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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)


Jay

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2 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Not necessarily. Not if they had jump forward in the timeline something like 100-500 years after the end of ROTJ, and with maybe a threat that wasn't necessarily spread over the whole galaxy or whatever.

 

And absolutely no one was interested in that!

 

1 minute ago, SF1_freeze said:

Ever heard of the Thrawn Trilogy Starwars books of the now officially alternate starwars canon. This is an original story much better than the ST, which doesn't diminish anything achieved in RotJ and also has a plausible backstory that makes sense involving the whole Starwars Galaxy.

So this is easily possible, if an author really cares.

 

 

ROTJ isn't a particularly good film, so I'm glad its not the final word on Star Wars.

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14 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

So this is easily possible, if an author really cares.

 

Oh, its possible alright.

 

I just was never expecting Disney to do that.

 

In one way, you don't want to do that because you want something that continues to develop material from the existing films, not something that happens so long afterwards that the connection between the two becomes tenuous. You want a single, overarching narrative thrust throughout.

 

14 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

ROTJ isn't a particularly good film, so I'm glad its not the final word on Star Wars.

 

That much is true.

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5 hours ago, crocodile said:

 

 

One more thing. Did anyone had this feeling this felt like an ending chapter rather than a middle one? Not many loose threads left... In fact there's only one of any real significance...Kylo. And now that Han, Luke and Leia are out of the picture it doesn't really have any emotional stakes.

 

Karol

 

Watching the trailers and all the pre hype/publicity, it certainly has that feel to it.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The victory at the end of ROTJ is that they blew up another Death Star and the Emperor is dead. 

 

Never once was it stated in that film that evil was destroyed forever, it doesn't even state that the Empire has been destroyed.

 

Correct my friend.

 

Given this is a galaxy wide conflict it would make sense the Empire would still exist in some form. That’s why I don’t have an issue with the First Order. Reastablishing peace would probably take awhile.

 

you have systems that are undoubtedly still loyal to the Empire.

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43 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

Ever heard of the Thrawn Trilogy Starwars books of the now officially alternate starwars canon. This is an original story much better than the ST, which doesn't diminish anything achieved in RotJ and also has a plausible backstory that makes sense involving the whole Starwars Galaxy.

So this is easily possible, if an author really cares.

 

 

In Legends, the Empire still remains in a hundred fragments for 15-20 years (if I remember correctly), but since nobody really replaced Palpatine as a strong, unifying leader, every officer and warlord controls their own fleet and territory and fight themselves over whose "Empire" is the real one on the fringes of the Outer Rim. Thrawn came close to being that strong leader, and maybe Pellaeon near the end, but he was the one who made peace with the New Republic.

 

Now, is it such a big stretch that in this new universe, there WAS a strong, unifying leader (Snoke, or somebody before him - I haven't read the new books yet) who didn't let it all fall apart, but reformed it in secret? I don't think this is more impalusible, just different.

 

A quick wiki search validates what I initally thought about the Republic: there was a hasty military disarmament act, which got rid of most of the centralized republic fleet. That way, it makes sense what little was left of it would be protecting the capital, and also explains the Resistance's name: they resist the disarmament act and fight. Still doesn't explain the Republic supporting them in the opening crawl.

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Okay I've had time to fully digest this film.

 

What I liked:

- Mark Hamill, he was outstanding in this film, him and Daisy Ridley had great chemistry

- I actually liked the Canto Bight scenes, it was something a bit different and it gave JW some good musical opportunities

- Rey's parents being nobodies 

- Kylo and Rey verses the praetorian guards was pretty epic

- Kylo and Rey's relationship and character development in general

- Visually I think this is the most impressive out of all the films.

 

What I didn't like:

- The sequel trilogy really has completely wasted the talents of Andy Serkis, Gwendoline Christie, Benicia del Toro and Laura Dern

- As epic as it was, killing of Snoke seems a bit meh. We don't really know anything about him to have any reaction to that. Same about Holdo. She didn't really do enough to warrant that death scene - it wouldn't have suited Leía more.

- I agree with a previous comment that Captain Phasma is like Darth Maul. What a criminally underdeveloped character.

- Some of the humour was good but it was straying dangerously into David Yates/Harry Potter territory. Sometimes it was just completely inappropriate.

 

Some other thoughts:

- Porgs. Why? I thought I read an interview with RJ and he said they actually did something useful. Clearly not.

- The Yoda scene was tastefully done. I didn't think it felt too forced, and it would actually make sense for Luke to communicate with him.

- I'm glad Mark and Carrie had a final scene together

- I did get the impression that RJ wasn't a massive fan of TFA.

- Hopefully JJ won't f*** up Episode IX

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14 minutes ago, Holko said:

In Legends[...]A quick wiki search

 

If its not something that appears in the films, it doesn't matter!

 

Star Wars is, first and foremost, a film series.

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30 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

She didn't use the force in TESB or ROTJ. 

 

I guess she sensed Han's death, but thats about it.

 

It could be argued that Leia used the force to locate Luke, on Bespin ("I know where Luke is"), and, on Endor, to discern who her family was ("I know. Somehow, I've always known").

There's also a suggestion that, in the carbon-freeze chamber, the force "alerted" Leia to the possibility that Vader was more than what was accepted.

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25 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

It could be argued that Leia used the force to locate Luke, on Bespin ("I know where Luke is"), and, on Endor, to discern who her family was ("I know. Somehow, I've always known").

There's also a suggestion that, in the carbon-freeze chamber, the force "alerted" Leia to the possibility that Vader was more than what was accepted.

 

But certainly a MASSIVE leap to what you see in this movie. 

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1 hour ago, SF1_freeze said:

Ever heard of the Thrawn Trilogy Starwars books of the now officially alternate starwars canon. This is an original story much better than the ST, which doesn't diminish anything achieved in RotJ and also has a plausible backstory that makes sense involving the whole Starwars Galaxy.

So this is easily possible, if an author really cares.

 

 

Nah, the Thrawn trilogy is a pile of shite 

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Went to the midnight premiere yesterday, here's my 2 cents on the movie:

 

It was probably the worst Star Wars movie. Here's why:

1. The important stuff is underdeveloped

The important stuff is the Luke/Kylo/Rey/Snoke stuff, no matter how much the survival of the resistance is at stake in this movie. The movie should have focused on that, but it chose to switch between three plot lines.

It seems the writers weren't confident that they could pull off a movie centered around what the force is and jedi training, and they decided to interrupt this whenever they could fit in an action sequence, no matter how pointless it is (Why the fuck is no one telling Poe about the real escape plan once he's starting the mutiny?! Was the horse stuff on Canto necessary AT ALL?!).

 

As a consequence, we see little of Rey and Luke training, we don't get to know why Luke was feeling the dark side in Kylo, we get no new insights into the force other than that it enables galactic video calling, we don't see Snoke being an actual badass and we really don't know much abotu Kylo's inner conflict. Basically, character motivations and capabilities are severely underdeveloped. Whatever then happens between them is neither deeply emotional nor particularly satisfying.

 

 

2. The bullshit is everywhere

By bullshit i mean stuff that doesn't fit the Star Wars universe or was introduced to 

  1. sell toys (the porgs had funny moments, but were wayyyy overused)
  2. attract viewers from different markets around the world (asian character, BB-8 totally nuts)
  3. promote gender equality by stuffing female characters in EVERYWHERE (it was a bit much imo. Imagine how much better canto been would've been as a Poe&Finn buddy adventure instead of that cringey lovestory)
  4. open up opportunities for countless sequels (*cough* ending)

Sure, Disney wants to milk the living shit out of Star Wars, but they're doing this at the expense of the movies. This will bite them in the ass in the long term.

 

Also, some things that were introduced could be problematic in the long run. Was Laura Dern the first one to come up with the hyperspace kamikaze attack? Who will still build big ships after that move? And those force projections will be here to stay, too, and create many situations where people will rightfully ask "why did she not do the force projection thing to solve X and Y?"

 

 

3. A lot of jokes were off

For christ's sake, who came up with the "Leia and her hair" line when meeting with Luke?! That's stuff that maybe Han Solo could've pulled off, but it was never something for Leia to say, especially not when seeing Luke for the first time in an eternity. It was also oddly self-referential to the weird hair styles of the old trilogy, and these jokes are hard to get right. The movie in general felt like it didn't take itself seriously enough at times, with the whole marvel "it's all fun and games even if the world blows up" attitude.

 

 

4. It's way too long

First Star Wars movie in which i frequently looked at my watch. Let's not get me started on Canto Bin.

 

The spaceship chase was boring as hell, and after what felt like hours they went into a cave with basically no way out. Smart move btw. Sure, they tried hard to make us care about the survival of the resistance, but did anyone really?

 

 

5. Should've killed Leia

Carrie Fisher passing away was probably a big hit for the future plans, but they actually had an easy way out in this movie: Have Leia die on the bridge of that ship at the beginning, after Kylo's hesitation. WHAT BETTER WAY TO SPARK KYLO's CONFLICT COULD THERE BE? He didn't want to kill her, but someone else did. In the presence of Snoke, Kylo would've had to hide his emotions even after seeing his mother being killed in front of his eyes and feeling it through the force. A perfect setup for his conflict, and one more reason for him to later say "Let the past die". But hey, let's let her fly through space, that's cool.

 

 

 

All in all I'm afraid that Star Wars has completely turned into another mindless franchise pushing out feel-good movies with little emotional depth and lots of self-referential humor. Not excited in the slightest for Episode 9

 

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1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

 

By the way, what did everyone else thought of the joke with the clothes iron being shot like a ship landing on a planet? Another bit I didn't like. The joke itself is inventive and all, but it participates in the uneven tone throughout the film. It's one of those things that make me think: "Why is that even there?"

 

Yeah that was strange. Very strange. And the Chewie scene with the Porgs when he's about to eat one of them. It went on far too long

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45 minutes ago, DigitalfreakNYC said:

I never said "George Lucas raped my childhood."  With this movie, i can firmly say that "Rian Johnson raped my childhood."

 

Oh bore off. You became insufferable hours ago. 

 

On the ignore list you go. 

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Bilbo, if you really think the Thrawn Trilogy is a pile of shit then the Sequel Trilogy films are a few boatloads of shits to use your language.

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

If its not something that appears in the films, it doesn't matter!

 

Star Wars is, first and foremost, a film series.

 Agreed, exactly what i wanted to show with my long posting.

@Holko

Even if you look at these "explanations" it still is incredibly stupid and makes no sense. No government even after disarmarment keeps its military only in one location. Even if they did, a substantial part of the fleet would be flying around in the galaxy to secure order and peace in republic space. They would also have Republic military bases scattered across the galaxy etc. So a substantial part of the Republic fleet must still be out there.

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37 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

 

Oh bore off. You became insufferable hours ago. 

 

On the ignore list you go. 

 

A-fuckin-men!  Star Wars mania always points the way towards a few more meriting the ignore list.  

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1 minute ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

A-fuckin-men!  Star Wars mania always points the way towards a few more meriting the ignore list.  

 

So I guess you put guys who loved TFA on the ignore list as well, yeah?  Or is this about total blind love?

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1 minute ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Got nothing to do with Star Wars mate.  You're just doing a rabid fan thing. 

 

Dunno exactly what that means, "mate."  And Hell yes I'm a rabid fan.  I have Star Wars permanently tattooed on my body!!

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There's no way I'm reading back the thread, so can anyone tell me where Snoke came from and what was his point? He was weirdly eliminated just as he began to emulate Palpatine at his most juicy - just as the presumed chief villain of the piece was becoming entertaining.

 

The biggest problem with this new trilogy is the writing. It just isn't good enough. Everything just feels put together so sloppily because of it. While I'm watching I can almost feel the constant restructuring happening on screen. "Tightness" is nowhere to be seen in this Disney trilogy. 

 

I still enjoyed parts though, but almost all of those were due to Williams' musical flourishes (which were sadly few and far between). 

 

My other main takeaway is confirmation of something I've been banging on about: CRITICS CAN NO LONGER BE TRUSTED. 

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We have no idea where he came from or who he is. His becoming like Palpatine must have been part of why Ben killed him: letting the past die.

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6 minutes ago, Quintus said:

There's no way I'm reading back the thread, so can anyone tell me where Snoke came from and what was his point?

 

Where Snoke came from: will probablybe  explained in some tie-in book, novel, comic book, TV series, video game.

 

What was his point: none, other than being an excuse to make and sell another tie-in book, novel, comic book, TV series, video game.

 

6 minutes ago, Quintus said:

The biggest problem with this new trilogy is the writing. It just isn't good enough. Everything just feels put together so sloppily because of it. While I'm watching I can almost feel the constant restructuring happening on screen. "Tightness" is nowhere to be seen in this Disney trilogy. 

 

 

Yep, it definitely feels that they don't know where they're going/where they want to go. There are many moments in this film where it feels like the writers kept on changing directions, because they suddenly had another idea in mind.

 

The whole Finn/Rose storyline is a good example of that: it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. They go to Canto Bight to find a hacker to weaken/destroy/whatever Snoke's ship, they don't find the one they were looking for so they bring another guy with them, who ends up betraying them and thus does not do what he was meant to do. Finn and Rose's mission is ultimately a failure, which makes the whole thing pointless.

 

6 minutes ago, Quintus said:

My other main takeaway is confirmation of something I've been banging on about: CRITICS CAN NO LONGER BE TRUSTED. 

 

 

What else is new?

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Isn't it strange how peeps on forums still see RT scores as gospel though. Baffling really. 

 

As for Snoke, I think his inclusion is a load of rubbish then. That is, unless they eventually think up this incredibly clever backstory in part 3 for his reason to be (after the fall of the last Empire). But I bet they don't bother. 

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Yoda: I'd say CGI at the beginning, then puppet, which was a nice surprise.

 

that being said, I don't think I've ever seen a better CGI / stop-motion character than Snoke in this movie. Or was he a puppet too? Read about that....

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50 minutes ago, Quintus said:

The biggest problem with this new trilogy is the writing. It just isn't good enough. Everything just feels put together so sloppily because of it. While I'm watching I can almost feel the constant restructuring happening on screen. "Tightness" is nowhere to be seen in this Disney trilogy. 

 

I'd say this is caused by the insurmountable amount of things the writers have to put into the movie to satisfy the demands of Kennedy and her Staff. They basically have to write a movie that...

  • is new but doesn't break too many established rules,
  • is attractive to hardcore fans and casual moviegoers,
  • has characters every ethnicity can identify with,
  • includes some form of love story, although it's completely unnecessary
  • includes interesting creatures for toy production
  • is coherent and leads somewhere, but opens up possibilites beyond the current trilogy
  • adapt certain characters based on their popularity
  • satisfies the director's ideas

 

IMO the writing lacks confidence. They should've focused the movie on the ways of the force, everyone wants to see that. They didn't dare to and sprinkled in side stories which were just afwul

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21 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

I've heard that if you watch it a third time, it suddenly becomes a masterpiece.

Haha no it won't. 

 

The reason I went to see it today again is because I didn't have a perfect cinema experience last night. I wasn't feeling very well and had a really long day. They stopped the film about 10 minutes in because some people were late (?) and they had to restart it. So that delayed it. Plus a headache and 3D don't really work well together.

 

Karol

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29 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

I've heard that if you watch it a third time, it suddenly becomes a masterpiece.

 I can confirm it’s the greatest film ever after 4 viewings. 

 

 

One part of that sentence is true. I’ll let you work out which bit. 

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2 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Got nothing to do with Star Wars mate.  You're just doing a rabid fan thing. 

 

Having seen TFA 12 times in the cinema you’d think a fellow rabid fan could understand someone preferring a different film but apparently not. 

 

I enjoy TFA but it’s an unexceptional Star Wars film for me. I’d rather watch A New Hope

1 minute ago, Quintus said:

I don't really want to have to sit through 2 1/2 hrs of this again. I'll have to take my little boy sometime after Xmas though, so I've got little choice about it. 

 

Genuinely do think it flows better on the second viewing but no matter how many times you see it the Canto Bite stuff always drags. 

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I was quite up for some cool Star Warsy interactions in the Monte Carlo place, but suddenly and very quickly it became the most random and pointless stampede scene ever, somehow managing to be even more forgettable than the mid-movie equivalent from TFA (the rolling monsters). I can definitely feel the committee at work behind these movies. 

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3 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Got nothing to do with Star Wars mate.  You're just doing a rabid fan thing. 

 

It's annoying isn't it? Fanboys latching on to the things they disliked, screaming about commited transgressions against their beloved franchise.

 

It's incredibly annoying.

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Well, I went to the double bill screening of TFA and TLJ at midnight yesterday, and I’ve got some preliminary thoughts. 

 

I‘d forgotten how good a job TFA does of setting up the new characters, and really enjoyed seeing it on a really big screen again, and one with much better sound equipment than I’m used to, so I was really looking forward to TLJ.

 

(Also, in the ca. 30 min gap between films, the cinema seemed to play some film music very quietly - I could just make out “The King of the Golden Hall” from LotR, and “Window to the Past” from PoA, but no SW, oddly 😛)

 

And then TLJ began, and almost from the very beginning I was slightly miffed. Hux and Snoke looked very different to me compared to  TFA, I thought the dialogue was often a bit weird and unnatural, and the humour way off. I also wasn’t a fan of BB8 managing to magically fix fuses or pilot an ATST - now “The droid stole a freighter” doesn’t seem so silly, does it Kylo?) ut essentially, I guess I wasn’t keen on the tone. Wasn’t a fan of Luke’s characterisation, lobbing the lightsaber over his shoulder felt like generic, Marvelesque, out-of-character humour like in Ragnarok. Then Leia had her weird Mary Poppins moment, and that really put me off the film for a bit. The film meandered on a bit perfectly ok for a while, though I wasn’t exactly a fan of Luke’s wanting to kill Kylo in his sleep, or the odd Kylo-Rey force visions (this skill could really have come in handy previously in the saga - not a fan of the continuity there), or even Snoke’s death, which I thought was a bit of a cop-out, and a waste of potential. But the Battle of Crait started so well that by the time Superstructure Chase was quoted, I thought the film might be saved. But then Luke appeared on a horrible green screen background, and I wasn’t a fan of most of what followed. Oh well.

 

So, to boil those incoherent ramblings down to a few issues I had with the film:

 

Previously unencountered force powers (Rey-Kylo communication, Leia flying magic, etc.)

Strange humour and odd, un-Star Wars-y, tone

Inconsistent characterisation of almost all the characters compared with TFA

Also underuse of Finn, who didn’t really seem to get that much to do all film.

 

But yeah, the film generally left a sour taste in my mouth, much as I wanted to like it (and I really did want to like it). Though it made me appreciate TFA as a well made, coherent film with great characterisation all the more! (Despite being a little similar to ANH...)

 

 

 

 

 

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The part where Leia resurrected herself and ethereally glided her way back to safety was an unusual mix of unintentional amusement and spine tingling beauty. It was quite bizarre. I loved that! 

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Just now, Quintus said:

The part where Leia resurrected herself and ethereally glided her way back to safety was an unusual mix of unintentional amusement and spine tingling beauty. It was quite bizarre. I loved that! 

And the score plays a large part in this.

 

Karol

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