Jump to content
Jay

SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

Recommended Posts

I just returned from the film so have lots of thoughts...

 

* I loved the surprises and action sequences and the whole Luke the badass sequence at the end.

* I was hoping for a touching sendoff of Leia.  She really looked quite old and tired here but I couldn't tell if that was her character or the person since we know she died after filming.  I wish they could have written in a memorable sendoff.  Some of Luke's dialog seemed to be a sendoff to her but the film didn't use it that way.

* Score was very good and full of memorable moments while sounding like an updated version of Star Wars music utilizing previous fingerprints and themes but fragmenting them or making them generally feel altered.  It certainly doesn't sound "fresh" the way the original trilogy sounded but feels like it is cut from the same cloth.  I wouldn't have minded trumpets being a bit more prominent in the mix (like Star Wars A New Hope).

* I thought the film took quite a few risks which is nice since The Force Awakens is generally criticized for being too safe.  The film had some humorous lines but could have gone further.  Granted that C3PO and R2D2 had virtually no interaction but it would have been very characteristic to have Luke call him 3PO as a nickname since they haven't seen each other in decades and have C3PO be so joyful to see R2 and then immediately resort to pettiness which is part of his character. 

* The new characters needed more memorable quirks. Despite all Lucas's failures as a storyteller, he did know how to create memorable characters.  Rain Johnson should take a page or two from Lucas here.

* It took Vice Admiral Holdo quite a while to intervene when the remaining resistance fleet was getting decimated.  Not very heroic with that sort of pacing.

* To me, I thought the fact that Luke was a hologram at the end was a bit of a cheap shot.  If he was going to die after the hologram, why not have him killed Obi Wan style?  That would have really set up Kylo Ren as far more evil than just a young boy...he killed the two great original heroes AND Snoke!   What a far better set up for a confrontation with a final Rey who has no jedi mentor. 

* The rebels are so fragmented, there is no real alliance however the film ends with a clue that the young will be the next generation of rebels.  Perhaps that is how they will deal with Carrie Fischer's death?  Maybe episode IX is years later after the rebels have rebuilt? 

* How do these armies finance their weaponry?  Wars are financed.  You can't afford to rebuild battleships that you lose so easily at each skirmish.  Maybe this is someone explained in a book or something.  There is a point where it no longer is believable. 

* Why didn't Snoke sense the light saber was going to kill him?  This of course requires that he sensed Kylo's motives which he missed.  So he wasn't really a dark jedi who had jedi skills though he could generally master Kilo Ren and Rey mentally and physically?

* It is still possible that Rey's parents are more important in the grand scheme of things (like Harry Potter's parents).  It isn't really needed in the story to have Rey's parents be noones.  Snoke said he manipulated the visions they both had so that might have been the vision that he made Kylo ren have to manipulate Rey. 

* So both armies have been decimated.  Is episode IX going to be fought with the force and sticks and stones?

* The film did drag during the casino sequence.  Needs to be trimmed by about 10 minutes mostly during that sequence.  Similarly, did this film have a few too many endings ala The Lord of the Rings The The Return of the King? 

* One thing I didn't quite buy, the mop boy at the end dreams of the resistance but he is not oppressed by the first order/empire.  He is oppressed by capitalist profiteers so it didn't quite make his longing to join the fight ring true. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The level of partisanship for this film is incredible. It's prequel levels of hatred and love and it's fascinating.

 

I'll happily be smug about how much I've begun to like it more and more, and I suspect the reasons I like it are identical to the reasons why some absolutely loathed it (the humour, the subversive plot, bold character choices). Here's a great article going into some of Johnson's visual influences and the character motivations. I'm really looking forward to my next viewing now I've unpacked a lot of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

Was this part in the teaser shown in the film... Rey running with Luke's saber?  I really don't recall seeing it but I was looking forward to what it was about.

 

 

Yes, that was when she was fighting with Luke and escalated from sticks to light saber, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/15/2017 at 11:36 PM, Stefancos said:

My guess is Johnson wanted it in there as much as possible, along with a bunch of other OT themes.

 

Williams mentioned in the segment shown before some screenings that Rian asked for specific themes to be included in specific scenes. Of course, some are no brainers like Yoda's appearance, Luke and Leia, etc. I think there was always going to be a lot of references to older themes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is all true bit it just feels quite weird to have a Binary Sunset-like statement of the theme a few minutes before the end...and then another similar statement just before end credits.

 

And,of course, I won't even mention that this is a third film in a row where they end it this way.

 

Hey, I did mention it. ;)

 

Karol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, karelm said:

Yes, that was when she was fighting with Luke and escalated from sticks to light saber, no?

 

No, that shot isn't in the film, nor is the sequence involving Rey in the cave with the saber.

 

There were long-standing rumours (based on filming leaks) that a huge lightsaber battle would occur on Acht-To between Rey & Luke/Ren & Knights of Ren, ending with Rey being captured and Luke being injured. There was also a rumour that Rey would battle a huge sea monster to "prove her worth" to the island. Plus another scene where she is attacked by "glowing blue orbs" in a cave. None of these scenes remotely occur but there's hints that they may have been shot in some released footage (such as Rey in a cave with the saber, Rey running on the beach with the saber ignited, Rian seemingly inspecting an unfinished giant monster model? etc).

 

Perhaps there's some missing scenes involving the ancient Jedi texts, which we mysteriously see on the Falcon right at the end? Did Rey steal these after her confrontation with Luke?

 

TLJ-Rian-03.jpg

 

yoaijao8eqptabudj7rr.jpg

 

img_9026.jpg?fit=1024,576&ssl=1

 

pfskxlcihbvyc2dibvzf.png

 

This is in the film though... different outfit & hair?:

1512511058_530_Rey-with-the-lightsaber-i

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

There was also a rumour that Rey would battle a huge sea monster to "prove her worth" to the island. Plus another scene where she is attacked by "glowing blue orbs" in a cave. None of these scenes remotely occur but there's hints that they may have been shot in some released footage (such as Rey in a cave with the saber, Rey running on the beach with the saber ignited, Rian seemingly inspecting an unfinished giant monster model? etc).

2

 

We also get that one shot early on of Rey walking up a hill after Luke and we see part of some sea creature's side poke out of the water in the background. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cerebral Cortex said:

We also get that one shot early on of Rey walking up a hill after Luke and we see part of some sea creature's side poke out of the water in the background. 

 

Yes, noticed that straight away and considered it confirmation about the sea monster battle rumours. Was surprised it never came back.

 

Luke appeared to have a scene in the cave at some point? Perhaps that whole sequence got trimmed down and focused solely on the Rey vision stuff.

 

the-last-jedi-bts-7.59.43-PM.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone else read the IMDb user reviews? TLJ has been universally slammed there!

 

And yet critics love it? I know the cool kids like to brag that they don't care what reviewers or critics say, but the steep gap between critic and audience response cannot be ignored. There's something weird going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Either Disney is colluding with IMDB and other review sites to give it praise (highly unlikely) or it's a vocal minority venting their dislike of a film that wasn't another Marvel-ous piece of shit.

 

After reading the reviews I think the critics have got a pretty balanced opinion of the film, and after seeing the film there isn't too much to disagree with. This is simply the worst of the worst coming out of their holes to make a racket for five minutes. Fuck 'em, and fuck the critics who hated the the score too!

perhaps, I don't really care much for initial reactions as a good measure of a film's quality. 2 years later and most people's opinions on the Force Awakens were vastly transformed and settled, my gut feeling is that The Last Jedi will age much better ala Empire Strikes Back (obviously not as well), mostly because it's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to things that strike out as unsettling or different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, I really want to like this film, but Luke deserved much much better. From being the hero of the rebellion to a coward is just ridiculous. Lucas would have never done that to Luke. 

 

I would love to see Lucas's original treatment of these episodes. Pretty sure Disney would never release them though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Denise Bryson said:

I suppose the novelisation will clear some shit up. It's released in March.

while interesting, that is not a crutch for a film.

 

what would be more reasonable is that the deleted scenes give greater context, explanation or depth to the events of the movie - or possibly new sequences entirely. and of course, confirmed new music, wooooo!

Just now, Will said:

Looking forward to Plinkett's review. ;)

I avoided the Nerd Crew Stuff because spoilers but I'd like to hear Mike's genuine reaction to the film based off him loving the Force Awakens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@stewdog1Luke went into exile for having believed he failed Kylo Ren, the film does a great job at capturing his broken character. Lucas's treatment would have been something far more clumsy than anything Disney can do to the franchise right now. IMO it's one of the reasons I think Disney's takeover was a good thing, with Kennedy at the helm to make sure it doesn't devolve into shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Arpy said:

@stewdog1Luke went into exile for having believed he failed Kylo Ren, the film does a great job at capturing his broken character. Lucas's treatment would have been something far more clumsy than anything Disney can do to the franchise right now. IMO it's one of the reasons I think Disney's takeover was a good thing, with Kennedy at the helm to make sure it doesn't devolve into shit.

And I think it does an incredibly poor job at trying to capture it. It is completely wrong for his character. I have never ever been pissed off after watching a movie, but this was a first for me. 

 

RJ and Disney just took a mighty dump on Luke in order to "pass the torch". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's fine to disagree with some of the creative choices Rian made, but he clearly had a specific vision and he followed it through. What's fair game are the pacing issues though. The Rose/Finn storyline just does not work and the Rey & Luke/Resistance storylines have a total lack of forward momentum for huge chunks. 

 

The film grinds to a halt during some of these scenes, which is a shame because there could've been a real "ticking clock" aspect to the pacing if a few things were changed.

 

But I've got no issue with his more dramatic, unexpected choices (killing Snoke, killing Luke, killing Phasma, Rey's parents being nobody special). It's a bit rich to spend two years complaining that TFA just remade ANH, then whine and moan when TLJ does things drastically unexpected.

 

I wish there'd been more big shocks. Finn absolutely should've died at the end, that was being handled superbly. Acting, score, visuals all sublime then it's all ruined by another character and an awful line of dialogue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Arpy said:

Either Disney is colluding with IMDB and other review sites to give it praise (highly unlikely) or it's a vocal minority venting their dislike of a film that wasn't another Marvel-ous piece of shit.

 

Yeah, no. If anything, this film was too much like a Marvel film and not enough like a... I don't know... Star Wars film.

 

Where was the tension? The suspense? The menace from the bad guys? Rollicking adventure for the good guys (looking at you Poe & Finn)?

 

Retread or not, TFA gave me enough that I could let myself care for Rey, Finn, Poe and little BB-8. This movie gave me very little of that and just kinda coasted on my love for these characters which was earned in other films.

 

The editing and pacing was a mess -- throughout.

At least half of the film was a complete waste of time -- basically everything Poe, Finn, Rose and Holdo got to do.

The rest was dotted with sub par dialogue and prequel/fan fiction level writing -- space Leia, ghost Yoda, BB-8 inexplicably using his head to fix an X-Wing, BB-8 inexplicably saving Finn & Rose by hijacking an AT-ST.

And boy does the film drag on Canto Bight and again before the characters finally arrive on Crait. The only thing more baffling to me than how this script got approved is that it seems to be loved by fans and critics alike.

 

I wanted to adore this movie and after loving TFA for what it was, I thought that would happen. Thank God we at least got a good JW score and a nice coffee table art book out of the production.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Muldoon said:

The rest was dotted with sub par dialogue and prequel/fan fiction level writing -- space Leia, ghost Yoda, BB-8 inexplicably using his head to fix an X-Wing, BB-8 inexplicably saving Finn & Rose by hijacking an AT-ST.

 

But that is/was Star Wars all along. These are just movies, remember, and how anyone can claim with a straight face that a movie with silly shit like 40 minutes of Jabba's palace and another 90 minutes with an army of furry teddy bears (to single out the bleedingly obvious) is the pinnacle of space fantasy is really beyond me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a feeling... Thinking about the film, that the timeline doesn't make any sense.

 

It seems everything from the opening battle to Holdor's sacrifice is definitely less than 24 hours. Because immideately after the opening battle the rebels hyperjump and are caught immediately again and it is stated they have 18 hours of fuel remaining. So basically Act 1 and Act 2 take place in about 18 hours.

 

But that is intercut with Rey's adventures and it looks like she atleast spent 2-3 days on the island with Luke. So the cross-cutting does not make sense? They crosscut from a storyline that took place in 18 hours and cross cut it with a storyline that took place in 2-3 days.

 

Huge mistake.

 

And after that. I am assuming another 12 hours till the movie's end. Act 3 is basically escaping to the nearby planet and offering a last stand.

 

So the entire plot of the film happened in less than a day and a half. That makes it seem like such a small story. Lessens the scope considerably.

 

And to think that the movie is supposed to start one moment after TFA ended, this was just a one and half day advance over TFA. Again limiting story wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratulations all you idiotic morons, now because of the massive fan backlash to this movie LFL and Disney are going to respond by making the most formulaic, safe, bullshit Star Wars movies for the next 40 years. Fuck the the fans. The completely vain, whiny criticisms of this movie are absolutely laughable, hold zero weight, and are only going to turn Star Wars into a completely uninteresting franchise. They're never going to take risks ever again. Fucking ridiculous. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, YoYoMama said:

Congratulations all you idiotic morons, now because of the massive fan backlash to this movie LFL and Disney are going to respond by making the most formulaic, safe, bullshit Star Wars movies for the next 40 years. Fuck the the fans. The completely vain, whiny criticisms of this movie are absolutely laughable, hold zero weight, and are only going to turn Star Wars into a completely uninteresting franchise. They're never going to take risks ever again. Fucking ridiculous. 

 

Well, that escalated quickly. Sadly, you're probably right, but we already knew that with Captain Mainstream JJ Abrams returning to the helm.

 

It'll still be better than whatever godawful mess Trevorrow was cooking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TLJ seems to get better in the days after watching it, the exact opposite of TFA. Tends to happen to movies which are uneven but with moments of the spectacular. 

 

Like the scene with Luke walking towards and staring down the biggest gun barrel ever, set to the backdrop of a desert-like salt land. It's a classic western trope blown up to ridiculous proportions. And it's awesome. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YoYoMama said:

Congratulations all you idiotic morons, now because of the massive fan backlash to this movie LFL and Disney are going to respond by making the most formulaic, safe, bullshit Star Wars movies for the next 40 years. Fuck the the fans. The completely vain, whiny criticisms of this movie are absolutely laughable, hold zero weight, and are only going to turn Star Wars into a completely uninteresting franchise. They're \never going to take risks ever again. Fucking ridiculous. 

 

I'm not criticising this film as a fan of Star Wars (which I am not). I am criticising it as a fan of good cinema.

 

Its not the in-universe laws and conventions that it suberverts that offend me, its the storytelling laws that it subverts that do: Its not well paced, it forgoes planting-and-payoff for the sake of surprising twists, and it is too overcrowded for all the people involved to feel like fleshed-out characters. Outside of Kylo Ren, the villians in this are atrocious across the board.

 

I still like it, but all these Disney Star Wars entries have been getting too much in the way of glowing praise as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, publicist said:

At least we shouldn't applaud those delivering the exact opposite - though 'Rogue One' is the real offender in that regard. Patently awful.

 

Yes, TLJ does genuinely try a couple of new and interesting things. Some work, some don't. But I'm not expecting an unequivocal new masterpiece from this franchise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, at no point did I have a problem with the originality of the film. Yes, there are walkers, yes there is a master-and-apprentice dynamic, but that's just on the surface: the story as a whole is original.

 

There one or two moments of blatant fan service, but that's it, really.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm happy, as well, and I do like the film, but I'm not going to pretend its the best thing since sliced bread, like some reviews I saw or expecting to see.

 

EDIT: Incoming! Garrett knows his stuff, but I wouldn't call the pace of this film (when taken as a whole) "blistering."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Works on both sides. Though the desperate handwringing and angry shouts are more funny.

38 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Yes, TLJ does genuinely try a couple of new and interesting things. Some work, some don't. But I'm not expecting an unequivocal new masterpiece from this franchise.

 

Dito. Though i guess a cannot even fathom how important these movies are for some here (masterpiece i would not even call ESB). I am just thankful for not being annoyed after handing over my 10€.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In all I have bad to say about this movie, these two new characters were simply just very bad casted.

 

Particularly, Holdo, as it his portrayed in the movie, this character really don't belong to the Star Wars Universe.

 

For the other, I didn't recall his name, they tried to make a "Han Solo" look-a-like scoundrel.  FAIL for me too.

 

It's I think the first Star Wars movie who use "known" actors for secondary roles.  For me that breaks a non-written law of Star Wars.

 

Several non-written laws were broken in this Star Wars.

 

Résultats de recherche d'images pour « holdo »

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Bespin said:

For the other, I didn't recall his name, they tried to make a "Han Solo" look-a-like scoundrel.  FAIL for me too.

 

Oh, that character is an absolute failure!

 

I have to say I find myself surprised yet again, with two critics who are humongous Star Wars fans: Chris Stuckmann on the "populist" end of the spectrum, and Chris Hartwell on the Cerebral end, both presented balanced reviewes of this film and both gave it the good (but dissappointing) A- score.

 

They both share my main criticism, although I was also more critical of some of the humor, as well.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Bespin said:

For the other, I didn't recall his name, they tried to make a "Han Solo" look-a-like scoundrel.  FAIL for me too.

 

He's this films Lando, i thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, YoYoMama said:

Congratulations all you idiotic morons, now because of the massive fan backlash to this movie LFL and Disney are going to respond by making the most formulaic, safe, bullshit Star Wars movies for the next 40 years. Fuck the the fans. The completely vain, whiny criticisms of this movie are absolutely laughable, hold zero weight, and are only going to turn Star Wars into a completely uninteresting franchise. They're never going to take risks ever again. Fucking ridiculous. 

 

😂

 

Btw, what risks ya referring to? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×