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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

He's this films Lando, i thought.

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Lando has an actual internal conflict and an arc.

 

This guy, however...

 

Talking about Lando: I actually watched a review where the guy said he was expecting the hacker Finn and Rose were looking for to be Lando.

 

Now, THAT would have been fan service!

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5 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

I actually think that's a strong possibility!

 

Oh and I completely forgot about Phasma.. What Johnson thinked about this JJ. Abrahams character?

 

She appears 10 minutes at the end of the movie and... bingo, they kill her.

 

HA HA HA

 

Fuck you JJ with your Phasma. LOL

 

More than that, Finn, that is of absolutely NO USE in the movie, Johnson says to Abraham, f*** your shit character I will not make him evolve, it's your job.

 

I'm pretty sure JJ Abrahams will kill Rose (probaly without even showing her at the screen) to answer Johnson.

 

This Trilogy is ruined.

 

Han Solo is dead, Luke is dead.. and the only character they kepts is Leia... but the actress is now dead.

 

:eh:

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4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Same for Snoke, I guess Rian didnt like him either.

 

Characters are underexploited, they are of absolutely no use, and paff, they are killed like they were shit.

 

And Leai that transforms herself in Superwoman... but can't absolutely do anything to help his team to get out the cave.

 

This movie has no sense, from the beginning to the end.

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3 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Kylo Ren is the villain of those films and he's a much more interesting character. If you think about it, killing off Snoke makes perfect sense it terms of Kylo's story.

 

Karol

 

And it makes it impossible for JJ to remake ROTJ for Ep 9.

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1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

 

And it makes it impossible for JJ to remake ROTJ for Ep 9.

Maybe he should remake The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. The First Order embroiled in the taxation dispute? And a forbidden love story between Kylo and Rey. I can see the tagline already.

 

A Knight of Ren should know no peace. Nor serenity. Nor love.

 

Karol

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Where are the Knights of Ren?  Are they the red men that tried to defend the death of Snoke?

 

Also that's the first Star Wars to use a "flashback" scene (and they show us twice I think, to make sure we remember it...I didn't understood that, anyway). 

 

Johnson had no choice here, the story was so badly introduced in TFA, they had to show us what happened.

 

Then again, that's another error in the narrative storyline of this new trilogy.

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I am currently watching a guy reviewing the movie in french, and he says he really felt, as a fan: "Rian Johnson put a finger in my ass. It's a rape."  He feels to have been raped.

 

I feel exactly the same.

 

This movie is full of lacks of good taste and "What the fuck" scenes.

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14 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

The level of partisanship for this film is incredible. It's prequel levels of hatred and love and it's fascinating.

 

I'll happily be smug about how much I've begun to like it more and more, and I suspect the reasons I like it are identical to the reasons why some absolutely loathed it (the humour, the subversive plot, bold character choices). Here's a great article going into some of Johnson's visual influences and the character motivations. I'm really looking forward to my next viewing now I've unpacked a lot of it.

 

I thought it is almost universally loved but not without it's share of flaws. 

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52 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I am currently watching a guy reviewing the movie in french, and he says he really felt, as a fan: "Rian Johnson putted a finger in my ass. It's a rape."  He feels to have been rapped.

 

I feel exactly the same.

 

This movie is full of lacks of good taste and "What the fuck" scenes.

 

Bes, just so you know, it's "put" :)

 

 

The more I read this thread, the more I'm intrigued about the film. I can't wait to see it (next Saturday, probably).

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

I thought it is almost universally loved but not without it's share of flaws. 

 

6 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

What? Not even close.

 

TESB has its flaws, but it doesn't stop it from being "fuck off" brilliant.

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1 hour ago, Remco said:

After reading all of this, I'm almost hesitant to say I actually... loved the movie?

 

A few things:

 

- I agree that the Finn/Rose subplot could've been shorter, however in its defense it nuanced the whole good vs. evil conflict, highlighting this decadent society that couldn't care less about the outcome of the war, and DJ is pretty much an extension of that (although not so necessary). Plus it gives a bit of Rose's backstory. I can see how it fits in the movie conceptually, but its execution is not perfect. However, it provides some awesome Williams music and I loved how Canto Bight really felt alive. For me it didn't detract from the movie enormously. 

 

- Luke's end felt very poignant to me, even more when I watched it the second time. Very emotional climax. I'm sure he'll be around as a force ghost in ep. IX.

 

- Speaking of that, I really hope we'll get a brief explanation about Snoke's origin in IX, perhaps in relation to the Knights of Ren. Didn't Andy Serkis say he was fully informed about his background? Otherwise I'm totally fine with him killed off.

- Also about the rise of the First Order etc. that was discussed a few pages ago, I think it makes sense to have similar consecutive wars with a few decades inbetween... I mean, look at history of our actual world. But it is a pity that JJ excluded the explanation of it all in TFA, I must say.

 

The Finn/Rose subplot should be edited way down and doesn't need to feel so shoe horned in.  Was it really necessary that they parked their spaceship on a beach and were arrested for that?  That was very stupid.  Did it matter at all that they found some other guy who had all the skills they were looking for instead of the master codebreaker?  Just silly plot delays that added nothing.  Definitely the worst part of the film.  Might not have been noticed if it didn't drag out so long and really feel so shoehorned.  I think this film will benefit from a fan re-edit making it about 15 minutes shorter.  The casino might have worked if it had charm but it all together lacked that.  It was just CGI stuff without very uninteresting situation and artificial complexity. 

5 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

I thought he was talking about TLJ?

Who me? Yes TLJ.  Looking at the 85% favorable critical rating I think is very fair. 

I also added this after thought to my initial thoughts:  One thing I didn't quite buy, the mop boy at the end dreams of the resistance but he is not oppressed by the first order/empire.  He is oppressed by capitalist profiteers so it didn't quite make his longing to join the fight ring true or have much power. 

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8 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

I know that karelm was talking about TLJ. I used TESB as an example of what can happen to a film, once it's released: not very well thought of, to bona fide classic.

Hey Richard, if I remember correctly you saw TESB in the theaters in 1980, right?  I might be thinking of someone else.  My memories were TESB were VERY well received by the critics and audience.  People couldn't even get their heads around their thoughts they were so emotionally involved.  After seeing it, we needed answers immediately so spent the night debating possibilities and ramifications and how could Obi Wan have lied...etc.  It was an emotional and theatrical stunner from the start and not a slow burn.  There was a feeling that it lacked the innocent joy of the first film but that is an opinion that is unchanged.

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

Oh and I completely forgot about Phasma.. What Johnson thinked about this JJ. Abrahams character?

 

She appears 10 minutes at the end of the movie and... bingo, they kill her.

 

HA HA HA

 

Fuck you JJ with your Phasma. LOL

 

More than that, Finn, that is of absolutely NO USE in the movie, Johnson says to Abraham, f*** your shit character I will not make him evolve, it's your job.

 

I'm pretty sure JJ Abrahams will kill Rose (probaly without even showing her at the screen) to answer Johnson.

 

This Trilogy is ruined.

 

Han Solo is dead, Luke is dead.. and the only character they kepts is Leia... but the actress is now dead.

 

:eh:

 

Go easy on the booz, mate. Responding to a thread while drunk isn't a good idea...trust me I know.

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I'm sure it had its very determined hater community because it was different from Star Wars, there just wasn't an Internet where they could shout their opinion to the whole world and pull scores down.

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6 minutes ago, karelm said:

Who me? Yes TLJ.  Looking at the 85% favorable critical rating I think is very fair. 

 

85%? Where? Is this another one of those "Hey, look, that's what it says on Rotten Tomatoes so it must be true" things? Yeah, not interested in that. I don't think it reflects anything.

 

Plus, "universally loved" suggests almost a unanimous opinion/consensus on the film. There clearly isn't one here.

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27 minutes ago, Holko said:

I'm sure it had its very determined hater community because it was different from Star Wars, there just wasn't an Internet where they could shout their opinion to the whole world and pull scores down.

 

Perhaps but I am just responding with my first hand experience that there was no slow burn.  It hit like a ton of bricks right away and was very overwhelming experience right away.   Also adding to the impact was you couldn't re-watch Star Wars (VCR's didn't exit) so all you had was your memory of how the events transpired.

 

25 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

85%? Where? Is this another one of those "Hey, look, that's what it says on Rotten Tomatoes so it must be true" things? Yeah, not interested in that. I don't think it reflects anything.

 

Plus, "universally loved" suggests almost a unanimous opinion/consensus on the film. There clearly isn't one here.

Yep, metacritics.

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14 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

The Finn/Rose subplot should be edited way down and doesn't need to feel so shoe horned in.  Was it really necessary that they parked their spaceship on a beach and were arrested for that?  That was very stupid.  Did it matter at all that they found some other guy who had all the skills they were looking for instead of the master codebreaker?  Just silly plot delays that added nothing.  Definitely the worst part of the film.  Might not have been noticed if it didn't drag out so long and really feel so shoehorned.  I think this film will benefit from a fan re-edit making it about 15 minutes shorter.  The casino might have worked if it had charm but it all together lacked that.  It was just CGI stuff without very uninteresting situation and artificial complexity. 

 

Good points, but I did like the location a lot. Stuff like the Rathars in TFA felt way more unnecessary to me.

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This film's pacing issues go deeper than the Canto Bight sequence, although it is the most egregious of them all. However, even in the first act there's too much time spent with the death scene of Rose's sister, with the opening "prank call" joke, with all the exposition, etc....

 

In the first half of the second act, we get the Canto Bight sequence, and in the second half we get such an exhilarating action set-piece on Snoke's ship that the third act almost feels redundant. And after the actual third act, we get two scenes that would feel more in-place during and after a credit sequence in a Marvel film: one of social mingling on the Falcon, and one with those orphans.

 

Its all just too much. If there are pacing issues in just one of the act (especially the first act) one tends to overlook them. When they plague every part of the narrative, that's another deal all together.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

This film's pacing issues go deeper than the Canto Bight sequence, although it is the most egregious of them all. However, even in the first act there's too much time spent with the death scene of Rose's sister, with the opening "prank call" joke, with all the exposition, etc....

 

In the first half of the second act, we get the Canto Bight sequence, and in the second half we get such an exhilarating action set-piece on Snoke's ship that the third act almost feels redundant. And after the actual third act, we get two scenes that would feel more in-place during and after a credit sequence in a Marvel film: one of social mingling on the Falcon, and one with those orphans.

 

Its all just too much. 

 

But the third act is a very well earned Luke as bad ass sequence.  It felt like helm's deep as the fight got more and more desperate.  I loved it.  I also loved the first act with great story threads.  It really is that unnecessary third story thread that is the worst for me.

 

Question - how do the writers approach writing their chapter of the saga?  So JJ Abrams takes on IX but did he already know while on VII that snoke would die in episode VIII because they are all telling the same grand story or does each one pick up where the previous left off rather than they are all working towards the same story direction?  Has anyone read or heard a response to this?  I assume it is sort of like episodic television where the specific details are filled in by the writer of that episode however there is a general plot outline that they must all adhere to.

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9 minutes ago, karelm said:

But the third act is a very well earned Luke as bad ass sequence.  It felt like helm's deep as the fight got more and more desperate.  I loved it.  I also loved the first act with great story threads.  It really is that unnecessary third story thread that is the worst for me.

 

It actually felt a lot like Helms' deep and a bit like Minas Tirith, as well. To the point that I believe it was a direct influence on Rian's choices. 

 

But I can't help but feel like the effectiveness of that set-piece in undermined by the previous action scene: you can only supply an audience with a certain amount of excitement and action before they become accustomed and saturated by it. Its like the truck chase in The Dark Knight dwarfing the final action scene.

 

9 minutes ago, karelm said:

Question - how do the writers approach writing their chapter of the saga?  So JJ Abrams takes on IX but does he already know ahead of time snoke would die in episode VIII because they are all telling the same grand story or does each one pick up where the previous left off rather than they are all working towards the same story direction?  Has anyone read or heard a response to this?

 

There's no grand scheme. Each script is an independent work informed only by what came before it. The only way to plan a trilogy like this in advance is to write and shoot it all simultaneously, Jackson-style.

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20 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

It actually felt a lot like Helms' deep and a bit like Minas Tirith, as well. To the point that I believe it was a direct influence on Rian's choices.

 

But I can't help but feel like the effectiveness of that set-piece in undermined by the previous action scene: you can only supply an audience with a certain amount of excitement and action before they become accustomed and saturated by it. Its like the truck chase in The Dark Knight.

 

Yep, that's the problem. There's no time to breathe in-between the whole "destruction of the First Order fleet/duel between Rey and Ren/duel between Finn and Phasma" sequence and the battle of Crait, and thus there's no build-up to it. It just relentless, and as a result, the battle itself doesn't make much of an impact.

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Ok..accepting this new trilogy story as a separate entity from the UE story, i wanted to like this film and see where all the story went... and though i liked some scenes and situations  and designs... this film dissapointed me more than TFA....it's like too slow...that ome weird story choices.

There was something in the cinematography or editing not quite right. It didnt look like a Star Wars film...were there ay camera/scene swipes, i think they got rid of them in Rogue one with the episodes need them. I dont remember any great williams 'swipe' moment so thats why i dont remember any of these scene changes.
The Canto bight scenes could have worked in TFA instead of Kanata's castle...but having this mission in the middle of a battle, complex escape, and complex inflitration if the main ship... its too easy to be believable..
Leia's resurrection was corny, but it was made great thanks to Williams, and at least they show Leia using the force, which is something i needed to see (she may have had kind of jedi confrontation with kylo ren in epIX...)
I loved hearing 'Luke & Leia'..after Williams not using it in ROTS. Lovely scene.
I liked some of the plot twists (snoke's death, Ren's semi redemption, Rey's possible turn...). Liked how Snoke dismissed Kylo's mask (though it is something he should have said before...if he didnt like it..)
I dont like that the main story is being written as they go...it feels incomplete and makes it compulsory to read other media..which i dont do anymore so i dont have a clue of half the things...


Just for the record (as i have seen some comments on these things):
'Force projection' was old news, and i suspected as much when luke appeared in a younger self (as everyone remembered him before dissapearing)...and with anakin's saber (which was broken and impossible for him to have)..
Star wars ships have 'star trek' shield bubbles...but we dont see them usually. the other time you could see it was in TPM when anakin's nabbo fighter goes online inside the droid command ship. Also to some extent in ROTJ, when one tie interceptor crashes in home one.


The score is rather a pastiche...but i loved the inclusion of all the old themes. Can't wait for the complete score release in 2030. :(

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I also loved the WWII like bombing run designs in the early battle. A nod to Lucas which based star was dogfights in the WWII too :).

 

Those bombers should have been a little bit more tough, At that speed and against star destroyers they dont really have a chance.

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4 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I also loved the WWII like bombing run designs in the early battle. A nod to Lucas which based star was dogfights in the WWII too :).

 

Those bombers should have been a little bit more tough, At that speed and against star destroyers they dont really have a chance.

 

...which is historically accurate.  B-17 bombers were sitting ducks during World War II even with armament and turrets.  It wasn’t until 1944 that fighter escorts were deployed to accompany them on their missions and dominate the skies against the Luftwaffe. By that time, thousands of airmen had perished over the skies of Europe.  So the agile space superiority x-wings would need to escort the bombers as they did here.

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13 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

'Force projection' was old news

 

Since when, exactly?

 

7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Fake-Palpatine chastising Ren for wearing that pretend Vader helmet was great.

 

Felt too meta. Basically the filmmaking team saying: "OK, look, we're acknowledging the fact you guys said he looks like a Vader wannabe!"

 

It feels like they're simply not assuming the choices they made (or the guys that came before them made).

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18 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

There was something in the cinematography or editing not quite right. It didnt look like a Star Wars film

 

Its the use of long takes that is unusual for Star Wars. The opening shot is typical: pan down from the stars to an imperial ship in wide shot. Only here, the "camera" "pans" towards said ship. It happens again inside the ships, on Luke's island, etc...

 

18 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I loved hearing 'Luke & Leia'..after Williams not using it in ROTS. Lovely scene.

 

Now that was an excellent scene!

 

18 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I dont like that the main story is being written as they go...it feels incomplete and makes it compulsory to read other media..which i dont do anymore so i dont have a clue of half the things...

 

That's true of each of the Star Wars trilogies and, in fact, of any film series that whose features aren't all shot simultaneously.

 

18 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

'Force projection' was old news, and i suspected as much when luke appeared in a younger self (as everyone remembered him before dissapearing)...and with anakin's saber (which was broken and impossible for him to have).

 

Its not a question of this ability existing, its about how its not set-up in the narrative. You could argue that its an extension of the way Rey and Kylo "connect" but that doesn't quite cut it: EVERYONE in the scene can see Luke.

 

And again, if you are looking at it from the point of view of a multi-film narrative, told in the order of the episodes, than introducing wholly new abilities in the eighth episode can come off as a deus-ex-machina.

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Just now, BloodBoal said:

 

Since when, exactly?

 

 

Felt too meta. Basically the filmmaking team saying: "OK, look, we're acknowledging the fact you guys said he looks like a Vader wannabe!"

 

It feels like they're simply not assuming the choices they made (or the guys that came before them made).

No, I don't think it is. It was already well established in the previous films how insecure he feels this scene was a great pay off to that.

 

Karol

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3 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

...which is historically accurate.  B-17 bombers were sitting ducks during World War II even with armament and turrets.  It wasn’t until 1944 that fighter escorts were deployed to accompany them on their missions and dominate the skies against the Luftwaffe. By that time, thousands of airmen had perished over the skies of Europe.  So the agile space superiority x-wings would need to escort the bombers as they did here.

Yeah. I think this bombers would have fittem more for a planet ground attack. any way i think that since there have been a constant conflict for over 50 years one would think that someone could have designed small capital ship shields to fit these bombers... well at least only one packed enough firepower to destrone one entire ship.

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20 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I dont like that the main story is being written as they go...it feels incomplete and makes it compulsory to read other media..which i dont do anymore so i dont have a clue of half the things...

 

I am not sure this is accurate.  I am trying to find a specific interview or screening video but I understand Rain has said the stories were written simultaneously but I am looking for sources.  A friend attended the Directors Guild screening where Rain was there for an hour of questions from directors and writers to see how it was addressed.

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15 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

No, that shot isn't in the film, nor is the sequence involving Rey in the cave with the saber.

 

There were long-standing rumours (based on filming leaks) that a huge lightsaber battle would occur on Acht-To between Rey & Luke/Ren & Knights of Ren, ending with Rey being captured and Luke being injured. There was also a rumour that Rey would battle a huge sea monster to "prove her worth" to the island. Plus another scene where she is attacked by "glowing blue orbs" in a cave. None of these scenes remotely occur but there's hints that they may have been shot in some released footage (such as Rey in a cave with the saber, Rey running on the beach with the saber ignited, Rian seemingly inspecting an unfinished giant monster model? etc).

 

Perhaps there's some missing scenes involving the ancient Jedi texts, which we mysteriously see on the Falcon right at the end? Did Rey steal these after her confrontation with Luke?

 

TLJ-Rian-03.jpg

 

yoaijao8eqptabudj7rr.jpg

 

img_9026.jpg?fit=1024,576&ssl=1

 

pfskxlcihbvyc2dibvzf.png

 

This is in the film though... different outfit & hair?:

1512511058_530_Rey-with-the-lightsaber-i

 

Thanks for the breakdown.  I didn't realize she was actually on the beach so maybe it isn't as exciting as I imagined.  I also read a supposed spoiler that involved a funeral for Han Solo but given the film begins immediately after TFA, there's no time for mourning really so it may have been a false rumor.

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I suppose something involving Rey in the Crait finale must have been cut, because the entire sequence is shockingly lacking her presence. Even when we see the Falcon it isn't perfectly clear that Rey is there until it cuts (for a split-second) to her aiming the guns.

 

4 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Well it was part of the old EU and roleplaying games...

That Power exists on the game Mysteries of the sith.

 

If a plot point doesn't appear in any of our episodes, it does not exist!

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Anyway, everytime a new force power is shown in the film we dont really get an explanation so this one does not need one either.

I didnt understand Luke's death, it seems they did not do a kenobi's death just for the sake of not repeating. which is fine...but luke could have died in the next film anyway... or shown us he was very old or sick before....

 

he is going to be a jedi ghost so no problem there...

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10 hours ago, publicist said:

But that is/was Star Wars all along. These are just movies, remember, and how anyone can claim with a straight face that a movie with silly shit like 40 minutes of Jabba's palace and another 90 minutes with an army of furry teddy bears (to single out the bleedingly obvious) is the pinnacle of space fantasy is really beyond me.

 

Since ROTJ, you mean. TFA toned a lot of that down and gave me hope it would stay down. Oh well.

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9 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Anyway, everytime a new force power is shown in the film we dont really get an explanation so this one does not need one either.

I didnt understand Luke's death, it seems they did not do a kenobi's death just for the sake of not repeating. which is fine...but luke could have died in the next film anyway... or shown us he was very old or sick before....

 

he is going to be a jedi ghost so no problem there...

Did he die out of exhaustion? Or maybe he was actually killed by Kylo in that scene? It's not really exactly clear but I like it this way. And no, Padme's death was still stupid.

 

1 minute ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I also was shicked when the trailer music march appeared in the film. So they dropped a Williams piece on us and nobody noticed (like jedi steps last year)

I know, sneaky bastards.

 

Karol

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