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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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2 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

Most people didn't complain about the prequels at the time of their release, because people wanted to like them so bad that it caused the longest period of collective denial in human history.

 

What about the people that were posting embarrassing videos of themselves crying and practically jerking off to Han Solo in TFA trailer? They hadn't even seen the movie and were prepared to love it. I'm sure the same thing occurred with TLJ, which I thought had entirely ineffective trailers.

 

We are dealing with fanboyism here!

*tosses crude medical equipment*

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4 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Except odd fellas like king mark.

 

Repeatedly picking on the same member of a forum, over and over again, is a sure sign of insecurity, immaturity, and overall "prickishness".

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So, since I got the Force Awakens Bluray as a gift yesterday, I figured why not watch it. Two years late, but still. And since I have been invited to watch Last Jedi, too, next weekend, just some thoughts and general impressions.

I don't think I will watch this film again, there is not much to go back to.

This is such a weird film, and the plot is contrived as shit. At first, I didn't think I would make it through half of it, because the first 25-30 minutes or so tick just about every box of movie clichees in the book, and I figured if this goes on like that, I may as well switch off.

 

The movie instantly gets more entertaining when Han Solo appears, which unfortunately hinders any genuine chemistry Finn and Rey just started to nurture together.

To be bold, I think Han and Leia could have been dropped from the film entirely as far as the plot is concerned, and replaced with new characters. The subplot of Kylo Ren being their son, and the subsequent conversation about "there is still good in him" is pure cringe. As is the statement that Han is the father Rey never had. WTF? They spend maybe two days together, a week tops, and all she comes across as is a fangirl of his. 

 

The movie is too fixated on nostalgia for its own good. The constant line dropping from old films is annoying (especially Rey Force-guiding her way out of imprisonment), and in places where they really should have adressed the past, they don't do it. Like that irritating scene of the General reinacting Saruman's war rallying from Two Towers, talking about overthrowing the Republic. 

Why? Didn't they think it was necessary to at least partially explain what happened to the Republic? There's the Republic, the First Order, the Rebellion - what the fuck is going on? What happened to the Clone Army of stormtroopers, which Hux clearly refers to as nonexistent anymore. Name-dropping "Sith" and "Vader" doesn't do.

Speaking of Vader, if the First Order is demonizing the Republic for their own goals, why would Ren try to walk in Vader's footsteps? Wasn't Vader pretty much the poster boy of the Republic? My head hurts ...

How about including some backstory instead of doing a dumb "Rathtars" scene? Of course they eat everybody at first glance, but for some reason decide to just take Finn hostage instead.

 

Also, this film always uses the same plot device to get the characters from A to B to C to D: "The First Order! Run!" 

I can't even count the number of coincidences this movie requires you to just swallow in Order to enjoy it. 

The Millennium Falcon happens to be on Jakku.

Rey just happens to find BB 8.

Rey just happens to find the Stormtrooper pilot that just happens to know the pilot that sent the droid.

Han Solo just happens to find the girl who happened to find the guy who knows the guy who happened to give the Skywalker map to the droid, that happens to be found by the same girl, who also happens to be the heir of the force. What?

Solo then takes Rey to the place that just happens to have Luke's lightsaber in a dirty basement, without Han even knowing! WHAT?

Then in the middle of a gigantic forest planet, Rey of course just walks right into the arms of Kylo Ren. Sure.

R2 just happens to reactivate.

The destruction of the Starkiller also lacks a moment of clear triumph, something like Yay we won! It just sort of happens.

 

The guy playing Ren reminds me of Alan Rickman every time.

Rey's character is confusingly drawn. There are two moments that make her vivid and relatable, the first one being when she puts on the helmet after a day's work in the beginning, the second one when she says "I didn't know there was so much green in the universe" or something.

Her discovery of the Force is as confusing as it's abrupt.

 

Speaking of the force, I can't help but think that Williams missed the opportunity to write a theme for literally the awakening of the Force. It's referenced numerous times. Just using the Force theme comes across in the film as it does on album: uninspired. Would lend itself to wonderful moments like Rey standing before Luke. The Binary Sunset finale is strangely unaffecting.

 

There is enjoyment to be found here in TFA, but the description "fan film" holds more truth than people would think.

I'd give it 3/5.

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Adding to this my experience of watching The Last Jedi.

 

To sum up a major major portion of this film in one sentence: it feels like watching a 2-part episode of Star Trek Next Generation, until the last 20 minutes on Crait.

Holdo is such a Star Trek character, and Finn and Rose leading a mission on a planet, trying to find the new Lando, and Poe playing Ryker ... And the situation with the two opposing fleets. I know the First Order just needs to wait until the Rebellion runs out of fuel, but can't they just, you know, chase the Rebellion and destroy them? As it is, the whole premise of the film relies on the fact that Hux and Kylo Ren just let the Rebellion stay out of firing range for no reason whatsoever, aka stupidity.

 

2.5/5

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If The Last Jedi were a mission in TIE Fighter, it'd be the easiest ever. One tiny TIE squadron should have made mincemeat of that escaping fleet. 

 

Or at least, Hux should have split his fleet and sent some ships to the far side of Crait even before knowing it was their destination. It had to be on their long range scanners as a point of interest on the Rebels' trajectory. Some place to hide and yell BOO. 

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Another gaping plot hole in TFA:  if Luke didn't want to be found, where does the piece of the map come from? From who? And why does R2 have the map as well? The one making the small puzzle piece is the same guy who programmed the incomplete map into R2.

 

And most importantly: Luke seems to have trained Kylo Ren on the same island Rey meets him. So, why the FUCK does Ren need any kind of map to find Luke? HE'S RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT HIM, you dimwit!

 

 

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1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

And most importantly: Luke seems to have trained Kylo Ren on the same island Rey meets him. So, why the FUCK does Ren need any kind of map to find Luke? HE'S RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT HIM, you dimwit!

 

That is never once stated in the film, nor is it accurate. Please get your facts right if you're going to make such critical censures like that.

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1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

Another gaping plot hole in TFA:  if Luke didn't want to be found, where does the piece of the map come from? From who? And why does R2 have the map as well? The one making the small puzzle piece is the same guy who programmed the incomplete map into R2.

 

And most importantly: Luke seems to have trained Kylo Ren on the same island Rey meets him. So, why the FUCK does Ren need any kind of map to find Luke? HE'S RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT HIM, you dimwit!

 

 

 

The map exists as a map to the first Jedi temple.   Luke is rumored to be there, so everybody is digging for it.  That’s explicit (text, not subtext) in TFA.

 

The Artoo stuff is lamer (all of the TFA Artoo stuff is lame), but I think the idea is that the “map to Luke” was the McGuffin, but without context of the maps from the Imperial Archive that Artoo had, they couldn’t place the planet.

 

Luke exiled himself to Ach To after the Knights of Ren destroyed his temple somewhere else.

 

 

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On 1/16/2018 at 4:25 AM, gkgyver said:

So, since I got the Force Awakens Bluray as a gift yesterday, I figured why not watch it. Two years late, but still. And since I have been invited to watch Last Jedi, too, next weekend, just some thoughts and general impressions.

I don't think I will watch this film again, there is not much to go back to.

This is such a weird film, and the plot is contrived as shit. At first, I didn't think I would make it through half of it, because the first 25-30 minutes or so tick just about every box of movie clichees in the book, and I figured if this goes on like that, I may as well switch off.

 

The movie instantly gets more entertaining when Han Solo appears, which unfortunately hinders any genuine chemistry Finn and Rey just started to nurture together.

To be bold, I think Han and Leia could have been dropped from the film entirely as far as the plot is concerned, and replaced with new characters. The subplot of Kylo Ren being their son, and the subsequent conversation about "there is still good in him" is pure cringe. As is the statement that Han is the father Rey never had. WTF? They spend maybe two days together, a week tops, and all she comes across as is a fangirl of his. 

 

The movie is too fixated on nostalgia for its own good. The constant line dropping from old films is annoying (especially Rey Force-guiding her way out of imprisonment), and in places where they really should have adressed the past, they don't do it. Like that irritating scene of the General reinacting Saruman's war rallying from Two Towers, talking about overthrowing the Republic. 

Why? Didn't they think it was necessary to at least partially explain what happened to the Republic? There's the Republic, the First Order, the Rebellion - what the fuck is going on? What happened to the Clone Army of stormtroopers, which Hux clearly refers to as nonexistent anymore. Name-dropping "Sith" and "Vader" doesn't do.

Speaking of Vader, if the First Order is demonizing the Republic for their own goals, why would Ren try to walk in Vader's footsteps? Wasn't Vader pretty much the poster boy of the Republic? My head hurts ...

How about including some backstory instead of doing a dumb "Rathtars" scene? Of course they eat everybody at first glance, but for some reason decide to just take Finn hostage instead.

 

Also, this film always uses the same plot device to get the characters from A to B to C to D: "The First Order! Run!" 

I can't even count the number of coincidences this movie requires you to just swallow in Order to enjoy it. 

The Millennium Falcon happens to be on Jakku.

Rey just happens to find BB 8.

Rey just happens to find the Stormtrooper pilot that just happens to know the pilot that sent the droid.

Han Solo just happens to find the girl who happened to find the guy who knows the guy who happened to give the Skywalker map to the droid, that happens to be found by the same girl, who also happens to be the heir of the force. What?

Solo then takes Rey to the place that just happens to have Luke's lightsaber in a dirty basement, without Han even knowing! WHAT?

Then in the middle of a gigantic forest planet, Rey of course just walks right into the arms of Kylo Ren. Sure.

R2 just happens to reactivate.

The destruction of the Starkiller also lacks a moment of clear triumph, something like Yay we won! It just sort of happens.

 

The guy playing Ren reminds me of Alan Rickman every time.

Rey's character is confusingly drawn. There are two moments that make her vivid and relatable, the first one being when she puts on the helmet after a day's work in the beginning, the second one when she says "I didn't know there was so much green in the universe" or something.

Her discovery of the Force is as confusing as it's abrupt.

 

Speaking of the force, I can't help but think that Williams missed the opportunity to write a theme for literally the awakening of the Force. It's referenced numerous times. Just using the Force theme comes across in the film as it does on album: uninspired. Would lend itself to wonderful moments like Rey standing before Luke. The Binary Sunset finale is strangely unaffecting.

 

There is enjoyment to be found here in TFA, but the description "fan film" holds more truth than people would think.

I'd give it 3/5.

 

9 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Adding to this my experience of watching The Last Jedi.

 

To sum up a major major portion of this film in one sentence: it feels like watching a 2-part episode of Star Trek Next Generation, until the last 20 minutes on Crait.

Holdo is such a Star Trek character, and Finn and Rose leading a mission on a planet, trying to find the new Lando, and Poe playing Ryker ... And the situation with the two opposing fleets. I know the First Order just needs to wait until the Rebellion runs out of fuel, but can't they just, you know, chase the Rebellion and destroy them? As it is, the whole premise of the film relies on the fact that Hux and Kylo Ren just let the Rebellion stay out of firing range for no reason whatsoever, aka stupidity.

 

2.5/5

 

6 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Another gaping plot hole in TFA:  if Luke didn't want to be found, where does the piece of the map come from? From who? And why does R2 have the map as well? The one making the small puzzle piece is the same guy who programmed the incomplete map into R2.

 

And most importantly: Luke seems to have trained Kylo Ren on the same island Rey meets him. So, why the FUCK does Ren need any kind of map to find Luke? HE'S RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT HIM, you dimwit!

 

 

 

Don't mince words. What do you really think?

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:25 PM, gkgyver said:

So, since I got the Force Awakens Bluray as a gift yesterday, I figured why not watch it. Two years late, but still. And since I have been invited to watch Last Jedi, too, next weekend, just some thoughts and general impressions.

I don't think I will watch this film again, there is not much to go back to.

This is such a weird film, and the plot is contrived as shit. At first, I didn't think I would make it through half of it, because the first 25-30 minutes or so tick just about every box of movie clichees in the book, and I figured if this goes on like that, I may as well switch off.

 

The movie instantly gets more entertaining when Han Solo appears, which unfortunately hinders any genuine chemistry Finn and Rey just started to nurture together.

To be bold, I think Han and Leia could have been dropped from the film entirely as far as the plot is concerned, and replaced with new characters. The subplot of Kylo Ren being their son, and the subsequent conversation about "there is still good in him" is pure cringe. As is the statement that Han is the father Rey never had. WTF? They spend maybe two days together, a week tops, and all she comes across as is a fangirl of his. 

 

The movie is too fixated on nostalgia for its own good. The constant line dropping from old films is annoying (especially Rey Force-guiding her way out of imprisonment), and in places where they really should have adressed the past, they don't do it. Like that irritating scene of the General reinacting Saruman's war rallying from Two Towers, talking about overthrowing the Republic. 

Why? Didn't they think it was necessary to at least partially explain what happened to the Republic? There's the Republic, the First Order, the Rebellion - what the fuck is going on? What happened to the Clone Army of stormtroopers, which Hux clearly refers to as nonexistent anymore. Name-dropping "Sith" and "Vader" doesn't do.

Speaking of Vader, if the First Order is demonizing the Republic for their own goals, why would Ren try to walk in Vader's footsteps? Wasn't Vader pretty much the poster boy of the Republic? My head hurts ...

How about including some backstory instead of doing a dumb "Rathtars" scene? Of course they eat everybody at first glance, but for some reason decide to just take Finn hostage instead.

 

Also, this film always uses the same plot device to get the characters from A to B to C to D: "The First Order! Run!" 

I can't even count the number of coincidences this movie requires you to just swallow in Order to enjoy it. 

The Millennium Falcon happens to be on Jakku.

Rey just happens to find BB 8.

Rey just happens to find the Stormtrooper pilot that just happens to know the pilot that sent the droid.

Han Solo just happens to find the girl who happened to find the guy who knows the guy who happened to give the Skywalker map to the droid, that happens to be found by the same girl, who also happens to be the heir of the force. What?

Solo then takes Rey to the place that just happens to have Luke's lightsaber in a dirty basement, without Han even knowing! WHAT?

Then in the middle of a gigantic forest planet, Rey of course just walks right into the arms of Kylo Ren. Sure.

R2 just happens to reactivate.

The destruction of the Starkiller also lacks a moment of clear triumph, something like Yay we won! It just sort of happens.

 

The guy playing Ren reminds me of Alan Rickman every time.

Rey's character is confusingly drawn. There are two moments that make her vivid and relatable, the first one being when she puts on the helmet after a day's work in the beginning, the second one when she says "I didn't know there was so much green in the universe" or something.

Her discovery of the Force is as confusing as it's abrupt.

 

Speaking of the force, I can't help but think that Williams missed the opportunity to write a theme for literally the awakening of the Force. It's referenced numerous times. Just using the Force theme comes across in the film as it does on album: uninspired. Would lend itself to wonderful moments like Rey standing before Luke. The Binary Sunset finale is strangely unaffecting.

 

There is enjoyment to be found here in TFA, but the description "fan film" holds more truth than people would think.

I'd give it 3/5.

 

 

You know what?  I more or less agree with everything you say.  How about that.

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I could also add that TLJ only highlights the problems of TFA because not a single question that arose in TFA is explained in it. Ever. It only adds questions on top that more than likely will never be answered in Episode IX.

I get it, it's escapist entertainment. But even suspension of disbelief has its limits when you're slapped in the face with obvious plot holes time and time again.

 

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3 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

I could also add that TLJ only highlights the problems of TFA because not a single question that arose in TFA is explained in it. Ever. It only adds questions on top that more than likely will never be answered in Episode IX.

 

Yup.  It's like Rian Johnson had no interest in anything JJ Abrams came up with, so just wrote it all off and told his own story.

 

And JJ is likely to do the same thing right back to him in Ep 9!

 

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The Star Wars prequels are at least unique stories, and didn't try to just mimick the beats of the OT.   But those stories are so horribly realized on screen in just about every way, it ends up not mattering

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

And JJ is likely to do the same thing right back to him in Ep 9!

 

I certainly hope so.

 

And the prequels do make more sense (words I never thought I'd type) and are more original than TLJ.

 

I'll never be a fan the prequels, but the new movies, especially this last one, has made me appreciate more that Lucas was at least trying to do something new.

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The prequels make sense? The most iconic movie villain of the last forty years fell to the Dark Side because he loved his mommy, wanted to stop his wife from dying, and because his teachers were holding him back in school. And this makes sense? 

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14 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

I certainly hope so.

 

And the prequels do make more sense (words I never thought I'd type) and are more original than TLJ.

 

I'll never be a fan the prequels, but the new movies, especially this last one, has made me appreciate more that Lucas was at least trying to do something new.

 

I am glad to see even someone who isn't a prequel fan acknowledge this! :P

 

I love the prequels, flaws and all, because I think Lucas had a bold, inventive vision that expanded the universe in myriad ways whilst retaining continuity and symmetry with the OT. Although it is generally well made and has a lot of things I love, I can't say the new trilogy is doing either of those things very well. It's almost as if they don't have an overarching plan and don't really know what they are doing...Oh wait, they've admitted as much!

 

But whilst they are messy behind the scenes, they also lack the creative energy that Lucas brought to the table in the prequels. Yeah, he needed fewer yes-men and some co-writers and directors and editors who would clean up his vision. But at least he had a vision!

 

TFA is a very perfect JJ movie but it is insufferably unimaginative and worst of all in my mind, it lacks the detail and interest in worldbuilding that the prequels brought. The OT is a masterpiece of course, but what the prequels did was flesh out the tiny world of rebels vs. Vader and create a giant universe you could live in. It was a universe that worked, that had a political system, different species, different aspects...Yeah people complain about there being too much politics, but personally I just wanted slightly better written politics. I think it only enriches the Star Wars world to actually know how it works. It makes it come alive. TFA backtracked on this fleshing out and just miniaturised the world of Star Wars again. Maybe the worst thing that happened in all Star Wars history to me is the destruction of the 'New Republic' by the new bloody Death Star (Starkiller Base). At that moment I just felt..well, I wasn't even clear there was a new republic, why the hell has Leia got nothing to do with it, what the hell is the First Order, why oh why JJ have you decided to diminish this world back to where it started rather than expand it.

 

Then TLJ comes along and in fairness, does try to flesh things out a bit more. It's one reason I actually don't hate Canto Bight (though structurally and plot-wise it is a total mess and does not work). But he just messes around with everything TFA set up. Maybe my second least favourite part of the whole saga is Luke throwing away that lightsaber and dumping all over TFA's ending for the sake of a cheap joke. Because they are playing 'pass-the-story' and there is no plan and so now Rian Johnson has muddled up the bland and narrow narrative that JJ Abrams set up...and yet he hasn't really opened up anything new because by the end of TLJ, everyone is pretty much where you expect them to be and I'm left not massively excited for Episode IX.

 

I need to stop ranting. 

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38 minutes ago, idril said:

I love the prequels, flaws and all, because I think Lucas had a bold, inventive vision that expanded the universe in myriad ways whilst retaining continuity and symmetry with the OT. Although it is generally well made and has a lot of things I love, I can't say the new trilogy is doing either of those things very well. It's almost as if they don't have an overarching plan and don't really know what they are doing...Oh wait, they've admitted as much![...]But at least he had a vision!

 

To say that Lucas had a vision for an overarching plot of even just the first ("original") trilogy as he was making it, is untrue.

 

When he made Star Wars, he wasn't planning on revealing Vader to be Luke's father. When he wrote the story outline (not the script, which he didn't write) for Empire Strikes Back, he didn't intend for Leia to be Luke's sister. When he co-wrote Return of the Jedi he didn't envision Obi Wan meeting Anakin when the latter was a young boy, and when he wrote The Phantom Menace he didn't envision Count Dooku, and when he wrote Attack of the Clones, he didn't envision General Grievous or even the manner in which Anakin's Immolation eventually came to be. Originally, he was hoping to stretch the conflict of the first two films over six films: that's where the concept of the sequel trilogy came from.

 

So Disney not having their entries planned out isn't new, in the slightest. Its true of just about any film series whose episodes aren't all scripted and shot simultaneously, which is only true of the Middle Earth trilogies, which are based on pre-existing source material.

 

You could argue that Disney should have done that with Star Wars (I sure do) but you can't say that they didn't where Lucas did. It was never going to make a good nine-film marathon watch.

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1 hour ago, Woj said:

The prequels make sense? The most iconic movie villain of the last forty years fell to the Dark Side because he loved his mommy, wanted to stop his wife from dying, and because his teachers were holding him back in school. And this makes sense? 

 

Yes.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

You could argue that Disney should have done that with Star Wars (I sure do) but you can't say that they didn't where Lucas did.

 

They didn't do what Lucas did.

 

The distinction is that Disney is apparently letting the individual directors decide where they'll take the story, which is why there was such a dramatic shift in TLJ from TFA. The second film has very little to do with the first when you come right down to it. It really doesn't build on what came before so much as it resets the whole thing.  They're not only making it up as they go along, it's being made up by someone new each time.

 

The distinction with the OT and PT is that, while those were made up as they went along as well (more or less), it was for the most part one man doing the making up and conceptualising the story, which meant that each film built upon the last in terms of plot, character and overall narrative arc. Other people may have written some of the scripts, but those stories were mostly George Lucas (flaws and all). For better or worse, the first six films shared a common vision of one man...the story's creator. That's a huge difference vs. the haphazard approach Disney is taking.

 

It's in this way that I think Kennedy is failing Star Wars.  I frankly think Lucasfilm would be better served having someone creative run it, more along the lines of Feige at Marvel, who knows where the overall story is heading and has a plan on how to get there. 

 

The rest of your post is more or less true in terms of how Star Wars evolved.

 

 

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I couldn't care less how a director implements his own style into a new SW film.

But to not even have a proper story arc laid out for the trilogy from beginning, is monumentally stupid. TLJ adds absolutely nothing, zero, to the story.

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2 hours ago, Woj said:

The prequels make sense? The most iconic movie villain of the last forty years fell to the Dark Side because he loved his mommy, wanted to stop his wife from dying, and because his teachers were holding him back in school. And this makes sense? 

 

Well frankly, yes.

 

The basic story is actually beautiful, and somewhat at operatic (especially Episode III). It's a great story. Not in terms of things like wise-cracking battle droids and Jar Jar and Midicholrians...but the overall beats of the story and over reaching arc, which is solid. The problem is in the execution.

 

49 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

I couldn't care less how a director implements his own style into a new SW film.

But to not even have a proper story arc laid out for the trilogy from beginning, is monumentally stupid. TLJ adds absolutely nothing, zero, to the story.

 

That's more or less my point. Style is one thing, I'm fine with different styles. But the story should not be left to the whims of whoever is next up at bat.

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Oh sure, Lucas didn't have every beat of the Star Wars OT or Prequel Trilogy planned out. No way. He did a lot of improvising, like anyone does when they are writing and planning something over a long period of time. If you're writing a series of novels then you would take years to plan and then write and edit a whole trilogy and the same goes for movies.

 

When I say vision I really mean a creative unity that comes from having one man's imagination as a guiding force. Essentially I agree with Nick's post. My problem is they are doing improv wrong. The rule in improv is 'yes, and...'

 

I write stories collaboratively a lot and it is the same principle. You can't throw out what the previous writer did. You service the story, not your own ego, and you try and improve what the last writer did, absolutely, but by enriching and embellishing, not throwing things away. You also don't shut the story down so the next writer has a hard time knowing what to do. That's my problem with Johnson and my problem with JJ is that he is just safe and locked into the Original Trilogy mindset. Lucas never limited his own vision for Star Wars, and he had a vision - ever-changing, sure, stories evolve - but it was a vision.

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6 minutes ago, idril said:

When I say vision I really mean a creative unity that comes from having one man's imagination as a guiding force.

 

6 minutes ago, idril said:

Lucas never limited his own vision for Star Wars, and he had a vision - ever-changing, sure, stories evolve - but it was a vision.

 

In every revolution there's one man with a vision.

 

6 minutes ago, idril said:

You service the story, not your own ego, and you try and improve what the last writer did, absolutely, but by enriching and embellishing, not throwing things away. You also don't shut the story down so the next writer has a hard time knowing what to do. That's my problem with Johnson and my problem with JJ is that he is just safe and locked into the Original Trilogy mindset. 

 

Here is wisdom.

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32 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

The distinction with the OT and PT is that, while those were made up as they went along as well (more or less), it was for the most part one man doing the making up and conceptualising the story, which meant that each film built upon the last in terms of plot, character and overall narrative arc. Other people may have written some of the scripts, but those stories were mostly George Lucas. The first six films shared a common vision of one man...the story's creator.

 

 

The story outline does very little to define the actual film. Its the script and the on-set direction that does. That's what imbues a film with actual pace, stakes, emotional core, action, humor, visual style, etc...

 

So, to me, Empire Strikes Back also feels like it doesn't belong with the rest of the films, in terms of tone and style. That's because, essentially, it isn't George Lucas' vision, from a cinematic standpoint.

 

The difference compared to The Last Jedi is that Kirshner didn't go out of his way to defy the film that came before his, whereas Rian Johnson - did.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

The story outline does very little to define the actual film. Its the script, and the on-set direction that does.

 

So, to me, Empire Strikes Back also feels like it doesn't belong with the rest of the films, in terms of tone and style. Because it isn't George Lucas vision, from a cinematic standpoint.

 

The difference with The Last Jedi is that Kirshner didn't go out of his way to defy the film that came before his, whereas Rian Johnson - did.

 

This just isn't true...as least in the case of Star Wars. Irvin Kershner didn't have the authority to have Han Solo use the force or Darth Vader turn out to be a rebel spy. Kersh didn't go out of his way to do things like that because he couldn't. And any story ideas he did have would have to be approved by Lucas.

 

And no one is talking about "style"...Kersh certainly brought his own style (and it was most welcome). But in terms of where the story was going, that was Lucas. As were the other 5 episodes.

 

The Star Wars movies were like episodes of TV shows, and Lucas was the show runner. The show runner decides where they story is going. That is decidedly not what's happening with the Disney movies.

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9 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

In every revolution there's one man with a vision.

Here is wisdom.

Nick I've noticed you're the only person round here I always seem to be roughly in agreement with.. Maybe it's a British thing! Surely there must be something we are viciously divided on. Perhaps you find Jerry Goldsmith overrated? Or you think JJ Abrams captured the true spirit of Star Trek?! I'll bet there's something we can argue about!

 

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

The story outline does very little to define the actual film. Its the script, and the on-set direction that does.

 

So, to me, Empire Strikes Back also feels like it doesn't belong with the rest of the films, in terms of tone and style. Because it isn't George Lucas vision, from a cinematic standpoint.

 

The difference with The Last Jedi is that Kirshner didn't go out of his way to defy the film that came before his, whereas Rian Johnson - did.

You know I will actually agree here that Empire sits a little uneasily with the others in terms of style but I can't fault it because it is such a damn fine film. Also, the story flows quite sensibly from the first movie so it isn't such a big deal.

 

But yeah, Rian Johnson was very deliberate - basically explicit - about defying what came before and that just doesn't work. I wouldn't mind so much that Johnson's film has a different visual flair to TFA. I like that, actually. And in case I'm coming off as a total Rian-Johnson-ruined-my-life type, I must say I think it's aesthetically striking and in many ways beautiful film. However, it's the narrative awkwardness that bugs me so much between these films. And not just between those films but especially how it utterly fails to establish anything interesting for the final film in the trilogy.

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Again, I'm looking at it less in terms of the bare bones of the plot, and more in terms of the cinematic vision.

 

In that sense, the first trilogy is not a cohesive work, either.

 

Its not as pronounced as it is with Disney, but nevertheless its true.

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12 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Again, I'm looking at it less in terms of the bare bones of the plot, and more in terms of the cinematic vision.

 

In that sense, the first trilogy is also not a cohesive work, either.

 

Its not as pronounced as it is with Disney, but nevertheless its true.

 

Except in your previous post you were talking about specifically about plot.  You mention "plot' and "story", but not style or cinematic vision a single time...

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

To say that Lucas had a vision for an overarching plot of even just the first ("original") trilogy as he was making it, is untrue.

 

When he made Star Wars, he wasn't planning on revealing Vader to be Luke's father. When he wrote the story outline (not the script, which he didn't write) for Empire Strikes Back, he didn't intend for Leia to be Luke's sister. When he co-wrote Return of the Jedi he didn't envision Obi Wan meeting Anakin when the latter was a young boy, and when he wrote The Phantom Menace he didn't envision Count Dooku, and when he wrote Attack of the Clones, he didn't envision General Grievous or even the manner in which Anakin's Immolation eventually came to be. Originally, he was hoping to stretch the conflict of the first two films over six films: that's where the concept of the sequel trilogy came from.

 

So Disney not having their entries planned out isn't new, in the slightest. Its true of just about any film series whose episodes aren't all scripted and shot simultaneously, which is only true of the Middle Earth trilogies, which are based on pre-existing source material.

 

 

If your point now is about the how SW, Empire and Jedi are cinematically different in terms of style, well that I agree with. But that's not what you said originally. And in any event, you certainly can't say that about the PT.

 

 

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Yeah, those are truly Lucas' vision, and because they were building towards the original Star Wars, he had the basic contour of the plot figured out: Anakin studies to be a Jedi, falls in love against the will of the order, tries to save his love from an ill-fate only to become the instrument of her demise and fall into darkness.

 

But they don't sit well with the first trilogy, even after his attempts to retrofit those. I first watched them in the narrative order and when I watched the original Star Wars it was abundantly clear to me, a newcomer to the series, that, in that film, Anakin and Vader clearly aren't supposed to be the same person. When I got to Return of the Jedi and heard Ben describe his meeting with Anakin or Padme describing memories of her mother - and it just doesn't sit very well with the prequels.

 

Also, it just doesn't work as a marathon viewing for new, uninformed audiences, because the surprise of Empire Strikes Back is spoiled in Revenge of the Sith. And again: the aesthetic and cinematic vision are very, very different between the two trilogies and even within each trilogy. Revenge of the Sith feels like its of a completely different mold to the previous two.

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3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Also, it just doesn't work as a marathon viewing for new, uninformed audiences, because the surprise of Empire Strikes Back is spoiled in Revenge of the Sith.

 

Yeah it does - which is why I would probably only recommend narrative order for rewatches. I think on a first go round, you've got to start with Episode IV. Of course there is always the option of IV-V-I-II-II-VI! So it avoids the spoiler and you have basically an extended flashback between Empire and the final battle.

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