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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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Vader was redeemed, not forgiven. There's a difference. He can never be forgiven, but he redeemed his actions by finally fulfilling the prophecy and also saving his son and ultimately the galaxy........which disney now made fucking pointless as the galaxy is worse off than ever, thus the actions of Luke, Leia, Han, Vader etc were all useless.

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3 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

.which disney now made fucking pointless as the galaxy is worse off than ever, thus the actions of Luke, Leia, Han, Vader etc were all useless.

 

Wow,l did you really think the galaxy would have peace and prosperity forever thanks to what Luke, Han, Leia etc did? And that they would makes movies about that peace and prosperity?

 

You probably hate the Prequels for portraying the Jedi as arrogant, bureaucratic and inefficient, right?

 

2 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Kylo should be redeemed, after becoming an emotional wreck when he believed Luke was going to kill him. I feel a little bit of empathy for him.

 

True, it is Luke who, in his moment of weakness, sets things in motion. 

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15 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Wow,l did you really think the galaxy would have peace and prosperity forever thanks to what Luke, Han, Leia etc did? And that they would makes movies about that peace and prosperity?

 

You probably hate the Prequels for portraying the Jedi as arrogant, bureaucratic and inefficient, right?

 

 

I think the prequel portrayal of the jedi makes sense. That's why they fell, because of their arrogance and ignorance. I like that. 

 

And yes I did think they saved the galaxy, because it's what happened in the film. Reversing that is stupid. Disney should have made NEW star wars films. Not just remakes and retellings with old characters and butchering their legacy by just changing their entire personalities and killing them off in useless ways. 

 

 

The utter hilarious irony that Kylo Ren says "let the past die. Move on." Yet disney are doing the exact opposite.

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9 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

I think the prequel portrayal of the jedi makes sense. That's why they fell, because of their arrogance and ignorance. I like that. 

 

It isn't, because it never feels like the filmmaker is treating those traits of the Jedi with disdain. In going back with the prequels, George Lucas just took his Taoist inspiration regarding the portrayal of the Jedi much further than he should have, to the point of making their ethics unpalatable to a western audience.

 

Their supposed "arrogance" is just there as a plot device in order to allow for the villians to rise to power. Generally speaking, that's a flaw from a dramatic standpoint: you don't want your heroes to succeed due to the villians stupidity (e.g. stormtrooper aiming skills) because it undermines their competency; and you don't want your villians to succed due to the heroes blunders, because it undercuts their menace.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

It isn't, because it never feels like the filmmaker is treating those traits of the Jedi with disdain. In going back with the prequels, George Lucas just took his Taoist inspiration regarding the portrayal of the Jedi much further than he should have, to the point of making their ethics unpalatable to a western audience.

 

Their supposed "arrogance" is just there as a plot device in order to allow for the villians to rise to power. Generally speaking, that's a flaw from a dramatic standpoint: you don't want your heroes to succeed due to the villians stupidity (e.g. stormtrooper aiming skills) because it undermines their competency; and you don't want your villians to succed due to the heroes blunders, because it undercuts their menace.

 

 

 

🤤 but me just like de pretty lightsabers and stuff.

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The indolence of the Jedi Order in the prequels I felt was more because of the rise of Palpatine and his clouding of the light side of the force. Did Luke forget Yoda was prey to Palpatine's treachery? 

 

The Clone Wars do attempt to show the Jedi as erring on more morally ambiguous notions about what role they play in the galaxy, but I can't help but think the fall of the Jedi was a direct result of the Sith and not because of Luke's notion that they had no right to the force. 

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Kylo did kill younglings in the flashback during The Force Awakens. We also saw him, in full Kylo Ren garb, with his associates (The Knights of Ren?), presumably about to fight with Luke. The Last Jedi didn't pay that off.

 

I have little doubt Johnson meant for it to be in The Last Jedi, but had to cut it down given the film's already egregious length.

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2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Kylo did kill younglings in the flashback during The Force Awakens. We also saw him, in full Kylo Ren garb, with his associates (The Knights of Ren?), presumably about to fight with Luke. The Last Jedi didn't pay that off.

 

That's incorrect. There is no indication that that scene in Rey's vision took place during the massacre of Luke's academy. It's highly unlikely that that is the case, as Luke was unconscious/buried under rubble during the uprising, and when Luke does regain consciousness, there is no sign of pouring rain as there is in the vision. It's most likely a flash-forward to a scene from IX. There's also no indication that the being Kylo stabs through is an apprentice of Luke's, or even human, for that matter.

 

Besides, in the time it took for Ben to collapse the hut onto Luke and rally his fellow sympathizing pupils to murder the other students, they managed to get dressed up for the occasion in the motley garb they wear in the vision? It all doesn't add up.

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It doesn't add up because of Johnson's film: In The Force Awakens, all those moments at the very least seem to be in the same environment.

 

Something to look for (and get up in arms about ;)) in a marathon viewing.

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I went back to that sequence: The temple burning is dry, but the shot of Luke's hand on R2 starts dry and than starts raining, which could be read as a transition rather than diegetic rain.

 

Still, I have little doubt that the person we see killed later is supposed to be one of Luke's pupils. He even has the youngling helmet from Attack of the Clones.

 

Similarly, Rey's parents are supposed to be natives to Jakku (according to Kylo, they're buried there), but the vision makes it look like they're leaving the planet entirely.

 

9 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Plus, Ren didn't have a helmet yet.

 

According to Rian Johnson.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Similarly, Rey's parents are supposed to be natives to Jakku (according to Kylo, they're buried there), but the vision at least makes it look like they're leaving the planet entirely

 

And its impossible to leave a planet and then come back? 

 

Come on!

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8 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

And its impossible to leave a planet and then come back? 

 

Come on!

 

They were just driving out to find space booze!

 

I think the biggest gulf in positive and negative fan reactions to TLJ is the expectation:  are you a continuity buff and in it for the plot mechanics?  or are you in it for the character story, overarching themes, etc?

 

Obviously some people were disappointed by both, but the vast majority complaints I've seen online have been more plot based than story based.  I don't think either way is wrong, but in the end, what you take out of it does reflect what you bring into it.  Reminds me of the disparate reactions to the LOST finale, for instance.

 

I'm more in it for the emotional story.  There are some oddball things that I didn't care for - especially in the portrayal of Luke - but overall I really liked the movie.

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12 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I think the biggest gulf in positive and negative fan reactions to TLJ is the expectation:  are you a continuity buff and in it for the plot mechanics?  or are you in it for the character story, overarching themes, etc?

 

That's a very good point, although I wouldn't say its the biggest gulf: I think that people see the subversive nature of The Last Jedi as either subversive for the sake of being subversive, or as irreverent to the Star Wars saga, or both. There are also pacing issues, and issues to do with the implementation of humor.

 

I do see merit in good continuity because it allows to reap the biggest benefit of the multi-film narrative: this idea of building one film off of another, and creating deeper characters and a deeper conflict. If the continuity isn't as good, it mires that.

 

The problem nowadays is that we are seeing film series based off of pre-existing source material, so the filmmakers either have a story outline in the form of the source material itself, or the studio allows them to write and shot the whole bloody thing simultaneously. Whereas Star Wars never did that, and coming back to it when our concept of continuity has changed so radically, is very jarring indeed.

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The "normies" I've spoken to (i.e. regular joes who haven't watched and rewatched the Star Wars movies, unless they flip past em on HBO or something) - such as the handful of coworkers I've talked to who have seen it - have never mentioned the movie as subversive.  I mentioned this over in the mstrox thread, but one of them (who liked it), said that she thought is was TOO MUCH like the other Star Wars movies.  Outside of some interesting stylistic choices (the coda at the end, the visually striking Holdo Hyperspace jump), they didn't really mention anything subversive or weird about it.  (Oh, one woman mentioned the weird milking scene at the beginning).

 

I will add that everybody I've spoken to in my everyday life has come out with, at the very least, mildly positive feelings on TLJ.  The only negative reactions I've seen have been here and some randos on Twitter - although I know this isn't everyone's experience (Jay says most of the people he's talked to disliked the movie).

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It bugged me a little during the movie, but I've now decided I can't abide the new telepathy scenes they've expanded on in the new movie and which are now assumed to be a regular thing in subsequent movies. It's lazy as fuck convenience and basically allows them to do whatever comms they like between characters at any time it suits them and have their excuse literally be IT'S THE FORCE. This is absolutely lowest rent writing.

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If Johnson couldn't figure out a way of making his film "different" without completely chucking and subverting the established Star Wars mythology, then he's just not that good of a director (and he's not that good of a director).

 

 

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1 minute ago, Quintus said:

It bugged me a little during the movie, but I've now decided I can't abide the new telepathy scenes they've expanded on in the new movie. It's lazy as fuck convenience and basically allows them to do whatever they like between characters at any time it suits them and have their excuse literally be IT'S THE FORCE. This is absolutely lowest rent writing.

 

I didn't mind that so much. The Force always had a strong effect on plot holes. When something is used more than once in a film, the audience comes to accept it: It feels like its planted and payed-off, even if it technically isn't.

 

I'm more bothered by the astral projection. I guess we are supposed to see it as an extension of that telepathy thing,  but its far from clear, and as a result it feels like there's no planting.

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Luke projecting his physical presence I buy a little more readily simply by virtue of it providing some real dramatic Star Wars cinema, fleeting though it may be, and the best moment in the entire score. I can turn a blind eye to IT'S THE FORCE explanation if I ultimately find the execution satisfying.

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We are all talking about his reunion with Leia, right?

 

Easily the best emotional "beat" in the film. Aided greatly by a welcome cameo of the Luke and Leia theme.

 

Its also a nice inter-textual moment given Fisher's passing.

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Kylo alludes to projection being possible, as he says to Rey the first time their weird connection occurs “You can’t be doing this, the effort would kill you” (paraphrased), and that’s why Kylo asks “can you see my surroundings?”. At least that’s what I thought.

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Again, you could see their telepathic connection as an ability related to this astral projection, but it certainly isn't clear. When Luke is doing it - everyone can see him, not just the individual he is connecting to or someone else who is using The Force.

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I didn't think that what Luke does at the end was meant to the best same type of connection that Snoke set up for Ren and Rey

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I think when Kylo said "That will kill you," she was attempting to exert the force more than their passive connection.  Doubt she was necessarily trying to do what Luke did (or likely didn't know what she was doing, since she is so new to the Force), but the warning held true as Luke exerted the Force over incredibly long distance and went poof.

 

Just remembered an episode of Star Wars: Rebels where Ezra communicated with a physical depiction of Yoda in a Jedi Temple on Lothal, while Yoda was situated on the other side of the galaxy on Dagobah.  I remember that seemed weird to me at the time, too.  Wonder if that idea came before TLJ's exercise in it.  Based on the production schedule of an animated show, my best guess would be that the Rebels episode was formulated first.

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30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Again, you could see their telepathic connection as an ability related to this astral projection, but it certainly isn't clear. When Luke is doing it - everyone can see him, not just the individual he is connecting to or someone else who is using The Force.

 

Nah, I wasn’t suggesting that the projection and Ren and Rey’s connections were similar. I think Kylo believed that Rey was using the same projection that Luke ended up doing (though she wasn’t) and that that was the setup in the film for what Luke does later. I didn’t really notice that until seeing the film a second time.

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

We are all talking about his reunion with Leia, right?

 

Easily the best emotional "beat" in the film. 

 

I'm not sure about Steef but I was referring to the marriage of music and imagery as Luke goes outside to meet the enemy on the battlefield.

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8 hours ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

Religiosity - Watching the humor in the last 7 Star Wars and not seeing it as cheap, cheesy, or dreadful.

 

I feel like I’ve woken up in a mirror universe where Star Wars humor is anything more than awkward groan worthy. It has always been so, by intent. Maybe the aspergers fans who spend their lives interacting with movies and imaginary situations instead of real people think this is real humor?

 

I like Star Wars humour but that particular scene with Luke throwing his own lightsaber away was as poor as it gets in this movie. Rather than engaging in a serious discussion with Rey about who she is and how she came across his own Jedi weapon, Johnson decides to implement cheap humour and start turning this movie into a Marvel comedy fest.

 

I saw the movie twice. The first one was a midnight screening with Star Wars fanatics who did not come out with the same positive buzz that was felt after TFA. I viewed it again four days later and found it to be even more disappointing because the jokes were only tolerable once and do not fit into what should have been a more engaging film. The ending is exciting but the middle portion of the movie outstays its welcome.

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22 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

If Luke had dropped the lightsaber before his feet rather than behind his back - the scene would have been totally different.

 

Why?  I think it worked fine because the message he was saying was he really did not want to go back told without dialog and in a shocking/humorous way.  It landed for me and my audience found it shocking, revealing, and funny.  If he just dropped it, it's more like he is saying "I sort of don't want to continue the jedi fight". 

 

I still think overall the film was quite satisfying except for pacing/extraneous scenes and characters that were forced and added little.  15 minutes too long and maybe another 10-15 minutes that should have been focused better on character moments.  The false death sequence of Leia was either wasted or misjudged. 

 

I thought the humor was very fitting of Star Wars including Chewie eating a porg.  I would have wanted a back and forth banter between R2 and 3PO which would have just been for nostalgia/fan service but would have been warmly received if 3PO goes from joyful reunion to annoyance pretty quickly. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

If Luke had dropped the lightsaber before his feet rather than behind his back - the scene would have been totally different.

 

Exactly! Maybe even show Luke with an exhausted expression rather than a grumpy one as the lightsaber rolls from his hands because he does not want to be reunited with his previous life.

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13 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Careful, Chen. Some people don't accept this kind of talk and will accuse you of being a hater hating for the sake of hating.

 

On 12/13/2017 at 11:34 PM, BloodBoal said:

 

Hater who likes to hate just for the sake of hating!

 

Why did you post in a Star Wars thread if it is only to trash Star WArs? Don't have anything better to do with your days?

 

Ignored!

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