? Missing from the LLL. Not sure it was even intended to go there?

 

That's the quena solo from "Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave (w/ Alt. Ending".  Would've been nice had it been on the LLL set, but oh well.

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7 hours ago, TitanicFan2018 said:

That's the quena solo from "Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave (w/ Alt. Ending".  Would've been nice had it been on the LLL set, but oh well.

 

Ah OK, thanks for explaining. Was it Horner's intention to put it before the credits like that, or a Cameron edit? 

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14 hours ago, StRuPiE said:

 

 

Btw, the film stem leak is a load of crap

 

As is the actual butchering of the score. To each his own though. I said my piece on that...elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

Ah OK, thanks for explaining. Was it Horner's intention to put it before the credits like that, or a Cameron edit? 


No idea if it was Horner's intention, but it is not an edit (hence the title with the add-on "alt ending") It's definitely its own proper recording, likely as an insert. 

The funny thing is that everything TitanicFan did, I did, only I didn't recreate anything using a composition program. Instead I'd just made refinements along the way - refinements few have heard since doing them. 

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It's a mixture of both. Much of it is verbatim to the film, but indeed some parts - and it's clear as to why - have been recreated as this was meant for the "Titanic Live" concert performances. That's why for example the cue 2 1/2 Miles Down is not at all like the film, leaving out all of the post-processing done to the I Salonisti segments that weave in and out of the sound mix, and is missing some of the 'violin tool kit'. It's missing the first usage of it. Those pieces by I Salonisti were performed live with everything else.  

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Have any of you guys actually seen the 'Titanic Live' concert? I quickly checked their site and apperantly they are still showing. I wonder how close they matched the actual film mix/edit, just in general, not specifically the stem leak. I suppose they did all the post-processing effects and synths orchestral.

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Yes, I went to the live concert before the LLL/leak came out and before I became intimately famliar with the score: it was amazing, but don't ask me any details because I just immensely enjoyed it, nothing more.

 

NL, do you know why the leak didn't use the first part of Lovejoy Chase? Is that just a random mistake, or is there more to it?

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If I may have a guess. I think Cameron used the original cue from 'Heaven help us' for both parts. Ordered Horner to re-record the track with different endings/mixes, but turned out too similar. Cameron obviously wasn't pleased. The re-recording has the bagpipes on full force, the original 'Heaven help us' cue has more balance between instruments, more underscored. So he decided to go with his temp-track for the second part (easier to track), the re-recording for the first part just to have some sense of difference.

 

Why it wasn't included in the leak? I asked myself the same question. Probably an error by the editor, one of so many. Thankfully it was in the LLL set.

 

Find logic in this: In the leak, the source cues for the 3rd class party, are the correct ones (accurate film mix including the handclapping as per recorded by Gaelic Storm during their own sessions). Yet, on the LLL release, it's a different recording/mix without the handclapping. And that's just one example...

 

 

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Another difference I found in that film stem leak is the edit for the panic in third class sequence ("A Building Panic").  It starts with the "Intro to Building Panic" cue, but the material immediately following is replaced by elements of "Hard to Starboard".  In the actual film edit, we hear "Intro to Building Panic" and then "Trapped on 'D' Deck".  I can agree that some of the edits were recreated differently than what you hear in the film because they were intended for concert performance.  That can also explain why "A Promise Kept" didn't use "The Beacon" by Michael Stearns in the film stem.

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Yes, that could possibly be a reason.

 

Hard to starboard also has a different approach moments before it hits the berg. Both the leak/LLL have the percussion accompanied by an eerie/ghostly effect (which is not in the film mix). Only the alternate version on LLL has this part without the ghostly effect BUT does not use the right synth drums, so also incorrect. I fixed this by combining the two cues and loop the drums. Also a funny sidenote, the same eerie sound returns at the end of the cue (when the berg passes by) but also in a different mix than both the leak/LLL releases, so I had to fix that too. It's so much fun Mr. Cameron.

 

4 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Yes, I went to the live concert before the LLL/leak came out and before I became intimately famliar with the score: it was amazing, but don't ask me any details because I just immensely enjoyed it, nothing more.

 

I was wondering if the Live concert played the film version of 'Unable to stay, unwilling to leave' and I meant to ask you, but I already found an answer via a youtube clip. Apperantly the uilleann pipes were still used during the second part. I don't get it,... It should have been easy not to have included that. I still think the film version without the pipes is much better, more intimate. But I guess someone decided to play what's on the album.  

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5 hours ago, StRuPiE said:

 

 

Hard to starboard also has a different approach moments before it hits the berg. Both the leak/LLL have the percussion accompanied by an eerie/ghostly effect (which is not in the film mix). Only the alternate version on LLL has this part without the ghostly effect BUT does not use the right synth drums, so also incorrect. I fixed this by combining the two cues and loop the drums. 

 

That's exactly what I did when I recreated the "Hard to Starboard" film edit.  I removed that atmosphere effect simply by looping the ostinato synth and combining it with the alternate cue.  

 

I also made "Hard to Starboard" a film mix but without any loops and micro-edits; just the following adjustments to the audio:

 

- added in the metallic whooshing sound for the iceberg being spotted

 

- removed the atmospheric effect but added in the looped ostinato synth (I used my already-recreated film edit)

 

- added in the thicker low brass phrasing of the iceberg motif (heard when ice is falling onto the boat deck and Jack moves Rose out of the way)

 

 

  Guess I could put that into the main program of my custom complete score.  Currently in the main program, Hard to Starboard has the metallic sound and amped up low brass but still has the aforementioned atmospheric synth.  In addition I added in the heavier low brass into the alternate track but included the muffled timpani roll.  LLL just decided to use the OST mix in that section.

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It might be useful if you also utilized the 5.1 mix of the OST since it's something to have a better control over, and the differences between the 5.1 mix and the stereo mix of the OST vary from cue to cue. 

 

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Yeah.

 

Its a beautiful-sounding instrument, anyway.

 

In 2002 James Horner was interviewed and lamented that an instrument as beautiful as the uillleann pipes was a cliche at that point. He said violins uillieann pipes and accordions had become that over time for audiences.

He'd use them once more for Bobby Jones and that was pretty much it. 

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I especially liked how Horner used the uilleann bagpipes extensively for Braveheart, which is one of the reasons I love that score so dearly.  On the other hand he used the bagpipes much more sparingly in Titanic.  And I can only think of a handful of cues that use them:

 

- Logo / Main Title (1st half is also "Never an Absolution" on the OST)

- Logo [Alt. Extended]

- Trailer

- Leaving Port [Film Version]

- Lovejoy Chases Jack & Rose

- Lovejoy Chases Jack [Alt.]

- Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave (pipes removed in the film mix)

- Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave [w/ Alt. Ending] (pipes again removed from audio in film mix)

 

 

 

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Sparse though it may be, its still a little weird for me. Although, again, I love the instrument, so I'm in two minds on this.

 

They obviously fit much better in Braveheart.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be heating up popcorn for the heated "why not use highland bagpipes?" debate that'll soon ensue.

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40 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I have to be honest and say that, if I didn't love the film as dearly as I did, I probably wouldn't have thought too much of the score.

 

It's a bit of an uneven listening experience, but the best parts are unbeatable... at least by Horner himself. ;)

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And because they're so often attached to such evocative imagery, they work all the better. The outlawed tune benefits from this enormously: its a truly indelible photograph (John Toll's greatest achievement - and that's saying a helluva lot), and one that I keep flashing back to when I hear the tune.

 

Brings one to tears.

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This one:

 

 

The tune itself is just a rip-off of Amazing Grace. To Horner's defense, though, that's what the script calls for.

 

But the photograph is beyond brilliant, so it all comes together as incredibly haunting, to me.

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I recall a commentary from Mel Gibson on the DVD, I believe it was he who chose the ulleann pipes, not Horner. He thought the highland bagpipes were too damn loud. Good choise Mel!

 

That imagery from Toll is just breathtaking, same goes for Thin Red Line. No wonder those are 2 of my fav movies.

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Indeed, people have ragged on Horner since 1995 for the choice, but it was a purely musical than geographical one. 

I mean the lead instrument Tony Hinnigan plays in these scores isn't celtic whatsoever, but it's always worked and no one's said anything about that. 

Unless South America is part of the UK...

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7 minutes ago, NL197 said:

but it was a purely musical than geographical one. 

 

Yeah, highland pipes would've just been all wrong for the kind of music he wrote for the film.

 

Plus, good luck recording a highland bagpipe with an orchestra in a room. Brings to mind the horror stories of recording the rhaita in The Lord of the Rings.

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I found this comment:

 

Quote

One frustrating aspect of modern movies are that they show an actor with a set of highland pipes and the soundtrack plays a smallpipe with a larger or more chromatic musical range. This can lead to a disappointed patron when you explain that the "Dragon's Lullaby"  (from Dragon World) or the "Outlawed tunes on an Outlawed Pipe" (from Braveheart) can't be played on your pipe.  (In both these cases, the music comes from Uilleann pipes and not Great Highland Bagpipes.)

 

So even if they wanted to use bagpipes, it wasn't musically possible to play those notes. Interesting!

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