The Last Jedi SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

[Ollie 1,059]

ESB>SW>TFA>R1>ROTJ>TLJ>Prequels

 

 

Took the Mrs because she wanted to see it. Didn’t hold up well on second viewing, don’t think she liked it either. Audience was dead too.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

ESB > ANH > TFA > ROTJ > TPM > R1 > ROTS > AOTC > TLJ

 

After a respectably strong start for Disney with TFA, I feel Star Wars has again begun to decline in quality with each new installment. Yes, I rank TLJ last overall. I do consider its acting to be generally better than that in the prequels and R1 and I believe the film to have additional merits as well -- notably in its use of Mark Hamill and John Williams. It just does not hold my interest as well as even the prequels do overall.

 

16 hours ago, Ludwig said:

For me, Star Wars has always been about one thing above all others: imagination.

 

For me as well. Imagination, characters and atmosphere.

 

16 hours ago, Ludwig said:

TLJ reveled in imaginative explorations of the elements laid down in TFA. I, for one, loved the result, but whether one loved it, hated it, or was somewhere in between, I think all would agree that the creative impulse that brought Star Wars into existence was in a different way rekindled to move away from a retelling of the OT stories and bring us something new, which for me has always been the principle behind Lucas' creation.

 

Nope, I completely disagree with everything you said here.

 

TFA wasn't the most imaginative film, especially in terms of story, but its characterizations were leaps and bounds ahead of anything in TLJ -- which was apparently content to coast on nostalgia from previous films instead of making any real effort to endear me to its characters. Truly, the only aspects of this movie that I would call "imaginative" or "explorative" were the designs on Luke's island, the visuals on Crait at the end and the idea of Luke's projection battle with Kylo. I thought this last idea was neat, if problematic continuity-wise. The rest, probably a solid half to two-thirds of this film, I found to be an incoherent bore. And no, 30-45 exciting or thought-provoking minutes, if there were even that many, doesn't make up for the rest of the 155 minute runtime.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

28 minutes ago, Muldoon said:

ESB > ANH > TFA > ROTJ > TPM > R1 > ROTS > AOTC > TLJ

 

After a respectably strong start for Disney with TFA, I feel Star Wars has again begun to decline in quality with each new installment. Yes, I rank TLJ last overall. I do consider its acting to be generally better than that in the prequels and R1 and I believe the film to have additional merits as well, but it does not hold my interest even as well as the prequels do overall. This largely has to do with visual appeal thoughout and John Williams' scores (which I rank very similarly).

 

TFA wasn't the most imaginative film, especially in terms of story, but its characterizations were leaps and bounds ahead of anything in TLJ -- which was apparently content to coast on nostalgia from previous films instead of making any real effort to endear me to its characters. Truly, the only aspects of this movie that I would call "imaginative" or "explorative" were the designs on Luke's island, the visuals on Crait at the end and the idea of Luke's projection battle with Kylo. I thought this last idea was neat, if problematic continuity-wise. The rest, probably a solid half to two-thirds of this film, I found to be an incoherent bore. And no, 30-45 exciting or thought-provoking minutes, if there were even that many, doesn't make up for the rest of the 155 minute runtime, the valiant effort put forth by Mark Hamill and John Williams notwithstanding.

 

It's feedback like this which has scared me off from rushing out to see this entry.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

2 minutes ago, Denise Bryson said:

It's feedback like this which has scared me off from rushing out to see this entry.

 

I'm curious what those of you who wait to see TLJ will think of it in the wake of the divisive reviews. To be fair though, it still seems that most audience members were not as bored with it as I was.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Muldoon said:

 

I'm curious what those of you who wait to see TLJ will think of it after the divisive reviews. To be fair though, it still seems that most audience members were not as bored with it as I was.

 

Fixed.

[Ludwig 1,120]

5 hours ago, Muldoon said:

Nope, I completely disagree with everything you said here.

 

TFA wasn't the most imaginative film, especially in terms of story, but its characterizations were leaps and bounds ahead of anything in TLJ -- which was apparently content to coast on nostalgia from previous films instead of making any real effort to endear me to its characters. Truly, the only aspects of this movie that I would call "imaginative" or "explorative" were the designs on Luke's island, the visuals on Crait at the end and the idea of Luke's projection battle with Kylo. I thought this last idea was neat, if problematic continuity-wise. The rest, probably a solid half to two-thirds of this film, I found to be an incoherent bore. And no, 30-45 exciting or thought-provoking minutes, if there were even that many, doesn't make up for the rest of the 155 minute runtime.

 

Then I hereby retract my statement:

 

21 hours ago, Ludwig said:

whether one loved it, hated it, or was somewhere in between

 

[Chen G. 3,948]

The Force Awakens is, I think, a more polished and certainly better paced film.

 

This film is more ambitious, and much, much more visually striking, but also has some bad composite and CG shots, serious pacing issues throughout, and a lot of the characters don't feel nearly as compelling, which also extends to the level of their acting and dialogue: this includes all the baddies (Snoke, Hux, Phasma), DJ and, to some extent, Rose.

 

I also think a lot of the aesthetic of the set-design are a departure from the worn-down, "used" look of Star Wars, which The Force Awakens did adhere to, and more of a step in the glossy look of the prequels: namely, Canto Bight and Snoke's chambers.

 

I feel like Rian Johnson lacked restraint in terms of action and stakes (to the point that the film is already so climactic with the ramming of Snoke's ship that it feels like it could come to close, which it doesn't) and in terms of his attempts at surprising the audience: really, all you need is one surprising twist at the mid-point (Snoke's demise) and that's it. You don't need to completely subvert expectation in every single turn.

 

I enjoyed it well enough. But I do think people can't help but feel disappointed at what they hoped would be a truly outstanding film, and wasn't.

[Jay 37,336]

TESB=SW>ROTJ>TFA>R1>TLJ>Prequels

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Close, but incorrect.

[mstrox 6,649]

ESB>SW>TLJ>TFA>RO>ROJ>ROTS>TPM>AOTC

[John 2,032]

ESB > SW > TFA > TLJ & ROTJ > R1 > ROTS > TPM > AOTC

[Quintus 5,399]

On 07/01/2018 at 12:21 PM, Chen G. said:

The Force Awakens is, I think, a more polished and certainly better paced film.

 

This film is more ambitious, and much, much more visually striking, but also has some bad composite and CG shots, serious pacing issues throughout, and a lot of the characters don't feel nearly as compelling, which also extends to the level of their acting and dialogue: this includes all the baddies (Snoke, Hux, Phasma), DJ and, to some extent, Rose.

 

I also think a lot of the aesthetic of the set-design are a departure from the worn-down, "used" look of Star Wars, which The Force Awakens did adhere to, and more of a step in the glossy look of the prequels: namely, Canto Bight and Snoke's chambers.

 

I feel like Rian Johnson lacked restraint in terms of action and stakes (to the point that the film is already so climactic with the ramming of Snoke's ship that it feels like it could come to close, which it doesn't) and in terms of his attempts at surprising the audience: really, all you need is one surprising twist at the mid-point (Snoke's demise) and that's it. You don't need to completely subvert expectation in every single turn.

 

I enjoyed it well enough. But I do think people can't help but feel disappointed 

 

Agree with this almost word for word. Well the fuck done. 

 

Now I know what it must feel like to be Jason whenever Disco Stu made a post. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I like both!

[Chen G. 3,948]

Me too, but I'm not a big fan of either. They're just solid entertainment. And again, derivative as it, I do find The Force Awakens to be the better of the two.

 

As for ranking the whole series, as others around here are so keen to do: that's more tricky, for me. I do like Empire Strikes Back the most, that's for sure. Its the only truly outstanding film in the series: a nearly perfectly made motion picture. Then its a toss-up between the original Star Wars and The Force Awakens (the latter being derivative of the former, but also far better acted, and imbued with far more foreboding) and, after that, a toss-up between Return of the Jedi, The Last Jedi and Revenge of the Sith, with Sith being the darkest, The Last Jedi being the most visually striking, and Return of the Jedi being the most conclusive.

 

I like The Phantom Menace significantly less, although I don't hate it by any means, but I do have a strong dislike for Attack of the Clones: easily the worst of the series; makes Phantom Menace look like a masterwork.

[John 2,032]

ROTS is by no means the "darkest" of the franchise. Sure, on paper it seems pretty foreboding, but the acting, dialogue, and practically every other aspect of that movie make it seem much more of an unintentional comedy than the self-important drama it's trying so hard to be.

 

 

[Luka 242]

It's so hard for me to arrange the SW movies in order of preference... Unlike Harry Potter, which I can easily order. 

 

ESB is easily number one. 

After that, I hesitate between ANH, TLJ and TFA. 

Then comes ROTJ

ROTS

R1

AOTC

TPM

 

Yes, I put Clones before Menace. Don't ask me why, I just hate The Phantom Menace.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

23 minutes ago, JohnSolo said:

ROTS is by no means the "darkest" of the franchise. Sure, on paper it seems pretty foreboding, but the acting, dialogue, and practically every other aspect of that movie make it seem much more of an unintentional comedy than the self-important drama it's trying so hard to be.

 

 

 

Not really. All the SW movies are popcorn movies for kids and oozing with cheese. A guy in a gorilla suit, Harrison Ford in the garbage room scene, a flamboyant robot, Carrie Fisher. This is not something unique to the prequels. Sith is pretty damn good.

[John 2,032]

29 minutes ago, Philippe Roaché said:

Not really. All the SW movies are popcorn movies for kids and oozing with cheese.

 

The only non-prequel SW films I can think of off the top of my head that are rather "cheesy" are ROTJ and R1.

 

29 minutes ago, Philippe Roaché said:

This is not something unique to the prequels.

 

The prequels took "cheese" to a whole new level. Jar Jar Binks? Soliloquies on the textures of sand? A drug dealer named "Elan Sleazebaggano"? Every line spoken by Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen?

 

EDIT: Wait, is that you, The Doctor?

[Wojo 2,453]

It's strange that the prequels could be so cheesy when TLJ was the first film with milk. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

1 hour ago, JohnSolo said:

EDIT: Wait, is that you, The Doctor?

 

I think he's a she. And I think she's a changeling.

[Chen G. 3,948]

13 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

ROTS is by no means the "darkest" of the franchise. Sure, on paper it seems pretty foreboding, but the acting, dialogue, and practically every other aspect of that movie make it seem much more of an unintentional comedy than the self-important drama it's trying so hard to be.

 

Yes, there are moments where it is deflated by the acting, but for the most part I think it works. That was very bold of George Lucas to go for. 

 

I mean, killing the younglings? Anakin getting burnt beyond repair? Very out-of-character for Star Wars, in a good way.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

He can't do that! Shoot him! Or something!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Justin, have you seen TLJ?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

 

Not interested.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Although... Padme Amidala might be in it.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Security? Who let fanboys immediately circulate images of Yoda's cameo on social media? I'm sitting there working and I scroll down and there he is.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He tries to blackmail me, I'll drop him down a deeper shaft.

[SF1_freeze 131]

ESB>SW>ROTS>TPM>R1>ROTJ>AOTC>TFA>TLJ

 

The sequel trilogy so far is a big failure. They make absolutely no sense in the context of the starwars universe. After TLJ i can only see them as an incredibly expensive and stupid Starwars parody.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

29 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

ESB>SW>ROTS>TPM>R1>ROTJ>AOTC

 

>TFA>TLJ

 

Hold up. What are you two doing down here?! You shouldn't be down here, it could be dangerous! Wait!

[John 2,032]

2 hours ago, SF1_freeze said:

ESB>SW>ROTS>TPM>R1>ROTJ>AOTC>TFA>TLJ

 

The sequel trilogy so far is a big failure. They make absolutely no sense in the context of the starwars universe. After TLJ i can only see them as an incredibly expensive and stupid Starwars parody.

 

Says the one who has a scene from The Phantom Menace, arguably the worst Star Wars film, as his profile avatar.

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Good is a point of view.

[SF1_freeze 131]

35 minutes ago, JohnSolo said:

 

Says the one who has a scene from The Phantom Menace, arguably the worst Star Wars film, as his profile avatar.

 

 

 

Maybe because it's one of my favorite John Williams scores of all time? Does it click now for you?

You do realize that JWFAN is a filmmusic forum???

 

After the failure and complete trainwreck of TLJ you certainly are in the minority, if you still believe TPM is arguably the worst SW film

Sadly TFA isn't much better now, TLJ didnt bother to fix any of TFA's huge problems and instead made them worse.

 

[Ollie 1,059]

Besides AOTC is still the worst.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Alright, boys. Like the maestro said. Nice and cheery so there's no panic. "The Flag Parade."

[John 2,032]

45 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

After the failure and complete trainwreck of TLJ you certainly are in the minority, if you still believe TPM is arguably the worst SW film

 

Actually, no, you're quite wrong. The Last Jedi was received favorably among the average audience (see: CinemaScore, ComScore, and SurveyMonkey). The only people who are sorely butthurt about the film are the fanboys who say that it didn't "feel like the average Star Wars movie" and the fact that it didn't go exactly the way they had blueprinted it in their heads. You, in fact, are the minority, not I.

 

And even if the majority of fans disliked Last Jedi more than Phantom Menace (which will likely never happen), that wouldn't change the fact that the latter is an objectively poorly made film, with a nonsensical plot, incoherent character focus, and amateurish dialogue. The flaws of Last Jedi, while there are many, pale when compared to the innumerous problems with Phantom Menace.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

No. No! Noo! You will die!

[John 2,032]

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

[James 119]

1. ESB: The movie that defines the series and that manages to keep all the adorers of it together for all these years.

 2. ANH: It's a bit slow at first half and very fast in the second, but it's a good "prelude". It's good matinee movie. And, in my opinion, it's the movie where the characters are most charismatic and relatable in the whole saga. It's good for the heart to watch it.

3. RO: It's more Star Wars than TFA and TLJ. And there's the final scene with Vader... That was wonderful.
4: ROFJ: I accept the Ewoks, but I do not accept Vader's redemption! Okay, it was a beautiful ending.

5. ROTS: Resolves the transition from Anakin to Vader relatively well. It's a bitter end, but it's a lot better than the predecessors. I like Obi Wan in this movie.

6. TFA: I like and do not like this episode. Rey is a good character, Ren too. But, I do not know... Sometimes the references annoy me, sometimes the thought  "does not look like the George Lucas movies" also haunt my head. I'm still in the process of acceptance of this new trilogy.

7. TLJ: The paths that history has taken do not please me. The implication that Rey may have a romantic relationship with Ren, the decharacterization of Luke as the alleged cause of Ren's deviance, even the scant attention given to the new characters that were so important in the movie last and now are treated as mere supporting. But I also have this feeling with ESB (when Han and Leia are strangers to the whole main plot of the film and only later to pass to the center of the events). So...

8. AOCT: Is a psychological trauma to anyone.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I only like the ones with Padme.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I like the ones that you could like by free will, instead of pop culture telling you to do so.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just watching her in these movies again is... intoxicating.

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

11 hours ago, James said:

1. ESB: The movie that defines the series and that manages to keep all the adorers of it together for all these years.

 2. ANH: It's a bit slow at first half and very fast in the second, but it's a good "prelude". It's good matinee movie. And, in my opinion, it's the movie where the characters are most charismatic and relatable in the whole saga. It's good for the heart to watch it.

3. RO: It's more Star Wars than TFA and TLJ. And there's the final scene with Vader... That was wonderful.
4: ROFJ: I accept the Ewoks, but I do not accept Vader's redemption! Okay, it was a beautiful ending.

5. ROTS: Resolves the transition from Anakin to Vader relatively well. It's a bitter end, but it's a lot better than the predecessors. I like Obi Wan in this movie.

6. TFA: I like and do not like this episode. Rey is a good character, Ren too. But, I do not know... Sometimes the references annoy me, sometimes the thought  "does not look like the George Lucas movies" also haunt my head. I'm still in the process of acceptance of this new trilogy.

7. TLJ: The paths that history has taken do not please me. The implication that Rey may have a romantic relationship with Ren, the decharacterization of Luke as the alleged cause of Ren's deviance, even the scant attention given to the new characters that were so important in the movie last and now are treated as mere supporting. But I also have this feeling with ESB (when Han and Leia are strangers to the whole main plot of the film and only later to pass to the center of the events). So...

8. AOCT: Is a psychological trauma to anyone.

 

You could probably skip over AOTC and TLJ without missing much. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

10 hours ago, gkgyver said:

I like the ones that you could like by free will, instead of pop culture telling you to do so.

 

That's the advantage of being exposed to them at an older age, like me. I watched them with some existing knowledge of what they were, but I had no idea what the critical consensus on any of them was when I watched them. I remember watching The Phantom Menace and thinking "well, that wasn't very good", a feeling only exacerbated by watching Attack of the Clones. Things improved significantly with Revenge of the Sith and - in most regards - even more so in the segue to the original Star Wars, and absolutely peaked with Empire Strikes Back. It was in a completely different zone. Than Return of the Jedi worked reasonably well on first viewing, as did The Force Awakens.

 

On subsequent viewings (I always watch a film twice to settle my opinion of it) the first two prequels became much worst, as did Return of the Jedi. I could even see the seams in the original Star Wars, particularly in terms of 70s wierdness and the level of the acting.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

14 hours ago, Denise Bryson said:

I only like the ones with Padme.

 

jesus Marimba. Lovely beast like that runnin' around could put steam in a man's stride.

 

Everyone ranks AOTC at the bottom of their list now? When it came out, it was well received. I still enjoy it.

[John 2,032]

Most people didn't complain about the prequels at the time of their release, because people wanted to like them so bad that it caused the longest period of collective denial in human history.

[mstrox 6,649]

I love AOTC's score - moreso than ROTS, at least.  Across the Stars is among my very favorite film themes of all time, and I think the arena music and Coruscant chase music are all-time greats as well.

 

Movie's garbage.

[Chen G. 3,948]

I'm not overly fond of that score, either.

 

I mean, I really, REALLY like Across the Stars. But one "big theme" isn't enough. You need at least two. Otherwise, you end up flogging one thematic idea throughout the score, and it becomes tiresome. Much like The Force Awakens, I don't believe the audience coming out of Attack of the Clones had remembered anything of the music other than the love theme.

 

As for the movie, its a complete blunder. The pace is sluggish, the characters are not the least bit likable, the romance is the definition of overwrought, the acting is horrible and the effects are extremly dated.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Hayden and Natalie were a bit like Errol Flynn and Olivia de Havilland - amping up the corny acting from a trite script, hammed up by a melodramatic symphonic film score by a "Master of Fanfare".

 

AOTC is misunderstood - it's intended to be poorly acted schlock in the spirit of 30s/40s serials.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Of course we all know the familiar story of The Phantom Menace. The nobility of Qui-Gon fighting to the very end. What I'm interested in are the untold stories. The secrets locked deep within the halls of Skywalker Ranch.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

Most people didn't complain about the prequels at the time of their release, because people wanted to like them so bad that it caused the longest period of collective denial in human history.

 

People bitched and moaned around here!