The Last Jedi Where do you rank the score for "The Last Jedi"?

[Marcus 390]

I see your point, especially in terms of texture: There's a lushness to TLJ that contrasts the sobering leanness of TFA's aesthetics. 

 

Still, a great deal of TFA's score is given a kind of '2.0' update throughout TLJ.

 

Parts of the new material are also very much contingent on the established new (TFA) themes, to a degree I find really impressive, compositionally. 

 

The theme that is varyingly attributed to Luke, Holdo or the Island, is actually a development of Rey's fanfare (the one often played by celeste, harp and vibes), and "The Rebellion is Reborn", save for Rose's theme, is essentially a deconstruction/reconstruction of the other themes and motifs pertaining to the Resistance. 

 

I'm sure there's lots more to discover!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Truth be told, listened to the album about 3 times in its entirety, and struggle to find reasons and values to listen to it again. It did, however, make me want to listen to Episode III again.

 

The highlights of this score are largely put in the End Credits. 

I also struggle to rank it above Episode II. In fact, I can't. 

21 hours ago, Tom said:

I don't understand this.  The score fits the movie very well, so it does the primary job it is supposed to do.  Perhaps your complaint is more directed to the movie?

 

No, his complaint is directed towards the man who has the reputation of creating classic film music in each of the Star Wars Films, and failed to deliver.

JW is not a film wallpaper artist, nor is he a fill-in who is hired to maintain the Star Wars sound by quoting old movies; the standard for JW film music isn't "it fits the movie well". Standards are higher, and have been the highest for nearly 40 years, and Star Wars is even higher.

Age can't be the reason because BFG is as lovely as Williams ever was.

Whether it's the director or Williams, but TLJ in not few parts sounds lazy. That's right, lazy.

 

You know, it's okay to criticize John Willams, you will neither turn into dust if you do, nor are you a "hater". 

"Just be grateful that a 85 year old man gives us his music". Well, I am grateful, but it doesn't make it great. If he can't step up to the plate anymore, Williams should just walk away with grace.

The only reason people might look back in 20 years and say it was a brilliant score by his standards, would be because Williams will long have been dead then, and people will miss his music.

 

If someone wants to claim now that the music for Star Wars just needed to fit the movie well, and nothing much more should be expected, well, you're lying.

[Marcus 390]

To claim that Williams' score to TLJ is "lazy" is just absurd.

 

I'm only beginning to discover all its layers, but you can pretty much take any track you like off the OST, and what you'll hear, is a level of nuance and artfulness simply not found in traditional orchestral film scoring anymore. 

 

There's so much beauty and detail and craft in every bar of this music. I'm stunned to see people actually feeling let down by it...  

 

It may be just another film score. But it happens to be a phenomenally well-written one. 

 

 

 

 

[Tom 4,632]

You and Bespin are both claiming, then, that another composer would have composed a better score (or at lease a score of equal quality) for this movie. I do not think this is case.  There are so many genuine Williamisms throughout, 3 very good new themes, and even when old themes appear, the majority of the time they are reworked.  Very few are claiming it is a masterpiece, just that it is a solid Williams SW score that no other composer working today could have pulled off.  If you disagree with the latter part, tell me what composer could have pulled it off.  

[Balahkay 627]

The overall reaction to TLJ seems to be more positive than TFA.  As with TFA, this score may be a grower for some reason.  And there's so much music missing from the OST yet to be discovered outside the film.

[artguy360 1,842]

1 minute ago, Tom said:

You and Bespin are both claiming, then, that another composer would have composed a better score (or at lease a score of equal quality) for this movie. I do not think this is case.  There are so many genuine Williamisms throughout, 3 very good new themes, and even when old themes appear, the majority of the time they are reworked.  Very few are claiming it is a masterpiece, just that it is a solid Williams SW score that no other composer working today could have pulled off.  If you disagree with the latter part, tell me what composer could have pulled it off.  

Even John Williams at his worst is still distinctly John Williams and better than 99% of all film composers out there. TLJ is far from JW at his worst. I think people having hugely negative reactions need some time to listen and sit with this music and discover that, at minimum, it has JW's standard level of orchestral mastery and musical depth.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

10 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

As with TFA, this score may be a grower for some reason. 

I agree.  It is growing on me... for some reason. 

[Romão 2,274]

Too soon to rank this score. It will take months before I'll have a definitive opinion. I'm enjoying the hell out of it, and that's really what matters the most

[Balahkay 627]

1 minute ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I agree.  It is growing on me... for some reason. 

 

Lol, I meant to say some people.  Oh well.

[filmmusic 1,822]

By the way, I think some people misunderstand something:

 

To say TLJ is the worst SW score  and to say it's a bad film score generally, is not the same.

There is actually a huge distance between them.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Nobody said it's a bad score.

[artguy360 1,842]

Yeah I don't think many are arguing that TLJ is a bad score.

[filmmusic 1,822]

3 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Nobody said it's a bad score.

I was talking about those who love the score and think that we (that rank it low in the Star Wars saga) say it's a bad score.

[Tom 4,632]

34 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Nobody said it's a bad score.

Nobody has said that and thus no one is responding to such a claim.  What I am responding to are the claims by you and Bespin.  Bespin claims William Ross could have composed a score of equal quality, and your comments above seem to strongly suggest you think other composers could have done the same, especially when you say "Williams failed to deliver." I think Bespin's claim is absurd, and I am still waiting for you to say who could have produced a score as good as TLJ other than Williams.   

[crumbs 14,287]

I love the score, my impression keeps growing with every listen.

 

That said, surely most posters who consider this a mediocre entry would agree it's still light-years better than the output of his contempories. No other composer comes close to his understanding of orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, thematic structure or orchestral balance. 

 

The fact that he's balancing over a dozen themes in the one score like a total cakewalk, and doing so using new and inventive colours, is testament to his genius.

 

We're just totally spoiled expecting this level of expertise time and time again, because he makes it look so effortless.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Ah so I see we have the usual discussion happening.

 

"The score is a letdown."

 

"No, the score is great."

 

"No, it sucks."

 

"Ok, but it's still better than everything else becuz John Williamzzzz!!!!1111!!"

 

I enjoyed the score.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

I love the score, my impression keeps growing with every listen.

 

That said, surely most posters who consider this a mediocre entry would agree it's still light-years better than the output of his contempories. No other composer comes close to his understanding of orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, thematic structure or orchestral balance. 

 

The fact that he's balancing over a dozen themes in the one score like a total cakewalk, and doing so using new and inventive colours, is testament to his genius.

 

We're just totally spoiled expecting this level of expertise time and time again, because he makes it look so effortless.

It's like Goldsmith in the 90s. Fans were disappointed, since his output was not as good as before, but he was still better than everyone else in the 90s (except John Williams).

 

Who the hell voted TLJ as best SW soundtrack?!

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Me hell

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I like the Finale track at least. Wouldn't have minded more Leia's Theme on piano. Maybe I'll learn to play it myself and I can have as much fun of it as I like.

[Sandor 796]

I read somewhere that perhaps Williams was asked to rely a lot on previous themes to keep the film -which is quite different from other SW films- rooted in the franchise. Makes sense.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That wouldn't surprise me it all.

 

It's not THAT different though.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

5 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

Ah so I see we have the usual discussion happening.

 

"The score is a letdown."

 

"No, the score is great."

 

"No, it sucks."

 

"Ok, but it's still better than everything else becuz John Williamzzzz!!!!1111!!"

 

That kind of conversation is great, isn't it?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I haven't read @El Jefe's post yet where he claims Rogue One is a better score than TLJ.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

28 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I haven't read @El Jefe's post yet where he claims Rogue One is a better score than TLJ.

 

Only a matter of time...

[King Mark 3,624]

3 hours ago, Denise Bryson said:

I like the Finale track at least.

 God your like a broken record.You also keep saying your not really a John Williams fan and only like a few select score from 30 years ago

[filmmusic 1,822]

7 hours ago, Tom said:

  Bespin claims William Ross could have composed a score of equal quality,

 

Why does this sound so unbelievable?

William Ross composed most of the score to harry Potter 2 from what I know (based on WIlliams material of course), and it still sounds like a John Williams score.

I didn't see anyone saying that it was a bad score.

[King Mark 3,624]

For fuck's sake Ross didn't compose most of the score to Harry Pottter 2

 

Why are you guys propagating lies like that as though they are fact and keep re-enforcing them

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Williams only composed 40 minutes of COS.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, king mark said:

 God your like a broken record.You also keep saying your not really a John Williams fan and only like a few select score from 30 years ago

 

Well he only did a couple in 1987, and I don't listen to those two much.

[King Mark 3,624]

why do you still even bother to listen then

[artguy360 1,842]

2 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

 

Why does this sound so unbelievable?

William Ross composed most of the score to harry Potter 2 from what I know (based on WIlliams material of course), and it still sounds like a John Williams score.

I didn't see anyone saying that it was a bad score.

That's not correct. William Ross composed very little music for HP2 and the adaptation credit he got is appropriate for the work he did on that score, along with conducting.

[King Mark 3,624]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Williams only composed 40 minutes of COS.

 

NO.We all know from years of analysis that's not true

 

You haven't budged from that position since 2002 and systematically have refused to look at any evidence proving otherwise  because you don't like the score

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, king mark said:

Why do you still even bother to listen then?

 

Fixed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

 

1 minute ago, king mark said:

 

NO.We all know from years of analysis that's not true

 

Allegedly

[King Mark 3,624]

There's no fucking credit for Ross  for any cues in the Live Concert program

 

all the descriptions are attributed to Williams

[filmmusic 1,822]

5 minutes ago, king mark said:

For fuck's sake Ross didn't compose most of the score to Harry Pottter 2

 

Why are you guys propagating lies like that as though they are fact and keep re-enforcing them

 

 

I don't know. I was confused too about this but I thought we had established here that William Ross composed most of the score.

based on various quotes I think here and there.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

1 minute ago, king mark said:

There's no fucking credit for Ross  for any cues in the Live Concert Program

 

all the descriptions are attributed to Williams

 

Contractual obligations.

 

It is quite clear Ross did most of COS.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[filmmusic 1,822]

4 minutes ago, king mark said:

There's no fucking credit for Ross  for any cues in the Live Concert program

 

all the descriptions are attributed to Williams

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27619-finished-chamber-of-secrets-thematic-and-originality-analysis/&do=findComment&comment=1378138

 

[Score 770]

Again some nice CoS debate!

 

There is no way to know for sure what Ross did on CoS without seeing the sketches. Most of the material on CoS is either known to have been written specifically by JW, or to be in that grey area consisting in material written note-by-note (or almost such) by JW for SS and then cut-and-pasted for different use in CoS, aka "adapted". Whether Ross did the latter or not (it seems he did), in my opinion is rather irrelevant, as the music itself was written by JW. As far as I know, no original material by Ross has ever been determined to be such.

 

If Ross has indeed done that adaptation work as I imagine it for CoS, AND if a similar involvement had applied for TLJ (which is not the case), I expect the result would have been quite similar to the actual TLJ score. I think this is what some people meant in the posts above. 

[Ollie 1,059]

6 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I haven't read @El Jefe's post yet where he claims Rogue One is a better score than TLJ.

 

 

You obviously haven’t read the entire thread have you?

[Jay 37,267]

1 The Empire Strikes Back

2 The Return of the Jedi

3 Star Wars

4 The Phantom Menace

5 Attack of the Clones

6 The Last Jedi

7 The Force Awakens

8 Revenge of the Sith

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You're already putting TLJ before TFA? I haven't decided yet. The Last Jedi's action music is amazing, with some of the best actioN writing since TPM. 

 

But thematically its not as strong as TFA, the new themes I mean. It relies heavily on the old Star Wars themes. 

[Jay 37,267]

I actually completely agree with Ricard that its too early to rate and compare a brand new, big score like this.  But I did it anyone, just based on my gut.

 

I liked TLJ right away.  It took me a while to warm up to TFA.

 

And I think TLJ largely handles the original bed of TFA themes better than TFA actually did.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But it doesn't do that much new with either Rey's theme or the 2 Ren themes. 

 

TFA had some of the best renditions of the Force Theme of all the films. Here they are a bit plainer.

 

The final act of TFA is fantastic, remember!

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's funny that people deny to their death that any of TLJ's shortcomings could have something to do with the guy who is actually writing the music. 

 

Having heard the music, a CoS type situation would have benefitted the music probably. Then Williams could have concentrated on creating a core suite of actually new music, like 30 minutes or something, instead of spreading himself thin over 2,5 hours.

[Jay 37,267]

7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

But it doesn't do that much new with either Rey's theme or the 2 Ren themes. 

 

That's simply not an accurate statement.  Of course you're right about Ren's themes, they are not much different than TFA's.

 

But Rey's ABSOLUTELY is!  You are just not remembering everything you heard in the theater.  The complete score offers a lot of great variations of Rey's Theme.  Williams just didn't put most of them on the OST.

 

And what he does with the Resistance March in this score is fantastic!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

14 hours ago, hornist said:

Me hell

Why?

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

5 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Why?

Because it just is incredible. With the film that is. The performance of the orchestra is amazing especially the brass section. Most of the bold brass fanfares didn't make to the os. 

 

People here seem dislike the brass playing, he hee, star wars🙄

 

There is also heart and soul which I missed in the prequel scores. 

 

In OT there are many great show pieces bit not nessesarily same level with the film than in TLJ.

 

I don't mind the recycling the themes, they still his babies.

 

I saw it 2nd time today and am more convinced of my vote.

[Jay 37,267]

Just now, hornist said:

I don't mind the recycling the themes, they still his babies.

 

Seriously!

On my very first listen of the OST album, I was dissappointed there wasn't more new themes, and that it had so much of the old themes.  But then I saw the film and realized the film itself doesn't really call for any big bold new themes, AND repeated listens to the OST made me appreciate what IS on it so much, since he took old themes in so many wonderful new directions in places (obviously things like verbatim Yoda's Theme concert arrangement use is a pity).

 

He clearly had fun with this score.