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James Horner's TITANIC (2017 4CD expanded edition from La-La Land Records)


Jay

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I've seen so many people online talking about film mixes and making a film mix and it has me baffled. People on here HATE TPM UE because it's the butchered film version. Titanic gets released C&C as the composer intended... and people want the butchered version! 

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It's possible to appreciate both the way the music played in the film and the way it was intended to be heard. While much of the music in the film is a hodge-podge, there are moments that offer something interesting musically--like inside the wreck--even though they're not what Horner intended. A playlist can contain both.

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People who for years wanted the complete score, wanted the complete score as they had heard in the film because they hadn't heard Horner's rejected cues. I really like how the music was used in the film and I don't care if that was how Horner intended it, I really like it. I do also like the rejected music on the LLL, although honestly, some of it does not seem to fit the movie Titanic. But again, we can like both!

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Also, "as heard in the film" edits can be recreated from a complete release of the score.


A complete score cannot be recreated from a final film edit dump.

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Yes most of it can be recreated, using the LLL edition. Some cues would every difficult though (like Rose and Unable to Stay, Unwilling to Leave for instance) because it has to do with mixing etc.

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Personally, I love to keep the "as intended" score with as few edits as possible.

 

The only difference may be the "Main Theme - Sketch" piece should e integrated into the score.

 

My copy of this should ship in 4-7 days according to the status email.

 

Boy is this going to be interesting.

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My copy arrived today, which was very surprising.  It shipped Saturday and was still listed as in California yesterday, and somehow made its way to Ohio today.  Not that I am complaining, aside from the rather large crack in the jewel case, but I don't care enough to complain.

 

Amazing set over all, but I especially love the fleshed out opening section of the film, especially the track "2 1/2 Miles Down," with its surprisingly unsettling synths that very slowly give way to the vocal theme for the Titanic.  It's haunting scoring, really fantastic stuff, that captures the mystery of the opening of the film before we as an audience make the human connection with the characters via flashback, and it's a shame so much of it was dialed out in the film.

 

I already switched out "The Painting" with the "album version" on disc 3.  That's a really unbearable piece of music, that I will only keep in my playlist, at the end, as a curiosity

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This what the timeline for my re-created "2 1/2 Miles Down" looks like. It really gives you a sense of the work that went into cutting the music for the movie.

The 4 minute cue represents three moments: when the MIRs reach the wreck, when the ROVs enter the ship and pass over the boot and doll's head, and when "Snoop Dog" flips the wardrobe door over to reveal the safe.
 

 

2 1-2 miles down timeline.PNG

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I could understand the desire for film cues if they had been re-recorded but rewatching the film and paying close attention to the music isn’t an enjoyable experience. The Music edits are sloppy and jarring. I get that that’s the way Cameron works and if you just watch the film it’s fine but actively choosing to listening to the butchered film mix? Nah, sorry. I don’t understand that!

 

But thankfully the proper version has been released and if people want to make film mixes in audacity that’s their choice!

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As I posted on the FSM forum, I understand the sentiment. Many of the edits are painfully obvious in the film even when they have the benefit of being covered in the mix. To recreate those edits would require even further editing to create something approaching a seamless listening experience. I don't think I'll bother making edits of other cues.
 

However, 2 1/2 Miles Down is a special case. The full, 10-minute cue is a solid listening experience, but doesn't seem to be a case of "what was intended". Playing the cue under the film makes it clear that it was either recorded to play under a different edit of the sequence--the hits in the music don't sync with the cuts or reveals and it's much longer than the sequence, continuing all the way until Rose calls Brock on the Keldysh--or it was always intended to be cut and edited into the film per Cameron's needs.
 

The cue is ethereal enough anyway that the slow fades and ghostly mixing of elements are far less noticeable than cues later in the film. I just like what Cameron did there, especially Sissel's vocals and the sustained strings from "Post".

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Finally got round to placing my order this morning. It took a while to convince my wallet to come out of hiding.

 

Nice to see that some people seem to be getting this quite quickly. The same thing happened to me with E.T. It arrived through my door in the UK within a few days of ordering and before my order status had even changed :)

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4 hours ago, Colonial Marine said:

As I posted on the FSM forum, I understand the sentiment. Many of the edits are painfully obvious in the film even when they have the benefit of being covered in the mix. To recreate those edits would require even further editing to create something approaching a seamless listening experience. I don't think I'll bother making edits of other cues.
 

However, 2 1/2 Miles Down is a special case. The full, 10-minute cue is a solid listening experience, but doesn't seem to be a case of "what was intended". Playing the cue under the film makes it clear that it was either recorded to play under a different edit of the sequence--the hits in the music don't sync with the cuts or reveals and it's much longer than the sequence, continuing all the way until Rose calls Brock on the Keldysh--or it was always intended to be cut and edited into the film per Cameron's needs.
 

The cue is ethereal enough anyway that the slow fades and ghostly mixing of elements are far less noticeable than cues later in the film. I just like what Cameron did there, especially Sissel's vocals and the sustained strings from "Post".

Yes the music used in the opening wreck scene in the film is really great! Especially the part at the end (before "To the Keldysh").

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I still haven't received a shipping or tracking notice, but from memory ET/Rosewood were both in my mailbox when the order status still said Will ship in 2-3 days.

 

I ordered about an hour after it went live, so hopefully my copy will arrive by this weekend (3 days to go).

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5 hours ago, Colonial Marine said:

This what the timeline for my re-created "2 1/2 Miles Down" looks like. It really gives you a sense of the work that went into cutting the music for the movie.

The 4 minute cue represents three moments: when the MIRs reach the wreck, when the ROVs enter the ship and pass over the boot and doll's head, and when "Snoop Dog" flips the wardrobe door over to reveal the safe.

 

I started on a trailer edit last night (incorporating the CUF cues) and it's easily as complicated as this one. I finally call it a night at about 1.30am with one bit left to do. Certainly there is at least one really horrible edit that's covered by dialogue, and when isolated, took some work to make it listenable. Some others I'd struggle to approve of if they weren't covered by other elements.

 

In one case, the editor appears to have switched to one track for a few seconds, then to another almost identically-sounding one, for no reason I can see. It seems Cameron must've been really intricate in the mixing he wanted, but clearly didn't mind a few rather dodgy edits.

 

Thing is, it's all well and good saying that a cue is 'as intended' and therefore that's how we should hear it, but think about why Cameron (and others in his position) edited/tracked the music in the first place? He decided that something worked better in the film than what Horner originally wrote. I've seen references in the JP threads about some of SS's replacements working better than JW's oriignal cues, so I think there's nothing wrong with wanting to hear the film mix/edit on some occasions, even if it has some less than brilliant edits.

 

Ripples is I think the most prominent example recently. I think the film edit is way better than JW's cue and it's impossible to recreate it using the box because of the layers. I think in cases like that, we could potentially have been given a stripped down mix of the cue as a bonus.

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Just checked all the old order status pages for past LLL orders and they all still say Will ship in 2-3 days. I've never been sent a tracking number or a shipping confirmation email; they just turn up unexpectedly.

 

Actually, I might have inquired about Jurassic Park and only then was provided a tracking number. Is it just random whether or not they actually send you a shipping confirmation email (which I'm guessing has the tracking number)?

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3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

 

In one case, the editor appears to have switched to one track for a few seconds, then to another almost identically-sounding one, for no reason I can see. It seems Cameron must've been really intricate in the mixing he wanted, but clearly didn't mind a few rather dodgy edits.

 

Thing is, it's all well and good saying that a cue is 'as intended' and therefore that's how we should hear it, but think about why Cameron (and others in his position) edited/tracked the music in the first place? He decided that something worked better in the film than what Horner originally wrote.

 

Considering how much butchering Cameron did on Aliens, Titanic and Avatar, as well as that archival Don Davis interview taking into account Cameron's overarching need for total control over every facet of his films, it's clear so often in his editorial choices that he's messing with something just to mess with it. Just to have that control. Like someone who hangs up a painting on a wall hook in a house, then the homeowner looks at it, sees its straight, but decides he must have it 'just so' and messes with it anyway. There's nothing wrong with it other than he needed to get his hands on it. Move it just cause. Some people are just like that is all. 

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No disrespect to Fidel, but maybe he did with T2 and True Lies but it's not as noticeable because of the nature of his music? Or he had more input on the end result before it was put to picture so it didn't have to be changed...or the editing wasn't as down to the wire as the others.

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So, as a comparison, I just finished my trailer edit and this is what it took to do the tracked second half. At least 2 or 3 of the edits didn't need to be there - mostly for the repeated percussion during the final minute or so. The first edit on the left is the horrible one - it can only possibly have been allowed because the scene focuses on background dialogue.

 

I wonder if Cameron just got them to make this edit as a temp, then decided to keep it, or if it was really late in the game and he couldn't get Horner to rescore.

 

edit.png

 

 

I also did my 2nd pass through my playlist, and my approach is slightly unusual - I've essentially cut out all of the material with the My Heart Will Go On theme. I just can't stand it these days. What remains focuses on the tragedy/action/ship elements..

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I was going to make it a Christmas present, but then I ordered The Haunting and decided to stow that away instead.

 

I can't get enough of the Main Titles melody and its variations throughout the score. Such a beautiful and tragic theme. Someone's managed to put most of the film on YT (minus the Rose & Jack scenes) without it being taken down, and it was nice to rewatch a few scenes. Also reminded me of what a fricking awesome film it is.

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Just out of curiosity, have any of you all heard of Titanic Live? It's one of those live scoring to picture concerts and, because it's live, there are no sloppy edits so you can listen to the score as in the movie without the agony of the edits.

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1 hour ago, Space Pineapple Prod. said:

Just out of curiosity, have any of you all heard of Titanic Live? It's one of those live scoring to picture concerts and, because it's live, there are no sloppy edits so you can listen to the score as in the movie without the agony of the edits.

 

That's actually incorrect, it is still the same edited score performed live. Orchestrator JAC Redford had to recreate all of the film edits using both the film mix of the score and the original sheet music, basically stitching the entire score together like that for the musicians to play. 

 

There was also "Aliens Live" which also featured the edited score. 

 

For Titanic there are minor differences between the film and the live performance, letting certain pieces play longer (Southampton has its entire middle section dialed out in the film but plays through in the live performance) and the source music is also performed live with the score. 

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2 hours ago, NL197 said:

 

That's actually incorrect, it is still the same edited score performed live. Orchestrator JAC Redford had to recreate all of the film edits using both the film mix of the score and the original sheet music, basically stitching the entire score together like that for the musicians to play. 

 

There was also "Aliens Live" which also featured the edited score. 

 

For Titanic there are minor differences between the film and the live performance, letting certain pieces play longer (Southampton has its entire middle section dialed out in the film but plays through in the live performance) and the source music is also performed live with the score. 

Ah, it appears I was unclear. I understand that it is still the edited score, but it's played live so the edits are not present. That's what I meant. I also knew there were some differences, but thank you for the example. That I did not know. 

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6 hours ago, lemoncurd said:

what about this little cue, is it part of the original "2 1/2 miles down" ? Is it somewhere on this edition?

 

Yes, it's 2 1/2 miles down from :40 - 1:24.  There's an overlay that starts at 1:13 in that clip I haven't identified yet.

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2 hours ago, Turbo said:

 

Yes, it's 2 1/2 miles down from :40 - 1:24.  There's an overlay that starts at 1:13 in that clip I haven't identified yet.

The French horn part, I've never been able to identify where that came from. 

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14 hours ago, Space Pineapple Prod. said:

Ah, it appears I was unclear. I understand that it is still the edited score, but it's played live so the edits are not present. That's what I meant. I also knew there were some differences, but thank you for the example. That I did not know. 

 

It plays live, but most of the artificial edits created to conform the score to the finished film have been recreated musically for the performance.  It's still very choppy and not a good musical experience.

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34 minutes ago, Jim Ware said:

 

It plays live, but most of the artificial edits created to conform the score to the finished film have been recreated musically for the performance.  It's still very choppy and not a good musical experience.

 

Yeah, I can’t imagine it’s possible to present the music as heard in the film in a pleasant way. Aside from weird edits there are bits of music that play on top of each other which just don’t sound musically correct. 

 

Not musically literate enough to describe it properly but in the infamous finale track there’s a second where two or theee different score ideas are playing on top of each other and they sound like they’re different keys or something. It’s brief but not nice. 

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6 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

 

It plays live, but most of the artificial edits created to conform the score to the finished film have been recreated musically for the performance.  It's still very choppy and not a good musical experience.

Yeah, I see what you mean. In my opinion, it's slightly less painful to listen to the concert, because while the edits are recreated, they sound a LOT better than they do in the film. 

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16 minutes ago, Jay said:

2 1/2 Miles Down and Trapped on D Deck are my favorite new tracks!

 

I also really enjoyed Horner's 5 minute piano performance of the love theme.  Something we'd likely never heard to this day if Cameron hadn't tracked the first 2 minutes into the film.


Can you imagine if we started getting JW's piano demos for Steven on releases?

 

Ah stop! I never even considered that as a possibility!

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On 6-12-2017 at 7:53 PM, NL197 said:

For Titanic there are minor differences between the film and the live performance, letting certain pieces play longer (Southampton has its entire middle section dialed out in the film but plays through in the live performance) and the source music is also performed live with the score. 

 

It also features an alternate ending to "Take Her to Sea, Mr. Murdoch...", which has a brass fanfare over the existing music. It plays when the camera pulls back over the ship sailing onto the Atlantic. I have not heard the new La-La Land set yet, but judging from the track list, it looks like this is now released as well.

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8 hours ago, Mr. Breathmask said:

 

It also features an alternate ending to "Take Her to Sea, Mr. Murdoch...", which has a brass fanfare over the existing music. It plays when the camera pulls back over the ship sailing onto the Atlantic. I have not heard the new La-La Land set yet, but judging from the track list, it looks like this is now released as well.

 

Indeed it's on disc 3, though it should have been titled like Leaving Port, specifying that it's an "alternate ending" not a total alternate piece of music, since up until then it's verbatim with the original album track. 

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On 12/6/2017 at 10:53 PM, Turbo said:

 

Yes, it's 2 1/2 miles down from :40 - 1:24.  There's an overlay that starts at 1:13 in that clip I haven't identified yet.

 

I've found it:

1:31 into "First Sighting / Rose's Suicide Attempt". It has a synth overlay, but that's the music right there. 

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36 minutes ago, NL197 said:

 

I've found it:

1:31 into "First Sighting / Rose's Suicide Attempt". It has a synth overlay, but that's the music right there. 

Yes exactly. One has to cut a few things to get the timing of the film version right.

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It's interesting to hear some of the alternates. Like that one Take Her to Sea, Mr Murdoch alternate cue that ends on this exciting flourish that make me almost feel "is this a nod to Williams' Superman or something?". Seems like Cameron toned down everything that wasn't streamlined and pop-like.

 

Karol

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