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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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There are a lot of little visual hints that Luke isn't actually there: the lightsaber is one, but also he is the only one not to leave red footprints on the ground. The camera closes in on his and Ren's feet for that reason alone.

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The feet must have been decided on pretty late because when they show them in the beginning, the crystals are all bare around the entrance, there's no salt at all, the cannon's shockwave must have swept it away. Unless they decided to stop their standoff and walk out a few hundred meters to continue, it's a classic continuity error where the nice visual hint from later is in conflict with the logic of events from earlier.

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8 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Thanks for the replies.

 

Please refresh my failing memory, did Luke use a lightsabre in the showdown with Ren at the end, and if so, was it his ROTJ one?

Luke and Ren's light sabers never actually touch.  Along with no footprints from Luke as Chen G said. 

 

8 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

 

Okay, but what was the point of seeing hundreds of images of herself? What was supposedly so evil about the cave (alluded to in the firsy lesson)?

Rian: It is very much a variant of when Luke went into the tree cave in Dagobah, Rey gets a very different answer when she questions her role and her path.  This island has an incredible light represented by the jedi tree on top and incredible darkness represented by this cave.  She goes in looking for answers and what it shows her is her greatest fear which is in her search for the truth of her identity, there are all these various possibilities seemingly going off into infinity.  She comes to the end looking for an answer to her identity and it is ultimately just her alone.

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Missed a bit in this here thread, but probably alone in expecting after the Yoda scene (good as it was to see him), Luke lifting the X-wing out of the water in a flash and then next swooping in to save the day late on. Could see Episode IX set a few years on by far, when the spark reignites for the resistance. And ghost Luke in attendance. 

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10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

There are a lot of little visual hints that Luke isn't actually there: the lightsaber is one, but also he is the only one not to leave red footprints on the ground. The camera closes in on his and Ren's feet for that reason alone.

 

Also, he looks a lot younger like in the flashbacks. Short haircut and no gray hair

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It was the impression that he is floating in this scene. But can a problem with effects too, the green background. And there was no despair on Leia's part. Maybe she understood. The fact is that Luke really is now a legend. So many absurd stories will be passed from ear to ear to little children. 

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I just read that Yoda was a real puppet in TLJ (recreated from the original mould of the old one). I really thought they recreated the puppet using CGI, because in a wide shot he looked very weird.

 

So it's the texture or the lighthing that is different, because I recognized the manipulation of Frank Oz, but not the original puppet.

 

 

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Let's talk about C-3PO and R2-D2 for change....

 

I realize that a Star Wars movie with no real interaction between C-3PO and R2-D2 is not a real Star Wars.

 

I always knew that the two characters would be the only to appears in all the 6... oooops...9 movies. But I never expected they would had such minor roles.

 

I don't ask for a ridiculous scene like the one of the robot factory in the prequels (I don't even remember in which movie it was!), but at least a little "sketch", more than just one sentence.

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3 hours ago, Bespin said:

Let's talk about C-3PO and R2-D2 for change....

 

I realize that a Star Wars movie with no real interaction between C-3PO and R2-D2 is not a real Star Wars.

 

I always knew that the two characters would be the only to appears in all the 6... oooops...9 movies. But I never expected they would had such minor roles.

 

I don't ask for a ridiculous scene like the one of the robot factory in the prequels (I don't even remember in which movie it was!), but at least a little "sketch", more than just one sentence.

 

The Droids were central to the storytelling in Star Wars, but in all the others they are just comic relief.

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49 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

C3PO's "humor" is probably the only thing that doesn't work for me in Empire Strikes Back. He's really annoying!

 

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:28 PM, Chen G. said:

I like the story and characters of the Hobbit trilogy... I like the tone and a lot of the dramatic beats, as well.

 

:eh:

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By "like the tone" I meant that I like that its more serious than the novel.

 

And that film series' annoying comic relief character ends up in a troll's digestive tract! You can give me that kind of character, if that's where they end up.

 

And even if that weren't so, being inconsistent in one's arguments, doesn't render said arguments false. Post-Star-Wars C3PO is annoying. What I think about other film series' doesn't change that.

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Laura Dern is actually very good in this, performance wise. Its her character keeping her plan a secret for no good reason that's the issue.

 

Benicio Del Toro, who is a great actor, doesn't work here at all. Nor do any of the bad guys outside of Kylo Ren: From Andy Serkis through Domnhall Gleeson to Gwendoline Christie - they're all far too over the top in their wickedness.

 

I didn't find the porgs particularly annoying because they really weren't in the film that much. Although without either them, the caretakers or both - some of the film's excessive length could have been undone. The island subplot channels enough humor through Luke and Rey that it doesn't need these creatures, much less whole scenes of Chewbacca interacting with the porgs (seriously, what the hell?) or sitcom-esque cutaways to the caretakers....

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I would have liked the film to end on a cliffhanger, say around where Rey's pod reaches Snoke's ship. That way the escape to Crait could have opened Ep IX and we would have had Leia in the next film. Luke could have shown up in the flesh this time and carried Ep IX to its conclusion. It is after all the story of the Skywalker family saga. All of this could have been made possible by reshoots after the death of Carrie Fisher. 

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Its generally not desirable to end two films in a row in a cliffhanger. You need to give the audience at least some temporary closure to keep them interested.

 

Doesn't change the fact that this films end one sequence and two extra scenes too late.

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Yes, cliffhangers can be trickey, but it is a three act story, and at least there's only two years between episodes. The film was clearly overlong and needed to be cut back. Saving Crait and Snoke for Ep IX would have made sense. Luke needed to step in a be more than just a diversion, only that way could he have earned the title of the last Jedi.

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I only have two complaints to make about it:

 

1. Luke would never be a coward to the point of trying to kill Leia's son during the sleep (but he was).


2. Ren and Rey are reflections of the characters of the first two trilogies.

 

Episode VII: Rey = Han Solo or Anakin (TPM)     /       Ren = Anakin (AoTC)
Episode VII: Rey = Luke                                       /       Ren = Vader (TNH, ESB and RoJ)
Episode IX: Rey = Leia (?)                                   /        Ren = Vader after of RoJ (without redemption) (?)

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2 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Yes, cliffhangers can be trickey, but it is a three act story, and at least there's only two years between episodes. The film was clearly overlong and needed to be cut back. Saving Crait and Snoke for Ep IX would have made sense. Luke needed to step in a be more than just a diversion, only that way could he have earned the title of the last Jedi.

 

Interestingly, in regard to Middle-Earth cliffhangers, LOTR did not have one. What we got was a powerful moment at the end of FOTR and TTT to prepare us for the next part of the movie's journey. We know where the Hobbits are heading and we are preparing to witness a large-scale war between good and evil to decide the fate of the ring. The Hobbit had a really powerful cliffhanger in DOS. That was part two in the trilogy, though. Aside from The Force Awakens, has there been a memorable cliffhanger to end the first film of a planned trilogy? Are first film cliffhangers common?

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4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Laura Dern is actually very good in this, performance wise. Its her character keeping her plan a secret for no good reason that's the issue.

 

This point has been raised several times and makes no sense to me  You do understand that in a military context the leadership does not owe an explanation to the subordinates, right?  During D Day, the troops were actually NOT told the risk they were going to take because if they understood the risk they might have backed out.  Basically, what are you talking about?  This was intentional to keep the troops in the dark.  Your point makes no sense in real life historical context.   If you are referring to fiction only, then it is equally a meaningless point since you are describing a fictional situation.

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5 hours ago, karelm said:

This point has been raised several times and makes no sense to me  You do understand that in a military context the leadership does not owe an explanation to the subordinates, right?  During D Day, the troops were actually NOT told the risk they were going to take because if they understood the risk they might have backed out.  Basically, what are you talking about?  This was intentional to keep the troops in the dark.  Your point makes no sense in real life historical context.   If you are referring to fiction only, then it is equally a meaningless point since you are describing a fictional situation.

 

As a former captain in the IDF (including at war time) I should know. But this isn't an army. It's a ragtag group of resistance fighters. Also, if that was the case, why not let the audience in on it? Hitchcock used to define suspense as the audience being in on information that characters do not have. Think about how much tension that would have imbued Poe's mutiny with.

 

6 hours ago, LOTRHobbitFan said:

Interestingly, in regard to Middle-Earth cliffhangers, LOTR did not have one.

 

I dunno. I think the end of Fellowship of the Ring is quite the cliffhanger. But that series really is just a pair of films, each split three ways, so you can do stuff with them that you can't do here.

 

9 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Yes, cliffhangers can be trickey, but it is a three act story, and at least there's only two years between episodes. The film was clearly overlong and needed to be cut back.

 

Its not a three act story. I mean, the individual films of the trilogy don't correspond three acts in a script. Otherwise, both first films would end in pcliffhangers (again, too much) and the first film will be wholly uninteresting: the closest to a film serving as the "first act" of a series in An Unexpected Journey, and we know how that turned out....

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Yes, this movie has major problems. It really needed reworking at the scripting stage.

 

Holdo would have made sense if they had set her up as a replacement to Leia going into Ep IX, but they didn't and her sacrifice at the end just doesn't feel earned.

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It felt unearned because, as with 90% of this film, it was played up to surprise the audience. Surprises only go so far. Really; think about it: how many outright twists and surprises are in your favorite films? I bet not half of the amount of surprises in this.

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While watching, I'd initially assumed Dern's character was being lined up to take over from Leia come the time, and that she would possibly feature quite significantly in part 3. Otherwise, what was the point of introducing this character and famed actress? Turns out there really was no point at all.

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In Rian Johnson's head, there is an obvious reason: to surprise the audience! And he milks a series of surprises out of it: 

  1. Turning her from antagonistic to Poe to being the character that performs the most heroic act of the film.
  2. Allowing for the surprise of Poe's mutiny attempt.
  3. On a meta level, to play with the audience's assumption that she will replace Leia.
  4. Again in a meta level, to play with the convention that the authority figure who acts like a jerk is the bad guy, and the young can-do contrarian is the good guy.

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I've only seen two other Rian Johnson films, Looper and Brothers Bloom, and nothing in those films made me excited for this, especially Bloom. The latter really seemed to be tonally off and rather pointless. Still, I went into this with an open mind, but sadly I ended up disappointed.

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