The Last Jedi THE LAST JEDI - OST Album MUSIC Discussion (No Movie Spoilers)

[Balahkay 627]

If it's a new rendition of an old theme, it's new. 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Isn't this website meant for people that like John Williams' music?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

52 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Is not this website and chat group setup to honor and praise JW and the greatest of soundtrack?

 

Yes, criticism is not allowed.

[Chen G. 3,943]

8 hours ago, Jerry said:

SENSELESS HUMAN BEING: I didn't like Empire because I heard that Binary Sunset again. I'm really upset about the lack of purity in the "new" soundtrack.

 

Empire is a score based firmly in new thematic material: with the Imperial March, Love theme, Yoda’s theme, Cloud City, Boba Fett as well as plenty of none-thematic setpieces like the Asteroid Field And Battle of Hoth.

 

The Last Jedi has less in the way of new material, leitmotivic or otherwise. Also, where in Empire a lot of the existing themes are very varied (Luke's in minor, etc) in The Last Jedi they are often very fimiliar: Not just Binary Sunset but also lifts from the concert arrangements of Leia, Vader and Yoda, to name just a few, some fimiliar statements of Rey's theme, etc...

[filmmusic 1,823]

7 hours ago, Jerry said:

Is not this website and chat group setup to honor and praise JW and the greatest of soundtrack?

I thought it's for constructive criticism and debate too.

 

Praising everything a man does, whoever that is, doesn't seem very healthy to me and certainly doesn't promote "thought".

[crumbs 14,300]

Complaining about TLJ's use of older themes is like complaining about the Force Theme in Losing A Hand from ESB because it's a theme he wrote for ANH.

 

Williams' usage of existing themes in TLJ, most notably TFA themes, is undeniably masterful. Retrospectively it'd be nice to think he was intentionally holding back on TFA from developing the new themes to their fullest potential (which is unusual for Williams and more in line with what Shore did for LOTR -- a concept I was hounded down about because, "Williams just doesn't develop themes that way.")

 

Personally I think it's more likely his health condition on TFA prevented him from extrapolating upon those themes to their fullest potential in TFA, but TLJ's plotting (taking place directly after TFA) conveniently allowed him to write music he probably intended for TFA. Regardless of your thoughts on the score, it's undeniable that TLJ is filled with energy and vibrancy that TFA often lacks, resulting in a restrained score which, in hindsight, works perfectly as an introductory score to a new trilogy of scores.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I said it several times: its a far more extrovert score, yes.

 

But the comparison to Empire Strikes Back is unwarranted: There's so much new thematic material in there, that you don't mind the existing themes popping up here and there. In The Last Jedi, existing material makes a much larger portion of the score, in a way that is very uncharacteristic to Williams.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

You seem awfully occupied on pinning Williams for using old themes in a new score.

[Chen G. 3,943]

2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

You seem awfully occupied on pinning Williams for using old themes in a new score.

 

I'm not occupied with this, Williams is!

 

In his serialized scores, he always, ALWAYS stresses that each new score is based predominatly on new themes. Its just weird to see him just about abandon that rule with this score.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Edit

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I suppose if you're up to your eighth score in a single franchise (whoops, don't call it that, or else zealous SW fans will howl for blood), you've probably said all that needs to be said with your music.

[Balahkay 627]

From what I gather, the use of existing themes was intentional.  Whether that was decided by Rian, Williams, combination of both, I don't know.  Regardless, it was a creative decision and, IMO, doesn't affect the score in a negative way.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Edit

[Demodex 557]

All I'm saying is IMO the score for TLJ is repetitive in a boring way instead if in an interesting way. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

19 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Look. Whose in TLJ?

 

Snoke, Kylo Ren, Rey, Luke, Ach-To Island, the Resistance, the First Order, Leia, the Millenium Falcon, etc.

 

Don't all these things have themes already?

What do you want Williams to do? Start over?.

 

Composers find ways to keep things fresh even when the film doesn't introduce too many new narrative elements. 

 

I think the source of the issue is that Williams didn't write a lot of new leitmotives for this film, so he couldn't fill the score with them and had to fall back on the prexisting themes.

 

Its not beyond Williams to write a new theme to an existing character.

[filmmusic 1,823]

26 minutes ago, Denise Bryson said:

I suppose if you're up to your eighth score in a single franchise (whoops, don't call it that, or else zealous SW fans will howl for blood), you've probably said all that needs to be said with your music.

couldn't agree more!

 

[Balahkay 627]

Just watch, Williams will now win the Oscar for TLJ. 

[John 2,032]

Honestly, I'd be somewhat surprised if he didn't win the Oscar. Aside from Phantom Thread, none of the competition this year has really stood out much.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Williams has zero chance of winning even if we all prefer TLJ (or if we don’t, as for some.)

[SteveMc 2,674]

4 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

Williams has zero chance of winning even if we all prefer TLJ (or if we don’t, as for some.)

The Oscars lately have been putting hype above art.  TLJ is, for all its weaknesses, superior to most if not all of what was written this year.  The Shape of Water has the hype, and Desplat is not a hack.    

[Balahkay 627]

Desplat just won one in 2015, will they give him another one so soon?

[SteveMc 2,674]

1 minute ago, someonefun124 said:

Desplat just won one in 2015, will they give him another one so soon?

If they're inclined to do so.   

[filmmusic 1,823]

6 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

Desplat just won one in 2015, will they give him another one so soon?

Santaollala won 2 in a row. (and the second for material already previously released)

[Balahkay 627]

Ah, yes.  The year Williams was robbed of winning.

[gkgyver 1,645]

42 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

The Oscars lately have been putting hype above art.  TLJ is, for all its weaknesses, superior to most if not all of what was written this year.  The Shape of Water has the hype, and Desplat is not a hack.    

 

It's not necessary to stress elusive unwritten rules for the Oscars, them being about hype and the hyped film's score just tagging along, or something.

 

There were plenty of years when Williams should have won and didn't, especially for 2005, but in 2018, it's just basic: other scores are just far more original than The Last Jedi.

 

In that sense, if the unwritten Oscar rule of an inferior score winning holds true, then I suppose TLJ does have a shot.

 

Also, is it fair to say you are out of your mind if you compare TLJ to ESB? Of the post-1977 Williams scores, it's tough to find another pair of scores where the difference in originality and quality is that significant.

[Score 770]

4 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Santaollala won 2 in a row. (and the second for material already previously released)

 

We should at least try to forget 

[SteveMc 2,674]

1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

 

It's not necessary to stress elusive unwritten rules for the Oscars, them being about hype and the hyped film's score just tagging along, or something.

 

There were plenty of years when Williams should have won and didn't, especially for 2005, but in 2018, it's just basic: other scores are just far more original than The Last Jedi.

 

In that sense, if the unwritten Oscar rule of an inferior score winning holds true, then I suppose TLJ does have a shot.

 

Also, is it fair to say you are out of your mind if you compare TLJ to ESB? Of the post-1977 Williams scores, it's tough to find another pair of scores where the difference in originality and quality is that significant.

ESB is Williams's greatest Star Wars score, one of his top scores period, and on the short list for best film score, if not ever then certainly of the past 50 years.  It is a classic, an actual great piece of music in the tone poem vein. 

TLJ is a decent film score.  It does not transcend.  

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I think The Last Jedi can be transcendent and not the best Star Wars score.  They’re not mutually exclusive.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Nothing in TLJ has the ability to transcend.

Because it was already present in TFA, and it didn't transcend there, either.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Edit: In response to @Taikomochi

 

Yes, but in this case, I wouldn't say The Last Jedi "transcends" for the most part (as if it was an angel on Earth that must find its staircase to heaven). I enjoy quite a lot of The Last Jedi's music to quite an extent, but overall I get a certain self-awareness in this score from John Williams that I haven't quite heard before. Elements that make it seem like he's thinking, "Gee, how fun is it that I'm scoring another Star Wars motion picture and writing more Star WarsTM music." Like in all the dramatic moments he'll score with minor triad trumpet fanfares...it's cute.

 

Though Empire Strikes Back is not my favorite, the opening several cues really take me on a very enveloping and absorbing journey...as I said before, you wouldn't believe he thought of scoring Star Wars as a fun kiddie's adventure from just how powerful and deep the music could get. Sadly, those moments are few in The Last Jedi. 

 

[Balahkay 627]

Was TESB considered transcendent at the time of the release or did it become acknowledged as such over time?  Sure, it was nominated for an Oscar but then the voters gave the win to Fame.

[SteveMc 2,674]

TESB was one of the scores that really established Williams's reputation as a consummate composer. 

As Nick says above, Williams was really creating something deep back then.  He was forging a new path.

[crumbs 14,300]

I must have stumbled into an alternate universe of willful ignorance, where people simply ignore the actual contents of the score when critiquing it. The same universe where Rose's Theme, Holdo's Theme and Luke's Exile Theme don't exist, where they don't feature in a bounty of variations throughout the film in unreleased cues, alongside a further handful of new motifs that reoccur throughout the complete score.

 

I understand people being disappointed in the score as presented on album (I could do without the multiple appearances of Yoda's Theme in favour of unreleased Holdo material), as it created a very skewed representation of the score's material. Yes, it's undeniable the score relied more on existing themes than TFA did (which Williams claims only had 7 minutes of existing material), but to outright trash the entire score when you could just as easily create an alternate 78 minute presentation of only new material, is just being ignorant. You could just as easily create alternate OSTs for 4 or 5 of the other sequels which skew the ratio of new vs old.

 

Regardless, the film features an undeniable synergy between music and imagery, again embarrassing the output of his contemporaries and exceeding what he achieved with TFA (and I always thought that score fit the film like a glove, but the edits and crappy mix do it a huge disservice). If the level of craft on display in cues like Holdo's Resolve, Escape or The Spark is now considered "mediocre" film scoring, examples of "great" modern film cues must be truly orgasmic.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

5 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Nothing in TLJ has the ability to transcend.

Because it was already present in TFA, and it didn't transcend there, either.

 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Any John Williams win is a good thing in my book, though I'd rather it be for literally any other Williams Oscar nomination.  

[Chen G. 3,943]

7 hours ago, crumbs said:

I must have stumbled into an alternate universe of willful ignorance, where people simply ignore the actual contents of the score when critiquing it. The same universe where Rose's Theme, Holdo's Theme and Luke's Exile Theme don't exist, where they don't feature in a bounty of variations throughout the film in unreleased cues, alongside a further handful of new motifs that reoccur throughout the complete score.

 

I understand people being disappointed in the score as presented on album.

 

My memory of the score as presented in the film isn't much different. Still a lot of old material. If it were any different, Williams will have arranged his OST differently. But the full score is constructed such that creating an OST presentation that isn't based on old material became an impossibility.

 

Oh, and Williams generally constructs his OSTs so that all the leitmotives are represented on album and/or end-credits. There is no "further handful of new motifs." There are the three motifs you mentioned, and there's material regarding the First Order which, I think, first gets restated in this score. Unless we go into the realms of over-analysis, than that's it. c'est tout.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I wouldn't mind the OT material so much if it was at least newly orchestrated.

[Jurassic Shark 12,029]

At least it's a new orchestra, although not for the better.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's the same stuff repackaged with inferior performance connected by uninteresting filler music.

 

Certain people here said more or less the same thing about ROTS. It wasn't true then. It's not always true here, but it frequently is. TLJ is very KOTCS-esque.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

1 hour ago, Philippe Roaché said:

It's the same stuff repackaged with inferior performance connected by uninteresting filler music.

 

Certain people here said more or less the same thing about ROTS. It wasn't true then. It's not always true here, but it frequently is. TLJ is very KOTCS-esque.

1

 

Oooh, now, see, I wouldn't go that far. I think, for example, if you compare the action music between the two, TLJ's cues have an energy and vibrance to them that KOTCS (aside from maybeThe Jungle Chase and variations) never really approaches and ultimately prevents me from putting the two scores in the same bin. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Yep.

 

Its a mixed bag, for me. But there's no need to be carried away in the criticism.

 

I really like the fuller sound of the orchestra!

[gkgyver 1,645]

KotCS had at least 3 concert arrangements, Mutt, Irina, Crystal Skull, had setpieces with the Snake Pit and Whirl Through Academe, and had very good Russian villain music.

 

All of the above is superior to TLJ.

[Chen G. 3,943]

Again, I can't fully separate my enjoyment of the film and the score. I liked The Last Jedi reasonably well; I didn't like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull at all.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

 

I'm so confused!

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

TLJ vs. KOTCS  6 - 0

[Loert 2,510]

I hated KOTCS after listening to the soundtrack album. But after listening to the full score my opinion of the score changed drastically. It is now one of my favourite JW scores from the '00s. 

 

TLJ I still haven't warmed to fully (although I admit I haven't tried that hard). 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Why do the quiet cues from KOTCS get so much hate?

[Demodex 557]

Because they're boring, like TLJ. 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

 

[filmmusic 1,823]

3 hours ago, gkgyver said:

KotCS had at least 3 concert arrangements, Mutt, Irina, Crystal Skull, had setpieces with the Snake Pit and Whirl Through Academe, and had very good Russian villain music.

 

All of the above is superior to TLJ.

KotCS had a superb theme (Irina's theme) which if it had been composed for a film-noir of the 50s it would be classic now!

By the way, the ost didn't have a concert arrangement of this theme.

it was just 2 cues (I think?) together?

The real concert arrangement hasn't been officially released from what i remember