The Last Jedi THE LAST JEDI - OST Album MUSIC Discussion (No Movie Spoilers)

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Yeah I believe the OST track is an editorial creation, combining an early film cue with part of the credits suite.

 

Then he made a proper concert piece for her theme down the track.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The concert version along with Marion's Theme left me kind of cold while everyone here was practically wanking off to them.

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Everything in KOTCS leaves me cold, like the film itself.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Icy crowd.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The score superceeds the film far and beyond, while TLJ film and score complement each other in their strange aura of irrelevance.

[John 2,032]

I think we all can agree that TLJ is the best Star Wars score of 2017. That much is certain.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

 

Well, I'm not sure...

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

On 18/02/2018 at 6:10 PM, JohnSolo said:

I think we all can agree that TLJ is the best Star Wars score of 2017. That much is certain.

 

I hope Kevin Kiner doesn't read this but yes, you are correct.

[Arpy 4,145]

Kevin Kiner: "Oh, here's my chance!"

[gkgyver 1,645]

22 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

I think we all can agree that TLJ is the best Star Wars score of 2017. That much is certain.

 

Did Rogue One still run in 2017?

[John 2,032]

15 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Did Rogue One still run in 2017?

 

Rogue One and its score were released in 2016.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

2 minutes ago, JohnSolo said:

 

Rogue One and its score were released in 2016.

And it was also really really shitty so that instantly disqualifies it.  

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I think the Rogue One score score is just fine 

[John 2,032]

Eh. While Rogue One isn't nearly as bad as some here claim it to be, it's a thoroughly mediocre, uninspired score.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Imperial Suite >>> TLJ

[John 2,032]

24 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Imperial Suite >>> TLJ

 

[Arpy 4,145]

7 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

And it was also really really shitty so that instantly disqualifies it.  

 

WRONG!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Everything is either a "masterpiece" or "really shitty".

[mstrox 6,651]

I long for a simpler time, when things were allowed to just be "good as hell"

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Movies are just alright or okay.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I prefer to distinguish between good for your soul and bad for your soul.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Captain. It's not alright.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

8 hours ago, Denise Bryson said:

Everything is either a "masterpiece" or "really shitty".

 

"Bravo!" The Washington Post

"Jerry's last post is a masterpiece" The San Francisco Chronicle

"Sheer bloody poetry" The Times

"Really shitty" The Australian 

 

[filmmusic 1,829]

12 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Imperial Suite >>> TLJ

what is the Imperial Suite?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Just now, filmmusic said:

what is the Imperial Suite?

Imperial March parody

[filmmusic 1,829]

1 minute ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Imperial March parody

Oh, haven't heard it.

[Jay 37,361]

8 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

what is the Imperial Suite?

 

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

On 20/02/2018 at 10:39 AM, Not Mr. Big said:

Imperial March parody

 

Sort of. I still like it though.

[gkgyver 1,645]

At least Giacchino did a theme that's only in spirit similar to the OT, contrary to the recycling orgy that is TLJ.

[Smaug The Iron 515]

2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

At least Giacchino did a theme that's only in spirit similar to the OT, contrary to the recycling orgy that is TLJ.

 

Rose’s theme>>>>>>>> Any new theme from Rouge One. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

Rouge One: A Star Wars Lipstick Story  

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28 minutes ago, Smaug the iron said:

Rose’s theme>>>>>>>> Any new theme from Rouge One. 

 

Would love to know how Rose's, Luke's or Holdo's themes are just, "recycled from the OT," but I've long-since given up expecting any justification for the obnoxious and vapid whinging about TLJ. Just an endless series of useless, irrelevant trolling that adds nothing to the discussion except to waste everyone's time.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

At least Giacchino did a theme that's only in spirit similar to the OT, contrary to the recycling orgy that is TLJ.

 

Suing you for the pain resultant from the eyerolling I just experienced.

 

Given your distaste for the score, why do you incessantly post about it?  Do you honestly have nothing better to do with your time?  Are you THAT determined that everyone know precisely how correct you are and precisely how incorrect everyone else is on this particular subject?

 

You anti-TLJ folk are off the deep end, fella.

19 minutes ago, Smaug the iron said:

 

Rose’s theme>>>>>>>> Any new theme from Rouge One. 

 

I agree with this ... and I love Giacchino's score!

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An excellent article on Williams' complex development of the Resistance March throughout TLJ, written by a Professor of Music Theory at Tufts University:

http://musicologynow.ams-net.org/2018/02/quick-take-motives-modulations-and.html

 

It's heavy on the musical lingo (see excerpt below) so it might not be everyone's cuppa tea, but it further reiterates the stupidity of posts above that relentlessly paint TLJ as some lazy, "cut and paste" effort. That couldn't be further from the truth; Williams is writing at a level far beyond other modern film composers. The complexity of writing in even the most "mundane" cues is staggering.

 

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On a measure-to-measure level, the “March of the Resistance” (MotR) is not especially marked harmonically, remaining squarely in a minor-diatonic space during each of its sub-phrases. But across phrases, it’s tonally mobile, reliably transposing itself up a perfect fifth, sometimes through several sequential iterations. This transpositional strategy is tied with the neo-baroque idiom in which Williams stylizes the theme, particularly in its concert arrangement, whose midsection showcases a loose three-voice fugato, which I’ve transcribed and annotated below.

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its been posted here before (by the author, no less), but it still leaves me cold. So The March of the Ressistance gets development. Hurray.

 

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You anti-TLJ folk are off the deep end[...]it further reiterates the stupidity of posts above that relentlessly paint TLJ as some lazy, "cut and paste" effort. That couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Not that I consider myself an "anti-TLJ" person, but don't you two think you're taking things a little too far, calling whatever negative remarks that people make of this score as flat out "stupid", "farthest from the truth", "off the deep end", etc?

 

Can you really not see the issues that people take with this score, at all? For instance:

 

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Would love to know how Rose's, Luke's or Holdo's themes are just, "recycled from the OT," 

 

Those aren't recycled - the rest of the material often is.

 

I think part of the issue is just that: Williams wrote three new leitmotives for this, where he usually averages about twice as much for each new score. Because he had less new themes to work with (and at least one of them, the desperation motif, doesn't fully materialize until the midpoint), he had to rely on quoting existing themes far more often than he usually does, throughout. And because of how numerous those quotes are, it became impossible to escape some of the existing variations.

 

I still like it more than Giacchino's Rogue One (which I also enjoyed), although I also like this movie more.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I think part of the issue is just that: Williams wrote three new leitmotives for this, where he usually averages about twice as much for each new score.

Fuck, talk about first world problems.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its not an issue to be dwarfed, I think. Its very uncharacteristic on Williams part.

 

Makes a Horner score look dense, by comparison! 

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

don't you two think you're taking things a little too far, calling whatever negative remarks that people make of this score as flat out "stupid", "farthest from the truth", "off the deep end", etc?

 

The aforementioned comments were in direct response to this pointless comment:

5 hours ago, gkgyver said:

At least Giacchino did a theme that's only in spirit similar to the OT, contrary to the recycling orgy that is TLJ.

 

So to answer your question, no, I'm not "taking things a little too far" calling out such idiotic comments for what they are. I've repeatedly stated I have no issue with people disliking the score; what irritates me is that any meaningful discussion about the score is instantly derailed by those who take issue with it, usually with pointless comments.

 

And, like it or not, you are part of the problem. Case in point: I posted an in-depth article discussing the harmonic development of March of the Resistance in TLJ. Your immediate reply shitcans the article, points out it's already been posted AND finishes with this beauty:

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

So The March of the Ressistance gets development. Hurray.

 

Like, seriously? Do you even realise how obnoxious that comment is, in a thread dedicated to discussing the score? Would you like it if I went into every Lord of the Rings thread and made similar comments about Shore's scores?

"Oh, so he develops the Hobbiton theme in The Two Towers. Pfft, whatever! Why didn't he write seventeen new themes for Hobbiton instead? Shore's a hack!"

[Smaug The Iron 515]

Chen G. what new theme would you like to have in The Last Jedi? 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Now, that's an interesting question! I think giving another leitmotif to the Luke storyline and alternating between that and the motif that we already got, could have helped. It would give Williams something to use during the scenes on the island where Luke isn't in sight, rather than flogging Rey's theme through those sections of the film.

 

20 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Do you even realise how obnoxious that comment is, in a thread dedicated to discussing the score? Would you like it if I went into every Lord of the Rings thread and made similar comments about Shore's scores?

"Oh, so he develops the Hobbiton theme in The Two Towers. Pfft, whatever! Why didn't he write seventeen new themes for Hobbiton instead? Shore's a hack!"

 

No, I don't see it as abnoxious in the slightest. I'm not deriding the article itself. It was a very engaging read. I believe I gave Lehman's post a "like" at the time I just don't think that pointing out the development that an anchiliary theme undergoes is nearly enough to drastically change my (or indeed anyone's) opinion on the score.

 

And as you said it: this thread is dedicated to discussing the score, not dedicated to heaping praise on it. If someone has a negative opinion of this score, even a stronly negative one (which I don't have), his posts should be treated with civility.

 

And again, those Shore comparisons do you little credit. When The Two Towers came out, you didn't see Shore boasting how "95% of the music is new" or "there are only six minutes of material using themes from previous films" the way Williams so often does. That's because a) it isn't true and b) Shore doesn't work like that, but Williams does!

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15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

And this thread is dedicated to discussing the score, not dedicated to heaping praise on it.

And yet, any time someone attempts to discuss the score, someone immediately jumps down their throat to tell them they're wrong, or flagrantly disregard any point they made (case in point, your post directly above about the harmonic development of MOTR). I don't know how many times I have to make the exact same point before it finally sinks in.

 

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

And again, those Shore comparisons do you little credit. When The Two Towers came out, you didn't see Shore boasting how "95% of the music is new" the way Williams so often does. Because a) it isn't true and b) Shore doesn't work like that, but Williams does!

Oh, really? Can you please post a single quote from Williams claiming any such thing about his score for The Last Jedi? He commented that TFA had about 8 minutes of existing themes but the rest is new, and I'm yet to see any evidence that contradicts this.

 

As for your comment about 'how composers work', I must have missed the Supreme Court ruling that all composers needed to conform to your opinion of their workflow. Who are you to claim "how Williams works" or "how Shore works"? Such a naive comment to make about any artist, much less one with the breadth and diversity of work that Williams has.

[Chen G. 3,949]

27 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Oh, really? Can you please post a single quote from Williams claiming any such thing about his score for The Last Jedi? He commented that TFA had about 8 minutes of existing themes but the rest is new, and I'm yet to see any evidence that contradicts this.

 

As for your comment about 'how composers work', I must have missed the Supreme Court ruling that all composers needed to conform to your opinion of their workflow. Who are you to claim "how Williams works" or "how Shore works"? Such a naive comment to make about any artist, much less one with the breadth and diversity of work that Williams has.

 

Williams didn't say that about The Last Jedi because that's clearly not true of that score. But he did make such statements not just about The Force Awakens, but about most (if not all) of his Star Wars scores, and in fact most of his scores to serialized franchises. I think the only time where he admitted to relying more heavily than usual on existing themes is Revenge of the Sith, it being a "bridging" score, but even that score still has more themes and certainly more of its own character, compared to The Last Jedi.

 

As for how composers work, I'm not stating my opinion, I'm looking into how the composers describe their work in their own words. Williams always speaks about "writing new material that co-exists with the previous themes" whereas Shore, especially with third installments, openly speaks about taking the existing themes and "pitting" them against one another.

 

I like this score. I just don't love it nearly as much as you do; shoot me.

[Score 770]

27 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Williams didn't say that about The Last Jedi because that's clearly not true of that score.

 

... which makes your comment out of place (as well as contradictory). Also, check on the dictionary the meaning of "boasting". I cannot imagine a word which is less appropriate to describe anything JW has ever said in his life about his own work. Sometimes you have a point in what you say (sometimes you don't), but you almost always use disparaging words when you refer to JW, especially in comparison to your beloved Shore. This will not help your cause (if you have one). Also, you often make these such disparaging observations based on what you think JW meant, or what you think he said, or what you think he should have done, with absolutely no concrete basis. 

 

 

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But he did make such statements not just about The Force Awakens, but about most (if not all) of his Star Wars scores, and in fact most of his scores to serialized franchises. I think the only time where he admitted to relying more heavily than usual on existing themes is Revenge of the Sith, it being a "bridging" score, but even that score still has more themes and certainly more of its own character, compared to The Last Jedi.

 

As for how composers work, I'm not stating my opinion, I'm looking into how the composers describe their work in their own words. Williams always speaks about "writing new material

that co-exists with the previous themes"

 

If you want to make a case about precise statements, it is your duty to provide your sources, not just "I think he said". And anyway, it is a fact that JW writes new material that co-exists with the previous themes, he did it in TLJ as well (although we might be more or less pleased than with other scores of the franchise), so I don't understand what you want to imply.

 

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

8 minutes ago, Score said:

which makes your comment out of place. Also, check on the dictionary the meaning of "boasting". I cannot imagine a word which is less appropriate to describe anything JW has ever said in his life about his own work. Sometimes you have a point in what you say (sometimes you don't), but you almost always use disparaging words when you refer to JW.

 

Ah, I see.

 

Well, that's certainly not my intention. Thanks for pointing it out. I had no idea.

 

In my defense, I do believe I'm the only one in this forum writing in English, whose native language is not an Indo-European one, so occasionally words fail me. In saying "boast" I certainly didn't mean anything negative by it. I'm just saying that, until now, Williams has taken a lot of pride (as well he should) in writing scores that were each based predominantly on new themes. To see him break away from that tradition with this score is, to me, puzzling and even somewhat disheartening.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I'm not convinced the score ISN'T based predominantly on new themes.  I hear "The Rebellion Is Reborn" in new places every time I listen to the score.

[Chen G. 3,949]

We really need to wait until we have the film in Bluray. But it does seem far more based on themes from the first trilogy and from The Force than on the new themes. Which is understandable when you only have three of those.

 

There's also something to be said about how much these revisited themes are varied or not. I love Leia's concert arrangement, but it was wierd hearing it when Leia was pulling her Marry Poppins act. Same with Yoda's theme.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I kind of agree with you as it relates to the Yoda theme, but I love everything about the "Mary Poppins" scene, the music included.

[TSMefford 1,509]

I will say. I don't think Last Jedi is bad by any means, and I think most of the old material appearances are fine, but I was utterly sick of the Force Theme by the end of the OST. I didn't feel that way after watching the film though, so it might be more spread out and less significant in the grand scheme of the film. The OST on the other hand has way too much of it.

[BTR1701 59]

13 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

I will say. I don't think Last Jedi is bad by any means, and I think most of the old material appearances are fine, but I was utterly sick of the Force Theme by the end of the OST. I didn't feel that way after watching the film though, so it might be more spread out and less significant in the grand scheme of the film. The OST on the other hand has way too much of it.

 

I agree. That's my main criticism of the TLJ soundtrack, which otherwise I very much enjoy. Way too much Force Theme. And if Williams was going to use older themes from the SW series, why is Luke's Theme (or whatever the Main Title theme is called these days) completely absent except for the opening crawl? This installment, more than any of the other of the new trilogy, is all about Luke. Yet his theme is nowhere to be found.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

It seems pretty clear to me that Luke’s theme no longer really represents Luke. It’s usage in TFA was more as a feeling of nostalgia and for the occasional “fuck yeah” moment like Scherzo. I’m not sure why people keep expecting it to be associated with him because that would not be consistent with how Williams has been using it as of late.

 

That’s not to say I wouldn’t like more thematic material associated with Luke used in TLJ but that theme in particular represents him in name only at this point.