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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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I will say that the "anyone can be a Force user" message didn't really resonate with me. 

 

Rogue One (particularly in conjunction with the tie-in Guardians of the Whills book) was MUCH better in that regard. It showed a realistic path of faith for the average person who can't really use the Force but still believes in it. 

 

It feels like the "Biblical," epic nature is going to take a hit if they go down the route of "everyone can be a Jedi" (although maybe they were just giving a general message of hope). I think that's one of the reasons the Rey parentage reveal is so unsatisfying (even though it could ultimately be best). 

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49 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Didn't you ask everyone here for a full spoiler breakdown last week though? How is the claim above possible? 

 

I was referring to Johnson's vision for the franchise as a whole as "unpredictable". True, I had read the plot for the film and known multiple spoilers before seeing it, but there were still many aspects of the film that I found surprising prior to watching the film last night.

 

I assure you, it's very much possible.

 

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3 hours ago, Will said:

I will say that the "anyone can be a Force user" message didn't really resonate with me. 

 

Rogue One (particularly in conjunction with the tie-in Guardians of the Whills book) was MUCH better in that regard. It showed a realistic path of faith for the average person who can't really use the Force but still believes in it. 

 

It feels like the "Biblical," epic nature is going to take a hit if they go down the route of "everyone can be a Jedi" (although maybe they were just giving a general message of hope). I think that's one of the reasons the Rey parentage reveal is so unsatisfying (even though it could ultimately be best). 

 

It's a more egalitarian message, a more liberal message, a more progressive message, a more socialist message.

 

WE ARE ALL SPECIAL!

 

It's as if Oprah wrote the script  - You are special! And you are special! And you! And you! We are all special!

 

(and under all your chairs is a lightsaber).

 

Let us all hold hands and sing love songs in the spirit of equality.

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I'm really bit puzzled by some people's reaction to Luke's character. Surely a person that went through so much would have been changed by his life's experiences. He has every right to feel a bit tired of all the grind and eternal struggle between two equally narrow-minded sets of dogmas. If anything, his motivation is the most logical thing about the movie and his opinions on Light/Dark really are interesting. It brings back a certain mystical quality to the Force rather than just being about the same limited amount of superhero tricks that it's used for in all the other films (which is comically pointed out by Rey at one point). I also love how he finally embraced his legacy of a "legend" at the end and, in effect, gives future generation something to strive towards. Even if it was just a lie to a degree. But then again, these things always are.

 

Karol

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10 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Cis white males are the main target audience in Hollywood!

 

You are not wrong. But cultural phenomena like Star Wars have a much broader target audience, which has been the way of things for a few years now. I'd like to say it's because Disney recognise the cultural value in diversity and inclusion but it's obviously because wider audience = more $$$.

 

You can tell that the target audience is wider now because of the amount of backlash the films have received for their perceived "radical agenda", which largely revolves around the inclusion of more female characters and the occasional person of colour. Just read that terrible article that Denise linked earlier in the thread if you don't believe me.

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Just now, Docteur Qui said:

 

 

You are not wrong. But cultural phenomena like Star Wars have a much broader target audience, which has been the way of things for a few years now. I'd like to say it's because Disney recognise the cultural value in diversity and inclusion but it's obviously because wider audience = more $$$

Precisely.

 

Karol

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19 minutes ago, crocodile said:

I'm really bit puzzled by some people's reaction to Luke's character.

 

Maybe i'm in the wrong peer group but i just don't see even half-balanced guys going *seriously* apeshit over a movie's story threads (mostly on social media). I have criticized, and god is my witness, enough movies and scores over the years but there's a level of rationale behind it, maybe sometimes the sheer fun to stir the pot and so on. But reading some of it, Bill Shatner's old 'get a life' catchphrase blooms into new life and meaning.

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"Anyone can be a Force user"

 

That has never been so true.

 

In december 2019, I will use the Force to "imagine" Episode IX, from the comfort of my house, because I will not got in a theater to see it.

 

Maxi big da Force, huh?

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10 minutes ago, Bespin said:

"Anyone can be a Force user"

 

That has never been so true.

 

In december 2019, I will use the Force to "imagine" Episode IX, from the comfort of my house, because I will not got in a theater to see it.

 

Maxi big da Force, huh?

 

You'll pay to see it at the cinema like the rest of us. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Disney wants you to give in to your hatred.

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On 12/17/2017 at 12:39 PM, publicist said:

But that's a cop-out - you can end all discussion on such relativist standpoint.

 

While that's true, I think that's still the best answer I can give you on this one. I personally thought TFA made up for its lack of imagination with good performances and solid production values. It wasn't surprising that the mouse would want to play it safe with their first couple outings.

 

I suppose before I'd seen it I really thought the filmmakers were going to try to wow us with this film. As so often happens, I bought into the hype from the director, the actors and the marketing team. Then the critics chimed in giving the film nearly universal acclaim...

 

And here we are with a film that half the audience disliked. Disney and the people who liked it are offensively incredulous, blaming internet trolls for the negative reviews. While I understand calling my assessment a cop out, I have no better explanation. Every disappointed fan I know of has a different point of view on what went wrong with this one. It really is fascinating.

 

On 12/17/2017 at 6:55 PM, karelm said:

"That is part of the joy of working with Lucas" ...there is a "story group" that is so strongly steeped in the Star Wars mythology to make sure the story fits. 

 

Well, if TLJ offers any indication of what this group thinks "fits" with the existing installments, I'm out. These people clearly don't like Star Wars for the reasons I did.

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1 hour ago, Muldoon said:

And here we are with a film that half the audience disliked. Disney and the people who liked it are offensively incredulous, blaming internet trolls for the negative reviews.

 

But they are probably right on that score: half the billion-sized audience disliked it? Or just a tiny minority vocal on social media? 'Regular' people just don't get that upset about a movie (again: why? They got bang for their buck). It's all rather silly and in 10 months, all those guys will have bought at least 2 blu-ray editions of this title. 

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This movie is such a complete failure on so many levels (mainly from writing and directing point of view) that it brought me to the point where I don't care anymore about this story and these characters. For me this is the final act of a long goodbye that started in 1999. The music is truly the only saving grace and thank goodness we still have John Williams at least. 

 

These two articles sum up perfectly (and much better than I would) all the issues I had with Last Jedi (sorry if they've been already posted before)

 

http://variety.com/2017/film/columns/star-wars-the-last-jedi-four-reasons-why-its-not-one-for-the-ages-1202643241/

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2017/12/18/its-time-to-stop-grading-movies-like-star-wars-the-last-jedi-on-a-curve/

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Its not a bad movie by any means. Not even close. I wouldn't be apprehensive about going to see it.

 

42 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

 

this:

 

Quote

 Rian Johnson doesn’t know how to structure a movie.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Drax, just repeat what you did with Twin Peaks. See it 25 years after everybody else and then become obsessed with it for a little while as if it literally just came out. That'll be the most beneficial strat for you.

 

Well it kinda, sorta did.

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On 18/12/2017 at 8:57 PM, Docteur Qui said:

 

Snoke was nothing more than a plot device intentionally thrown in as a buffer for Kylo Ren's actions. The Emperor was one of the worst characters in the OT, zero motivation or defining characteristics beyond "evil", existing only as a way to redeem Vader. The parallels are intentional, as was the subversive outcome. I'm just glad it happened in this one and not episode 9.

 

I agree the Emperor isn't a particularly compelling character in the OT but he is redeemed and made into one of the most diabolical, powerful and interesting villains in the prequels. We won't be getting that fleshing out for Snoke, which makes him essentially the most cliche 'something something something Dark Side' empty villains we've seen. That may be somewhat forgivable in the 70s/80s but by now we've seen a thousand of these (not least many rightly criticised MCU villains) - there's no excuse for a villain with absolutely no reason for existing other than EVIL(!). Kylo Ren  to me is an excellent villain though, it's a shame he is saddled with Snoke.

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It would be interesting to read George Lucas's story treatments for episodes VII to IX.  Mark Hamill said the treatments were interesting and obviously would have been more consistent in tone to the originals.  I think Lucas is a pretty good imagineer but not a good writer so if he wrote a plot treatment and had Kasdan or someone flush out a script, it could be worth reading.  Obviously he sold his ownership of the franchise but it is possible these can be made into graphic novels or novels or something at some future date like how they treated Lucas's original Star Wars script.

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Original-Screenplay-George/dp/1783294981

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Yeah, it was never going to feel like a natural continuation and conclusion of the George Lucas films.

 

17 minutes ago, karelm said:

 I think Lucas is a pretty good imagineer but not a good writer.

 

Exactly. There's a difference between a story treatment and a script. The best Star Wars film, is the one that George Lucas only wrote the story to, not the script.

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In the scene with the fake ship landing which turns out to be an iron ironing a First Order uniform, was anyone reminded of the comedic fake out in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the German villain menacingly got his coat-hanger out for his jacket?

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9 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

In the scene with the fake ship landing which turns out to be an iron ironing a First Order uniform, was anyone reminded of the comedic fake out in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the German villain menacingly got his coat-hanger out for his jacket?

 

No, I was reminded of Spaceballs.

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47 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

In the scene with the fake ship landing which turns out to be an iron ironing a First Order uniform, was anyone reminded of the comedic fake out in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the German villain menacingly got his coat-hanger out for his jacket?

 

Yeah, definitely. I thought that was hilarious.  Probably the only time I've laughed out loud during a Star Wars flick. 

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Wow really?  There are ton of laugh out loud moments in TFA and TLJ!  They handled the humor in both very well I thought.

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