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THE LAST JEDI - Score as heard in the movie thread - SPOILERS ALLOWED

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1 hour ago, crumbs said:

the tiresome, toxic negativity that pervades this thread from the usual suspects. This score is just fucking magnificent.

 

Because criticism is negative and toxic, whereas praise is...what exactly?

 

Its just a good score. There's nothing truly magnificent about it, to my mind, except the way its mixed in the film (which admittedly is very important) compared to the better composed but nigh inaudible score to The Force Awakens.

 

I quite like a few of the highlights: I like Rose's theme, and that quote of Luke and Leia I found to be really moving, but otherwise its so insistent on existing thematic material, often pulled as-is from existing cues and even concert arrangements, that I can't hail it as one of the better Star Wars scores. Again, not a bad score by any stretch of the imagination, its just fine. But one shouldn't be criticized for wanting more of out it than what it is.

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I don't understand the love for TLJ's score, because it is mediocre for a SW score.  But if people love it then that's great for them. 

 

If someone not liking the score upsets you so much, there is something wrong with you. 

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7 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

Was a thread created for specifically discussing the thematic material in TLJ or the ST in general?  I thought there was, but I can't find it...

 

There's a very good leitmotivic break-down of the score here:

 

 

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One of the things the drives me nuts about this score is the end-credits suite. There's that beautiful tribute to Carrie Fisher, which works wonders from a dramatic standpoint: after listening to all this romantic, grand orchestral music (either in just this film or this score, but certainly if you watch or listen to them in the narrative order of the works) you suddenly pull back and present an unadorned, solo piano. Its a great juxtaposition, and a first for a Star Wars score. Its brilliant!

 

But its waaaay too short, and cuts very abruptly back to the orchestral material. I would have prefered listening to it for the rest of the end-credits, or at least for another minute or so. It would also be a much better cap to the score, rather than ending in that chimes figure from the introduction to Rey's theme.

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I agree about the use of Leia's theme in the end credits... it's too abrupt and short.  I was originally very disappointed with the end credits suite (both OST and FYC) and while I've warmed up to both, I'm still not completely satisfied since most of it is copy/paste.  The TFA end credits suite really spoiled us and set the bar high for future end credits suites.  I would have preferred the end credits start with a new arrangement of Leia's theme up to her tribute followed by the new thematic material (Rose/Island/desperation themes) and end with a fanfare rendition of Rey's theme (although I do love that softer version of Rey's theme).

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Why this film ends with Rey's theme at all, I have no idea. The main character of the film is Luke. Rey is barely in the third act of the film: her story in this film effectively wraps up at the midpoint. Also, its weird to close the film in what is an introduction figure to a theme, rather than the "meat" of the theme or some end-cap figure, especially since the quoted figure is hardly in the score. But than, I should also confess that I have a strong dislike for that chime figure, in general.

 

Leia's theme on piano closing the film would have been a much nicer parallel to Luke's theme closing The Force Awakens.

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Rey's plays the most important role in the next episode, which is announced ny the chime figure at the end. It makes perfectly sense.

 

I get the impression SW 8 is seen like HP 2 by some. Too much copy-paste, but the 80% of new music are ignored.

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41 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Rey's plays the most important role in the next episode, which is announced ny the chime figure at the end. It makes perfectly sense.

 

You don't know that,  and neither does John Williams. So this interpretation, while you could possibly make it stick in hindsight after we see and hear Episode IX, is certainly not telling of the composer's intention. I think its more in the general line of thought of "well, Rey is the through-line of this trilogy, so I'll use her theme." Its not so much a preview to the next episode because Williams doesn't work like that.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Why this film ends with Rey's theme at all, I have no idea. The main character of the film is Luke. Rey is barely in the third act of the film: her story in this film effectively wraps up at the midpoint. Also, its weird to close the film in what is an introduction figure to a theme, rather than the "meat" of the theme or some end-cap figure, especially since the quoted figure is hardly in the score. But than, I should also confess that I have a strong dislike for that chime figure, in general.

 

Leia's theme on piano closing the film would have been a much nicer parallel to Luke's theme closing The Force Awakens.

Luke is not the main character in The Force Awakens but his theme is closing the film. 

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While Williams, of course, has no idea about IX, it seems likely the film will center on the continuing dynamic of Ren and Rey, while a ghost Luke guides Rey in a supporting role (Hamill was signed on to do 3 films).  There aren't really many options unless if they add more characters or focus more on the broom kid (please no).  Rey already tried to get Ren to come to the light side so will she continue that or will she go to the dark side (not at all likely)?  I feel like Johnson didn't leave Abrams many options to finish the trilogy.

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Just now, Stefancos said:

Johnson gave JJ the opportunity to move Star Wars beyond what it has done before. They already did all the "seduction" to the light/dark side in this film. So JJ will have to think of another angle.

That’s what I’m afraid of. I don’t think he’s stuck the landing in any of his original material.

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38 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

t seems likely the film will center on the continuing dynamic of Ren and Rey, while a ghost Luke guides Rey in a supporting role (Hamill was signed on to do 3 films).  There aren't really many options unless if they add more characters or focus more on the broom kid (please no).  Rey already tried to get Ren to come to the light side so will she continue that or will she go to the dark side (not at all likely)?  I feel like Johnson didn't leave Abrams many options to finish the trilogy.

 

You could expect one new character and/or subplot, in the very least.

 

Screenwriters are generally tempted to make the third film about more than just the resolution of the previous two films. You always want to put some substance into it that is original to that film: e.g. the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi. Actually, because its the conclusive chapter, the temptation to make it "big" by putting more and more additional stuff and multiple storylines into it, is all the more strong. If anything, I would actually say Johnson effectively made it possible for Abrams to do whatever he desires with Episode IX, rather than ending his film in a way that directly suggests the course of the next film.

 

Either way, that says very little of the thematic material that will end up being featured heavily in Williams next score. He could rely heavily on Rey's theme, but he might as well not.

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1 hour ago, someonefun124 said:

I have a feeling Abrams will play it safe, TLJ backlash or not.  I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

 

You want JJ to play it safe?

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I wouldn't expect too much.

 

Its so easy for the third film of three to be overwrought and just not as good as at least one, if not both, of the other films. Again, stemming from the conflict between trying to write a conclusion to the previous films, and trying to write an original, stand-alone motion picture; and also from the desire to make it grand and climactic, while often still trying to shy away from true poignancy.

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I am hoping for Ep. IX to be the Star Wars film most diverging from the norm, so that it pisses all hardcore fans off even more.

The climactic and nostalgic potential is fully exploited, so now to something completely different.

 

There are trilogies whose last entry is the best:

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy

Dollar Trilogy

Once Upon a Time... Trilogy

Trilogy of Depressions

Indiana Jones Trilogy (to some)

Jurassic Park Trilogy (kiddin')

Star Wars Prequel Trilogy (doesn't mean anything)

 

Okay, the only coherent franchise that counts is The Lord of the Rings, but who knows. Maybe it won't be the only example for long any more.

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Yeah, but The Lord of the Rings (and The Hobbit) was essentially one long script and one long movie, all made by one groupe of people, split three ways. Star Wars doesn't even have the bare-bones of the story figured out in advance, and its different episodes are made by different screen-writers and filmmakers, across a longer period of time. So it won't have that sense of a natural conclusion.

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49 minutes ago, crumbs said:

the usual suspects coming in to condescendingly inform us how wrong we are for liking it.

 

Who said that?

 

Hell, I'm not even saying that I don't like it. I do! I might even like it more than The Force Awakens: its more extrovert and the mix favors it much more. But its still a lesser score among the Williams/Star Wars repertoire, and I simply try to articulate why that is, to me.

 

I think that's a much more interesting subject for discussion (which is the goal of the forum) and a gracious debate, instead of just a series of comments that all express a similar sentiment of "Dis iz awezom!" That's not a discussion, that's a choir!

 

49 minutes ago, crumbs said:

the predictable, ignorant comments about the score's "lack of originality" kill any discussion about its merits. Who gives a fuck if it quotes existing concert suites? 

 

I would hardly call those comments "ignorant".

 

49 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 As soon as someone started bitching about the post-Main Title ANH motif, I'd had enough.

 

Again, who bitched about that?

 

49 minutes ago, crumbs said:

where was all the outrage at the post-Main Title music being repeated from TPM in AOTC? And all the other various recycling that occurred throughout the prequels? Selective memory, convenient as always.

 

Not so much convenient memory as much as it is understanding that two wrongs don't make a right.

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:03 AM, Stefancos said:

Johnson gave JJ the opportunity to move Star Wars beyond what it has done before. They already did all the "seduction" to the light/dark side in this film. So JJ will have to think of another angle.

 

There's a lot of SW tropes ep 9 cant use because ep 8 already concluded them, and i find that interesting.

Oh how little faith you have in the power of a plot involving time-travel.  

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I'm yet to regularly listen to the FYC, mainly because some of the tracks are so all over the place (especially Escape). I also can't get past the digital artefacts in tracks that were tempo-slowed to picture (especially the sublime "Rey's Journey" which is almost unlistenable to me).

 

I'll get around to making my own edit eventually, or listening to someone else's, but for now the OST is cool. 

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6 hours ago, artguy360 said:

It's gonna be a few years before we can discuss TLJ in any kind of long and interesting way because a few posters feel an instinctive urge to respond to any posts of appreciation with some form of negativity, as if the one thing the internet needs more of is negativity.

Let's say there's a line, at least in this thread, which seperates the discussion about bitching and negativity from the actual discussion about the music. Behind that line there's just serious and peaceful, but also critical and ambitious discussion, no bitching or insulting or anything else like that.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

To be honest, my favourite theme that is introduced in TLJ is the Desperation Theme. I have a faible for solo horns and the big intervall jumps in the melody as well as the fact that it is not so catchy make it one of my all time favourites, I guess. Too bad the cue before Chrome Dome is not on the OST, but at least we have a revision in the end credits suite.

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I'm not very high on TLJ score myself but there are parts I enjoy and I am more than able to acknowledge and discuss the positives rather than linger on the negatives. I do hope we get a complete release at some point. Right now the FYC is a bit of a mess and the audio quality is too poor to make it an adequate substitute to any track on the OST. I feel like an entirely different presentation of the score could be arranged with a greater focus on the Resistance and all the material surrounding the "space chase" stuff. 

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12 minutes ago, ocelot said:

I think his Mickey Mousing is fantastic. I'm hating this new thing of scoring against the film over and over. It's a fantastic thing to do, but I think it's also lazy as if certain composers cannot do anything but write a wet blanket's worth of sound, but I agree that there is something unique in Chrome Dome. Love the harmonies and orchestrations there as well.

 

 

Each to their own and all that, but I should clarify that I don't have an inherent problem with Mickey Mousing, particularly in light-hearted films and scenes. But a fight scene like the one above could have come across as cheesy if Williams hadn't have made the decisions he did. Either way you look at it, we can agree that he nailed it this time round.

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21 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

Each to their own and all that, but I should clarify that I don't have an inherent problem with Mickey Mousing, particularly in light-hearted films and scenes. But a fight scene like the one above could have come across as cheesy if Williams hadn't have made the decisions he did. Either way you look at it, we can agree that he nailed it this time round.

Oh I agree totally!!! If the Mickey Mousing here hadn't been totally angry and crunchy, it would have been totally cheesy! That's why I love how he does it!

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14 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Chen, you might not want to hear it but you're one of the worst offenders. If you're not policing people's interpretations of leitmotif, you're comparing Star Wars to LOTR and how much more thematically consistent that work is. Read the room - sometimes opinions are better left unsaid, particularly if they have the potential to prevent any kind of constructive discussion. Contrary to what you may think, the majority of posts about TLJ aren't exactly "Dis iz awezom", but the conversation sure as hell can't progress past "I really like this score and here's why" when people are constantly having their opinions questioned and challenged. It's intimidating and exhausting and makes posting here unpleasant.

 

Why would I not want to hear it?

 

As long as we are not going into ad hominem territory or profanities, nothing is "better left unsaid", nothing is off of the table, and "questioning and challenging" others views (including my own) are par for the course, if not the very purpose of the board. That is the very nature of what a discussion is. If that intimidates you, than, you might not want to hear it, but you are not ready to have a discussion

 

I have no problem with the claim "I really like this score and here's why". A good example would be this:

 

4 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

"Chrome Dome" really is something special joined to the visuals. I've never much enjoyed Williams hitting sync points so frequently in some of his cues (that whole Mickey Mousing thing) but something about this cue is different. I think it's because the harmonies and orchestrations are so heavy and brutal, it makes the music take on a gravity of its own and you can feel every swing and hit of the fight. That last chord especially just hits so hard.

 

I actually agree (although I have a cordial dislike for the actual sequence in the film) but, you must admit, this kind of articulation of why you like the things you like is the exception, not the rule, as far as this thread is considered. Rather, the "here's why" clause is often left by the wayside.

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