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THE LAST JEDI - OST Album MUSIC Discussion (No Movie Spoilers)

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Yeah out of that final group of tracks from A New Alliance onwards, Peace and Purpose is the only track that slightly underwhelms me.

 

And the overuse of the Force Theme throughout the score (and TFA) really lessens the impact Binary Sunset SHOULD have had at the start of Peace and Purpose. It's such a beautifully scored moment but the old adage is true: too much of a good thing is bad. It doesn't quite carry the weight it should.

 

A minor key version of Luke's Theme would almost have been more impactful for that moment, because that theme is criminally underused in this new trilogy (considering Luke has been such a focal point).

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9 hours ago, gkgyver said:

I love that someone has an opinion of the score that differs from the average JW or SW fanboy, and despite him saying he enjoys it, he gets instantly insulted.

 

It's like throwing a small stone into a chicken coop. The noise and severity of the stone is insignificant compared to the triggered panic of the chicken.

Not true! He's wrong when he eluding that there is less new material here than other Star Wars scores. episodes 2 and 3 had less new thematic material. Now as you said in the next post, Episode 1 is head over heels brimming with new material and ideas. Hell yes, to me its the best score by far, I'll give you that.

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13 minutes ago, ocelot said:

Not true! He's wrong when he eluding that there is less new material here than other Star Wars scores. episodes 2 and 3 had less new thematic material. Now as you said in the next post, Episode 1 is head over heels brimming with new material and ideas. Hell yes, to me its the best score by far, I'll give you that.

 

It's like people have forgotten the entire arena sequence in AOTC and Lucas' pathetic treatment of JW's scores.

 

Sure, Lucas understood how to run a spotting session with JW, but he manipulated and hacked those scores to pieces without a care in the world (just like the cinematic abominations they accompanied).

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23 minutes ago, ocelot said:

episodes 2 and 3 had less new thematic material. Now as you said in the next post, Episode 1 is head over heels brimming with new material and ideas. Hell yes, to me its the best score by far, I'll give you that.

 

I'm not sure. Attack of the Clones had two love themes, the mystery motif, the Kamino motif and a motif for Dooku. Revenge of the Sith has Battle of the Heroes, Grievous, Anakin's Lament, a motif for Mustafar, that piece from "another happy landing" and the first recurring statement of one of the fanfares associated with Curoscant.

 

This has Rose's theme, the Last Jedi motif and the Desperation motif - half of either of those two.

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Attack of the Clones had two love themes? That seems a miscount because there's only one I know of, and that's Across The Stars. I'm also curious as to what you mean about the recurring Coruscant fanfare... are you referring to the lift/adaptation of the end of "He Is The Chosen One" from TPM? Also, I'd hardly call the Mustafar music a 'motif' given it's restricted to one cue (Moving Things Along).

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9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I'm not sure. Attack of the Clones had two love themes, the mystery motif, the Kamino motif and a motif for Dooku. Revenge of the Sith has Battle of the Heroes, Grievous, Anakin's Lament, a motif for Mustafar, that piece from "another happy landing" and the first recurring statement of one of the fanfares associated with Curoscant.

 

This has Rose's theme, the Last Jedi motif and the Desperation motif - half of either of those two.

I'm talking themes and motifs, there are 5 I believe in TLJ. if you are counting pieces for areas and concert pieces, then you have to count canto bite, Fathiers, and other stand out moments in TLJ. I don't even recall the second love theme in Attack of the clones. Just ATS. Anakin's Lament is not a theme, it's more a concert piece. Or does that theme happen in different parts of the film? Themes and Motif's are things you can use all over the film and the next films, not great moments of music used once.

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The other love theme is what's called the "courtship motif". Y'know, when the pair have, well, pears and such nonsense.

 

Anakin's Lament also occurs in the immolation scene, and is itself derived from the B-phrase of "Across the Stars."'

 

2 minutes ago, ocelot said:

there are 5 I believe in TLJ. if you are counting pieces for areas and concert pieces, then you have to count canto bite, Fathiers, and other stand out moments in TLJ.

 

No. Set-piece-specific scoring isn't leitmotivic.

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I'm not sure. Attack of the Clones had two love themes, the mystery motif, the Kamino motif and a motif for Dooku. Revenge of the Sith has Battle of the Heroes, Grievous, Anakin's Lament, a motif for Mustafar, that piece from "another happy landing" and the first recurring statement of one of the fanfares associated with Curoscant.

 

This has Rose's theme, the Last Jedi motif and the Desperation motif - half of either of those two.

 

If you're going to start labeling such ideas as a Mustafar or Another Happy Landing motif in your list, then you might as well equally consider the Canto Bight motif, the Fathiers motif, the Escape motif, the Siege Cannon motif or the Dreadnought motif from TLJ. Oh yeah, the 'Luke's Return' ending of The Spark, the 'Young Jedi Boy' motif that starts Finale, the 'Rey's Sadness' theme in The Cave, the Finn's Sacrifice motif at the end of Battle of Crait, etc.

 

See, it's very easy to just label non-thematic ideas as a 'motif', isn't it? At least apply the same rationale to both scores.

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2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Looking back, it’s amazing that John Williams finally got to write the first love theme for Star Wars, twice, on Attack of the Clones!  

 

I hope that in the future he finally gets the chance to write a love theme for a Star Wars!

 

I'd say Empire's Han Solo and the Princess is a love theme.

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Just now, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I'd say Empire's Han Solo and the Princess is a love theme.

 

John Williams doesn't say that though, which makes me wonder if he saw it more as being just Han's theme.

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5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I'd say Empire's Han Solo and the Princess is a love theme.

 

Yeah, but not quite in the same way that "Across the Stars" is. That's what Williams and Lucas are on about when they talk about it being the first love theme in the series.

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8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Maybe Han Solo and the Princess is better called a warm emotions theme.

Not by the way those two were sparring and acting towards each other in Empire, lol "You're Worshipfulness!!!" 

25 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The other love theme is what's called the "courtship motif". Y'know, when the pair have, well, pears and such nonsense.

 

Anakin's Lament also occurs in the immolation scene, and is itself derived from the B-phrase of "Across the Stars."'

 

 

No. Set-piece-specific scoring isn't leitmotivic.

But that's what you did too...... Yours are set pieces, lol, that's my point!

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10 minutes ago, ocelot said:

Not by the way those two were sparring and acting towards each other in Empire, lol "You're Worshipfulness!!!" 

But that's what you did too...... Yours are set pieces, lol, that's my point!

 

To the best of my recollections (and another listen could be in order) they are not. Stuff like the Dooku material for instance is all over Attack of the Clones, also representing those in league with him (including Jango Fett, on occasion) and the other motifs are also recurring.

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IMO, his current output is better than what he was writing ten years ago, circa KOTCS.

 

In fact, if I'm being honest, The Last Jedi shits all over KOTCS. That score practically screamed, 'I don't give a shit,' which was a fairly accurate reflection of the movie itself and Spielberg's pedestrian direction... which was, itself, an accurate reflection of the godawful script Koepp handed him.

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I still remember all the excitement around it. Three years without a JW score, nearly two decades without a new Indy score... and we got... that.

 

Track after track of monotonous underscore. Probably one of JW's worst OST presentations. There's a solid 60-70 minutes of score in that film but barely half is on the album. Thank fuck we got the sessions!

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How? We can at least assemble a decent listening experience with more highlights (Warehouse Escape, Jungle Chase, Nuclear Cloud) and without the monotonous underscore (Oxley's Dilemma, Secret Doors and Scorpions, Grave Robbers and Orellana's Cradle).

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Of course, but at least we can substitute the boring underscore for more interesting stuff. There's a solid OST-length presentation of highlights within the sessions, just have to cherry-pick it.

 

The score would be an insufferable chore in complete form. The film itself is a slog for close to an hour after the College chase.

 

Anyway, getting OT!

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1 hour ago, DolceMecha said:

 

But more on topic: can't remember if this has been pointed out yet, but is that a little snippet of 'Luke & Leia' in between the two phrases of the Force theme in Peace and Purpose?
 

 

 

Yes!

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6 hours ago, crumbs said:

IMO, his current output is better than what he was writing ten years ago, circa KOTCS.

 

Yeah, in your opinion... ;)

 

3 hours ago, DolceMecha said:

is that a little snippet of 'Luke & Leia' in between...

 

No.

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8 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Yeah, but not quite in the same way that "Across the Stars" is. That's what Williams and Lucas are on about when they talk about it being the first love theme in the series.

 

I took that statement as pointing out that from now on, Episode II will be the second movie in the series, so it has the first love theme of the series.

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7 hours ago, DolceMecha said:

 

But more on topic: can't remember if this has been pointed out yet, but is that a little snippet of 'Luke & Leia' in between the two phrases of the Force theme in Peace and Purpose?
 

 

 

Sounds like it might be. Could just be a transition moment but I'd like to think it is Luke and Leia. Twin suns. Twin Skywalkers

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3 minutes ago, Steve H said:

I don't know how to describe it in musical terms but that rapid brass flourish at 3.44 in 'The Battle Of Crait' that leads into 'Here they Come'...... thats John Williams and thats Star Wars!

 

I believe the correct musical term is "f***ing awesome"

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15 hours ago, crumbs said:

Yeah out of that final group of tracks from A New Alliance onwards, Peace and Purpose is the only track that slightly underwhelms me.

 

And the overuse of the Force Theme throughout the score (and TFA) really lessens the impact Binary Sunset SHOULD have had at the start of Peace and Purpose. It's such a beautifully scored moment but the old adage is true: too much of a good thing is bad. It doesn't quite carry the weight it should.

 

A minor key version of Luke's Theme would almost have been more impactful for that moment, because that theme is criminally underused in this new trilogy (considering Luke has been such a focal point).

 

I agree that, from a purely musical point of view, it would have been nice to have much more of Luke's theme than we get in this score or TFA. But it seems Williams is retaining the theme's association from the prequels, where it generally accompanies a heroic (and usually aggressive) moment for the good guys (and not necessarily the Jedi) - I'm thinking of it accompanying one of BB8's heroic actions in TLJ, though there are a couple of other statements IIRC. The only time it actually accompanies Luke in the PT is of course at the end of ROTS, where we see baby Luke being given a new home. There, though, it's functioning more like a subtitle, reinforcing who the little one is.

 

If we ask why Williams may have decided to avoid using Luke's theme to accompany discussion of, or scenes with, Luke in these new films, we can only speculate, and my guess is because Luke is no longer the hero in these new films. Though he does do something heroic, he was more of a catalyst to allow Rey - the real hero - to shine. And to me, though musically it is disappointing not to have more of Luke's theme, in terms of the narrative I feel that decision is spot on. Minor-key versions of Luke's theme in the saga are pretty exclusively associated with Luke, since they generally appear only in ANH and TESB, where Luke is struggling to learn and apply the ways of the Force. Maybe the association still sticks with Williams and that's why we don't get any minor-key Luke themes.

 

Or maybe they just weren't in the temp track. ;)

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Musically that makes sense. Luke isn't the hero we remember, so using his theme might not have been appropriate. I think he could've done some really cool deconstruction of it though, but that's okay. We got a new theme instead! :)

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6 hours ago, Ludwig said:

 

I agree that, from a purely musical point of view, it would have been nice to have much more of Luke's theme than we get in this score or TFA. But it seems Williams is retaining the theme's association from the prequels, where it generally accompanies a heroic (and usually aggressive) moment for the good guys (and not necessarily the Jedi) - I'm thinking of it accompanying one of BB8's heroic actions in TLJ, though there are a couple of other statements IIRC. The only time it actually accompanies Luke in the PT is of course at the end of ROTS, where we see baby Luke being given a new home. There, though, it's functioning more like a subtitle, reinforcing who the little one is.

 

If we ask why Williams may have decided to avoid using Luke's theme to accompany discussion of, or scenes with, Luke in these new films, we can only speculate, and my guess is because Luke is no longer the hero in these new films. Though he does do something heroic, he was more of a catalyst to allow Rey - the real hero - to shine. And to me, though musically it is disappointing not to have more of Luke's theme, in terms of the narrative I feel that decision is spot on. Minor-key versions of Luke's theme in the saga are pretty exclusively associated with Luke, since they generally appear only in ANH and TESB, where Luke is struggling to learn and apply the ways of the Force. Maybe the association still sticks with Williams and that's why we don't get any minor-key Luke themes.

 

Or maybe they just weren't in the temp track. ;)

 

Speaking of minor-key versions of major-key themes, and viceversa, what do you think about the fact that Rose's theme begins exactly with the major-key version of the Force theme (6 pitches and even the rhythmic feature of the triplet)? As far as I know (without having seen the movie yet), Rose is not a Force user at all, and I was very surprised when I read that this is a "new theme".

 

 

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3 hours ago, Arpy said:

Luke's Theme statement at the end of TLJ with the child was a clear reference though, to Luke and the ideal of what he represents.

 

Very nicely put. It fits perfectly into the film on a thematic level. The idea that Luke represents something, represents hope for the Resistance, represents hope for future Force-sensitive children. It's what Rey tries to explain to him but he only understands at the end.

 

So that's some pretty brilliant scoring from Williams, right along with the rest of the score.

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15 minutes ago, Score said:

 

Speaking of minor-key versions of major-key themes, and viceversa, what do you think about the fact that Rose's theme begins exactly with the major-key version of the Force theme (6 pitches and even the rhythmic feature of the triplet)? As far as I know (without having seen the movie yet), Rose is not a Force user at all, and I was very surprised when I read that this is a "new theme".

 

 

 

Rose's theme is indeed derived from the Force theme.

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17 hours ago, DolceMecha said:

But more on topic: can't remember if this has been pointed out yet, but is that a little snippet of 'Luke & Leia' in between the two phrases of the Force theme in Peace and Purpose?
 

 

 

It always sounded like Rey's theme to me. Having seen the film again, it's what I figured - we see Rey at this exact moment.

 

7 hours ago, Ludwig said:

 

I agree that, from a purely musical point of view, it would have been nice to have much more of Luke's theme than we get in this score or TFA. But it seems Williams is retaining the theme's association from the prequels, where it generally accompanies a heroic (and usually aggressive) moment for the good guys (and not necessarily the Jedi) - I'm thinking of it accompanying one of BB8's heroic actions in TLJ, though there are a couple of other statements IIRC. The only time it actually accompanies Luke in the PT is of course at the end of ROTS, where we see baby Luke being given a new home. There, though, it's functioning more like a subtitle, reinforcing who the little one is.

 

If we ask why Williams may have decided to avoid using Luke's theme to accompany discussion of, or scenes with, Luke in these new films, we can only speculate, and my guess is because Luke is no longer the hero in these new films. Though he does do something heroic, he was more of a catalyst to allow Rey - the real hero - to shine. And to me, though musically it is disappointing not to have more of Luke's theme, in terms of the narrative I feel that decision is spot on. Minor-key versions of Luke's theme in the saga are pretty exclusively associated with Luke, since they generally appear only in ANH and TESB, where Luke is struggling to learn and apply the ways of the Force. Maybe the association still sticks with Williams and that's why we don't get any minor-key Luke themes.

 

Or maybe they just weren't in the temp track. ;)

 

We actually get Luke's theme a decent amount in this - just not so much on the OST. 

 

At least a couple of them were Leia moments, but yeah I don't think any Luke.

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1 hour ago, DominicCobb said:

It always sounded like Rey's theme to me. Having seen the film again, it's what I figured - we see Rey at this exact moment.

 

Oh, interesting! I've only seen the film once so I couldn't remember what exactly was on screen at that point. I'll have to look out for that next time!

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So, Rose's theme is both reminiscent of Anakin's theme and derived from the Force theme, the frequent Prequel references are to be considered "Easter Eggs", the reason for the mass of OT quotes is not to be discussed, and all that's left are one or two minor motifs, and fragmented John Williams action and suspense music.

 

I think with that, my interest in the score has reached a level where I'll probably let it rest. Didn't buy the physical CD, no need to. I can't see myself listening to it again anytime soon.

Never heard a more dissapointing Williams score in my life.

 

Merry Christmas

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2 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

So, Rose's theme is both reminiscent of Anakin's theme and derived from the Force theme, the frequent Prequel references are to be considered "Easter Eggs", the reason for the mass of OT quotes is not to be discussed, and all that's left are one or two minor motifs, and fragmented John Williams action and suspense music.

 

I think with that, my interest in the score has reached a level where I'll probably let it rest. Didn't buy the physical CD, no need to. I can't see myself listening to it again anytime soon.

Never heard a more dissapointing Williams score in my life.

 

Merry Christmas

 

It's still better than Stepmom :)

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15 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

So, Rose's theme is both reminiscent of Anakin's theme and derived from the Force theme

 

Its absolutely derived from The Force theme, although narrative-wise it doesn't need to be, and we already have way too much of The Force theme here as it is.

 

Its reminiscent of Anakin's theme simply in that they're both "youthful". It doesn't really go much deeper than that, in this case.

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its absolutely derived from The Force theme, although narrative-wise it doesn't need to be, and we already have way too much of The Force theme here as it is.

 

Its reminiscent of Anakin's theme simply in that they're both "youthful". It doesn't really go much deeper than that, in this case.

 

"The Rebellion is Reborn" displays several times, including in the introduction, a sequence like Db (tonic) - Eb, where the Eb major chord has that characteristic augmented fourth (G with respect to the tonic Db) that appears at the beginning of Anakin's theme, and in Yoda's theme as well. This also happens in the transposition of the theme to F major. This is why it reminds of Anakin's theme (in addition to the Force theme and Yoda).

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