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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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2 hours ago, Holko said:

I'm sure it had its very determined hater community because it was different from Star Wars, there just wasn't an Internet where they could shout their opinion to the whole world and pull scores down.

 

A boring and wholly unfounded opinion. Most of us wanted to love it. I personally very much enjoyed TFA, redundant though much of it was.

 

I've just realized something else wrong with the timeline of this trilogy. In TFA, half the galaxy doesn't even seem to take the First Order all that seriously -- that's apparently why "the Resistance" is so small. I guess this was all supposed to change when the bad guys took out 5 key republic planets with the Starkiller. The opening crawl for TLJ says that the First Order has basically taken over the whole galaxy now, with only the tiny Resistance to oppose them... But no time has passed between the two films, so how could they possibly have conquered everything? Doesn't make a lick of sense.

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32 minutes ago, crocodile said:

 

Did he die out of exhaustion? Or maybe he was actually killed by Kylo in that scene? It's not really exactly clear but I like it this way. And no, Padme's death was still stupid.

 

I know, sneaky bastards.

 

Karol

 

He died because he was heart broken that his mom, Padme, died for no explainable reason during his birth.  He simply gave up on the will to live according to the EU.  Nah, I just assumed its like all people with wizardry power, it takes a great physical toll out of them and here he used his great powers to the maximum. That's why when you have two equally strong force combatants like Kylo Ren and Rey, they strain to get the upper hand and usually get knocked out briefly.

 

starwars wikia says: Force Body was a type of Force technique which allowed any Force-sensitive to push their body's endurance past a safe limit, ignoring and sacrificing their health and well-being in order to sustain their connection to the Force. Very powerful connection to the Force was required for this ability's use. With this, Jedi could live through what would otherwise kill them... Luke Skywalker displayed the ability to astral project across the galaxy, sending a lifelike image of himself to another planet. This projection was so realistic that Kylo Ren could not detect the deception until he tried and failed to strike Luke down with a lightsaber. However, the strain of creating such a projection proved to be fatal for Luke.

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33 minutes ago, Muldoon said:

Since ROTJ, you mean. TFA toned a lot of that down and gave me hope it would stay down. Oh well.

 

Yeah. And it was competent but fucking boring. In between, the prequels - so it's a fair question what this elusive legacy is these movies allegedly carry that makes the new one so offensive.

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26 minutes ago, karelm said:

(...)  This projection was so realistic that Kylo Ren could not detect the deception (...)

 

What is wrong for me is that it worked also on C-3PO.

 

Anyway, this wink was perhaps the only best scene of all this movie.

 

Maxi big da Force.

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11 minutes ago, publicist said:

Yeah. And it was competent but fucking boring. In between, the prequels - so it's a fair question what this elusive legacy is these movies allegedly carry that makes the new one so offensive.

 

I think that legacy is elusive because fans were drawn to these films for wildly disparate reasons. Because of this and because of its ungodly large audience, each new installment will offend somebody. I suspect the biggest problems with this particular outing are the same as those of any modern franchise blockbuster -- it doesn't take itself seriously enough. Or it takes itself seriously at the wrong moments. That may not be a fair complaint to make, but fan complaints, just like the fan praise aimed at this movie, are largely emotionally based and have little to do with true objectivity.

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7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The OT is held in a ridiculously high regards by many people.

I'm sentimental towards them myself. But its all just engrossing space pulp, right?

 

Yeah. I've only really watched them a couple of years back. They're not as big a deal around here. The original Star Wars is a bit silly and weird, which is to say nothing of Return of the Jedi. Really, Empire Strikes Back remains the only true masterpiece of the whole series: outside of C3PO, its literally a film of no meaningful flaw.

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On 12/17/2017 at 11:12 AM, Stefancos said:

The OT is held in a ridiculously high regards by many people.

I'm sentimental towards them myself. But its all just engrossing space pulp, right?

 

I think the historic context is also very important.  It came out of nowhere and changed everything.  It was so youthful and pitch perfect entertainment with absolutely no cynicism at a time full of that...so was extremely refreshing entertainment.  Also unusual at the time was the false ending.  It could have ended with the escape from the death star and been a very satisfying movie but then add this incredibly exciting space battle and the edge if your seat up hill battle culminating with that last second heroics of Han Solo.  It is hard to explain why it is so great without the context.  It was probably the most visually rich world building seen in decades (Maybe since Wizard of Oz).  After all this, the sequel (quite unusual at the time) deepened all the characters, the mythology, the stakes, the drama.  With the PT, this was pretty routine.  Now it is formulaic so hard to come out of nowhere with these types of films so the expectation is just different.

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8 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

What is wrong for me is that it worked also on C3-PO.

 

Anyway, this wink was perhaps the only best scene of all this movie.

 

Well it worked on Leia too since they had a conversation and she is force sensitive and didn't sense it. 

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3 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Hey nobody talk about the ridiculous scene were Chewbacca tries to eat a Porg.

 

The porgs and caretakers didn't really annoy me, but there was way too much of them. Luke was funny enough on his own.

 

I get that they wanted the island to feel real, with fauna, but the caretakers alone would have sufficed.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

The porgs and caretakers didn't really annoy me, but there was way too much of them. Luke was funny enough on his own.

 

I get that they wanted the island to feel real, with fauna, but the caretakers alone would have sufficed.

 

Obviously porgs is merchandising.  I am just glad they weren't over used.

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1 minute ago, Muldoon said:

I think that legacy is elusive because fans were drawn to these films for wildly disparate reasons. ... That may not be a fair complaint to make, but the complaints, just like the praise aimed at this movie, are largely emotionally based.

 

But that's a cop-out - you can end all discussion on such relativist standpoint.

 

Basically it's just a movie, and it also was just a movie when ESB hit cinemas and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not made for a museum and also not too please every ardent fan and their often outlandish expectations (i also assume many of the complaints can be addressed to wildly different decisionmakers, since not for a second i believe what transpired is R. Johnson's 'singular' vision).

 

It's not a brilliant film by any stretch of imagination but given what passes for entertainment - often in excess of 2 hours - at the multiplexes today i can imagine much worse. Even TFA was a passable watch, but i was really pissed off by its fearful denial of anything 'offending', which made for an OK-but-boring experience ('Rogue One' upped the ante, sadly). 

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56 minutes ago, karelm said:

 This projection was so realistic that Kylo Ren could not detect the deception until he tried and failed to strike Luke down with a lightsaber. However, the strain of creating such a projection proved to be fatal for Luke.

Well i think kylo was so blinded by hatred that he didnt think it could be a deception.

As i said, he should have noticed Luke was wearing the lightaber he had previously broken in his fight with rey....

 

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1 minute ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Well i think kylo was so blinded by hatred that he didnt think it could be a deception.

As i said, he should have noticed Luke was wearing the lightaber he had previously broken in his fight with rey....

 

Who said he can't have another lightsaber?

 

Karol

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1 minute ago, crocodile said:

Who said he can't have another lightsaber?

 

Karol

He had.. the green one. which i dont know why he wasnt wearing tha.

Another lightsaber equal to anakin's? a jedi does not crave that kind of nostalgia...

 

 

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I really need to see the film again because I feel l missed a lot of details.  For instance, apparently there was a Force bubble around Leia when she was floating in space which also protected her from the blast.  I didn't notice that.  She was white and looked dead to me but I knew she really wasn't based on a few shots trailer shots.

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1 minute ago, Luke Skywalker said:

He had.. the green one. which i dont know why he wasnt wearing tha.

Another lightsaber equal to anakin's? a jedi does not crave that kind of nostalgia...

 

 

I mean he had a lot of spare time on the island. He might have built 45 of those for all we know. ;)

 

Karol

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37 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

Did DJ die in the film or assumed to have died? 

 

Not quite. One could be made to assume that he died during said suicide run. Although we don't see a shot of his body, which robs us of the satisfaction of seeing him dead.

 

The aforementioned suicide run, by the way, conveniently killed most of the bad guys and none of the good guys. I have no problem with contrivance. In a screenplay, contrivance is fine, so long as it acts against the characters. But here...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

The OT is held in a ridiculously high regards by many people.

I'm sentimental towards them myself. But its all just engrossing space pulp, right?

 

So now we're rewriting history and pretending the OT didn't have a big influence on (blockbuster) cinema, sci-fi and pop culture as a whole?

 

Now it's just: "They were fun movies and that's the end of it"?

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1 hour ago, publicist said:

 

It's not a brilliant film by any stretch of imagination but given what passes for entertainment - often in excess of 2 hours - at the multiplexes today i can imagine much worse. Even TFA was a passable watch, but i was really pissed off by its fearful denial of anything 'offending', which made for an OK-but-boring experience ('Rogue One' upped the ante, sadly). 

 

Exactly.  That they're stepping ever so slightly out of the box is enough for me to give it the benefit of the doubt.  Whereas the pitiful diehards are torn up about it.

 

It's like good poetry.  It doesn't rhyme.

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8 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

So now we're rewriting history and pretending the OT didn't have a big influence on (blockbuster) cinema, sci-fi and pop culture as a whole?

 

Since when is that a badge of honour or quality in itself? 

9 minutes ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

It's like good poetry.  It doesn't rhyme.

 

Now wait for Abrams to correct that.

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9 minutes ago, publicist said:

Since when is that a badge of honour or quality in itself? 

 

The influence on pop culture aside (which isn't an indication of quality, you won't find me arguing about that), in order for a movie to have an influence on cinema and a whole genre, it gotta have some qualities, surely, no? Whether in terms of production design, special effects, music, narrative...

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Well, Michael Bay's Transformers is said to have a significant influence on the industry. So that's not necessarily an indication of greatness, either.

 

Jeremy Jahns is surprisingly critical and actually makes a lot of good points:

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Well, Michael Bay's Transformers is said to have a significant influence on the industry.

 

Yeah, but was it because it made an impact on (aspiring) filmmakers, or because it simply made a lot of money and studios thought they should replicate that formula? I'd argue it was more of the former with SW and more of the the latter with Transformers.

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19 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

The influence on pop culture aside (which isn't an indication of quality, you won't find me arguing about that), in order for a movie to have an influence on cinema and a whole genre, it gotta have some qualities, surely, no? Whether in terms of production design, special effects, music, narrative...

 

Is being a fun matinee movie arriving at that right moment in time not enough? I just don't buy all the inflated sense of 'importance' attached to these movies, especially when that huge impact did more harm than good (i'm aware that people cite SW as being a revelation to them, less so that we got a boatload of great new movies out of it, Simpsons and South Park parodies aside). For Star Wars, like for any other commercial franchise, every next sequel = the law of diminishing returns, as far as the movies go. I bet there are much more creative and brave fan-written novels, comics or what have you than what actually transpired on screen since the 80's.

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2 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

It's just your DDR education speaking, repeating what your teachers taught you: "Don't be fooled! Those Krieg der Sterne movies are nothing more than American entertainment trash!" because they came from the side of the enemy.

 

And because they proudly wore 'wars' (plural!) in their title. 

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6 hours ago, karelm said:

Hey Richard, if I remember correctly you saw TESB in the theaters in 1980, right?  I might be thinking of someone else.  My memories were TESB were VERY well received by the critics and audience. 

 

You are right, karelm; I did see TESB in 1980 (several times, in fact) and in 1982 (as a double-bill), 1984 (as a triple-bill) and 1997, as a (f**ked-up, but not by much SE).

I did not read any USA reviews, but the UK critics had a muted response. Although people flocked to see it, those same people didn't go back again and again, as they had with ANH. Most people liked it, but it didn't give them a rush, as the first film had, and, as such, it was considered a disappointment.

Personally, I liked it a lot, and I grew to understand, and absorb it, through repeated viewings. Sometimes it takes a concerted effort in order to appreciate something as multi-layered as TESB.

TESB was a little like ROTLA, which, when it was released in the UK, played second fiddle to FYEO, all Summer, and took a long time to build up an audience. I saw ROTLA (for the 6th time) in London, in the Summer of 1982, where it had been playing for over one year. These days, of course, that would never happen.

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1 hour ago, Romão said:

As much as I was enjoying Snoke in this film and as much as would like to see more of him, I don't think how you could have him in Episode IX without reprising the whole Emperor/Luke/Vader sequences in ROTJ.

 

The character has served his purpose. It's much more exciting to see Kylo Ren as the supreme chanceller, to see how such power will be held by such a volatile personality. Having Snoke being killed by Kylo Ren was the dramatically fulfilling choice regarding the character in the wider perspective of the trilogy

 

Exactly. It wasn't a random decision to off him. Killing him was further defining Kylo's character and role. Still a bold choice of course. 

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9 hours ago, karelm said:

Question - how do the writers approach writing their chapter of the saga?  So JJ Abrams takes on IX but did he already know while on VII that snoke would die in episode VIII because they are all telling the same grand story or does each one pick up where the previous left off rather than they are all working towards the same story direction?  Has anyone read or heard a response to this?  I assume it is sort of like episodic television where the specific details are filled in by the writer of that episode however there is a general plot outline that they must all adhere to.

 

To answer my own question definitively, Rain said he was terrified of mucking up the character threads like telling Kathy Kennedy Luke would die in his film.  He said it was very important that he was collaborating with the owners of the story line so he moved up to San Francisco and told them his story ideas throughout the process.  He was challenged and had to have his story ideas hold up on screen to the holders of the legacy even if "uncomfortable things" happen to our beloved characters.  Basically this wasn't just a writer in a vacuum but was strongly involved with the property owners. He worked to JJ Abrams directly from the start who showed him the script before the Force Awakens was released.  He also worked with the cast who had their own opinions.  Mark Hamill asked why can't certain aspects of my character be revealed in episode IX but the collective writers disagreed with the story thread. 
"Every character gets pushed out of their comfort zone".  Hamill said "I was just glad they weren't just blowing up another death star".  They praised the very clever editing (Kylo Ren's light saber makes a sound but Luke's doesn't which I didn't notice plus the lack of foot prints).  The most important aspect is the story aspects are developed in a community of the story owners.

 

EDIT: The film makers flat out stated John Williams's score was such a major part in complex scenes to figuring out what should happen (like visual effects) "once we got the early soundtrack to the scene, we understood the tonal and emotional impact of the sequence because of Williams's score".  No surprise but JW is Star Wars.  They mention referencing "Star Wars Legends" which I don't know anything about if someone can explain?  
"That is part of the joy of working with Lucas" ...there is a "story group" that is so strongly steeped in the Star Wars mythology to make sure the story fits. 

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2 hours ago, karelm said:

 

To answer my own question definitively, Rain said he was terrified of mucking up the character threads like telling Kathy Kennedy Luke would die in his film.  He said it was very important that he was collaborating with the owners of the story line so he moved up to San Francisco and told them his story ideas throughout the process.  He was challenged and had to have his story ideas hold up on screen to the holders of the legacy even if "uncomfortable things" happen to our beloved characters.  Basically this wasn't just a writer in a vacuum but was strongly involved with the property owners. He worked to JJ Abrams directly from the start who showed him the script before the Force Awakens was released.  He also worked with the cast who had their own opinions.  Mark Hamill asked why can't certain aspects of my character be revealed in episode IX but the collective writers disagreed with the story thread. 
"Every character gets pushed out of their comfort zone".  Hamill said "I was just glad they weren't just blowing up another death star".  They praised the very clever editing (Kylo Ren's light saber makes a sound but Luke's doesn't which I didn't notice plus the lack of foot prints).  The most important aspect is the story aspects are developed in a community of the story owners.

 

EDIT: The film makers flat out stated John Williams's score was such a major part in complex scenes to figuring out what should happen (like visual effects) "once we got the early soundtrack to the scene, we understood the tonal and emotional impact of the sequence because of Williams's score".  No surprise but JW is Star Wars.  They mention referencing "Star Wars Legends" which I don't know anything about if someone can explain?  
"That is part of the joy of working with Lucas" ...there is a "story group" that is so strongly steeped in the Star Wars mythology to make sure the story fits. 

 

once we got the early soundtrack to the scene, we understood the tonal and emotional impact of the sequence because of Williams's score

 

Can you provide a link for this quote?

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The more I think about this film the more I like it. It certainly wasn't the sugar-high that TFA was, but I thought it was very satisfying--in a more real way--in the end. I do have some quibbles--the chronology of this trilogy puzzles me, and I don't understand how the crawl could say that the First Order has conquered a large part of the galaxy already, given that this film picks up right at the end of TFA (overlapping it, in fact, depending on how you read the opening space battle). Snoke turned out to be a means to an end (Kylo Ren's further descent) rather than anyone of consequence in his own right, and I did think it was going to end three or four times before it actually did. I was relieved that Rey is a nobody--that decision was the right one. I just wish JJ Abrams didn't seem to get off so much on mystery for its own sake; it seems like Rian Johnson just wasn't interested in playing along with that stuff and decided to be rid of it. The Rose/Finn stuff didn't bother me, honestly; I thought their getting derailed was necessary to add tension to the middle part of the film, and the way that Johnson tied all his threads together in the buildup to Crait was really well-handled. The Resistance fuel plot already reminded me a little of the episode "33" from Battlestar Galactica's first season, and for me that extra element of Finn and Rose's side adventure helped make it something more its own. Plus I thought Rose was a really endearing character--not quite like anyone else in Star Wars, in her unbridled optimism and hopeful, innocent nature--so I appreciated getting to spend more time with her. I thought Luke got a really fitting send-off, and the scene where that happened was incredibly beautiful in its staging and cinematography. Speaking of, I think this is easily the best looking film in the series, with some really incredible design and cinematography. Mark Hamill really impressed me with how he moved through Luke's arc. I also think Domhnall Gleeson deserves some credit for making the most out of a character that is a bit superfluous, adding some dimension to an underwritten and poorly utilized part. So many moments in this film have stuck in my mind, certainly moreso than Rogue One or TFA.

 

With all that happened in this film, and how it ended, I find myself questioning whether Episode IX is really necessary. None of the major OT characters will be around, and I would be content if they just left it here, honestly. The only way it will really work, as far as I can tell, is if the JJ Abrams builds in a time jump, with the Resistance perhaps being built up beyond the 40 or so people who were crammed onboard the Millennium Falcon and with Rey being more firmly established in her knowledge of the Force. I expect the final film to come down to Rey and Kylo Ren fighting for all the marbles.

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8 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

 

Yeah. I've only really watched them a couple of years back. They're not as big a deal around here. The original Star Wars is a bit silly and weird, which is to say nothing of Return of the Jedi. Really, Empire Strikes Back remains the only true masterpiece of the whole series: outside of C3PO, its literally a film of no meaningful flaw.

 

 

In *retrospect* that's how people see it, but at the time ESB was largely polarizing. A lot of people couldn't really stomach Yoda at first, or the fact that it ended on such a sour note where the hero gets his ass kicked and completely fails in the end, where Han Solo failed massively and got frozen in carbonite which lead to questions about whether or not he'd even return for the next one. My dad mentioned to me that a lot of his friends "swore off" Star Wars after ESB because it was so cold and dissimilar to ANH, and what he told me today is that the fan reaction to TLJ feels *exactly* like an echo of 1980. As an example you can read this NYT review from 1980 (a very fun read btw) that feels *very* similar to what people are saying about this movie:

 

Quote

"The Empire Strikes Back" is about as personal as a Christmas card from a bank.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/film/061580empire.html

 

Quote

The Empire Strikes Back" has no plot structure, no character studies let alone character development, no emotional or philosophical point to make. It has no original vision of the future, which is depicted as a pastiche of other junk-culture formulae, such as the western, the costume epic and the Would War II movie. Its specialty is "special effects" or visual tricks, some of which are playful, imaginative and impressive, but others of which have become space-movie clichés.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/review97/empirestrikesbackmartin.htm

 

 

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If nothing else the film definitely has a very enlightened view of the world.

 

In terms of the resistance

 

They get their intial attack after a desperate effort from Rose's sister.

 

When the Resistance is fleeing the main ship, Holdo again makes a desperate kamikaze move to save the remaining people.

 

In the finale, when they are trapped in the mountain, they are only able to escape because of Rey.

 

So in the 3 crucial crunch time moments, it is the women who bail out the Resistance.

 

That's something we are not seeing in any other blockbusters.

 

 

 

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I feel I need to see it again (at least once) to process my own feelings about it. I think this movie has problems, the biggest of which being Finn and Rose's plot thread, but there is still so much in it that I love. And I have to admire the risks that were taken even if not all of them work. But I'm sympathetic to the people who feel cheated and let down by it. This is a film that seemed almost engineered to be divisive, and will undoubtedly be analyzed and debated for years to come. Rian Johnson and the Lucasfilm suits had to have known there would be controversy with this movie, which makes the decision to give Johnson a whole trilogy of his own pretty strange and even more brazen than it already looked. 

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15 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

If nothing else the film definitely has a very enlightened view of the world.

 

In terms of the resistance

 

They get their intial attack after a desperate effort from Rose's sister.

 

When the Resistance is fleeing the main ship, Holdo again makes a desperate kamikaze move to save the remaining people.

 

In the finale, when they are trapped in the mountain, they are only able to escape because of Rey.

 

So in the 3 crucial crunch time moments, it is the women who bail out the Resistance.

 

That's something we are not seeing in any other blockbusters.

 

 

 

 

Huh wow. Hadn't noticed this. Very profound and inspiring. I had forgotten that women aren't incapable invalids and am grateful at least one film is reminding myself and others of that fact.

 

Oh wait, was it that, or was it being married to a great woman and having a modicum of common sense and decency - particularly the latter? No it was definitely the movie that turned me around on the issue. 

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57 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

So in the 3 crucial crunch time moments, it is the women who bail out the Resistance.

 

That's something we are not seeing in any other blockbusters.

 

 

Mad Max: Fury Road had something similar though. Have you ever seen so many women, young and old in the climax of an action film?

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5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

 

Mad Max: Fury Road had something similar though. Have you ever seen so many women, young and old in the climax of an action film?

 

That's a touchpoint. But this film has women consistently in powerful positions making important decisions.

 

This might be the Kennedy influence but whatever it is, it is working.

 

And doing it in Mad Max (which is like this punk franchise) is not nearly as radical as doing it in SW. SW is an American institution and a "boy's franchise for most of its existence" and in a country which missed its moment in electing a female leader, it is striking to see popular culture moving forward, not waiting for political reality to catch up with it.

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