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THE ADVENTURES OF HAN - 2018 John Williams theme for Solo: A Star Wars Story

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41 minutes ago, Tom said:

I like Han's theme a lot, but those who have a problem with the "power anthem" approach likely think it is beneath Williams.  A power anthem is like a rock ballad--it does not take an incredible amount of talent to accomplish (hence the ballad's of the 80s).  That is not to say they lack enjoyability, but they are not necessarily a sign of singular talent.  Williams has proved he does possess singular talent, so some may not want him to do what many, many other can do, but rather focus on what makes him unique (or at least in the upper-echelon of composers).

 

I do think it is beneath Williams whose reputation is staked on writing complex music with sophisticated and artful construction.

 

The thing is it very easy to come up with something like that just by doodling on the piano for sometime. Trust me you and I could too. It feels ordinary.

 

When you hear a classic Williams melody you are surprised and struck by its freshness by its contours.

 

Credit to JW it is still well orchestrated. But Williams is definitely above such themes.

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44 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

The thing is it very easy to come up with something like that just by doodling on the piano for sometime. Trust me you and I could too. It feels ordinary.

 

Uh oh, you ain't gonna flex that rhetoric muscle, are you? There's a composer thread in General Discussion where your piano doodling would be most eagerly awaited by me.

 

44 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

But Williams is definitely above such themes.

 

This line of reasoning reminds me of this (the first minute or so):

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

In this thread: musical philosophasters who don’t write music professionally explaining how difficult it is to write a particular kind of melody. 

 

This is disingenuous.

 

Only film-makers should write discuss movies. Only writers should discuss books. Only pop artists should critique albums. Only composers should have an opinion on music. Only athletes should analyze sports performance. Only architects should write about buildings.

 

I guess most people shouldn't have an opinion at all. For say a humble farmer, he better stick to talk about crops or else he can shut up and fuck off.

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14 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Uh oh, you ain't gonna flex that rhetoric muscle, are you? There's a composer thread in General Discussion where your piano doodling would be most eagerly awaited by me.

 

 

This line of reasoning reminds me of this (the first minute or so):

 

 

 

There is no objective measure there. I could write ode to Joy and you would say it is worthless. 

 

Why would I offer up my work for you to judge of all people when you are predisposed to be prejudiced.

 

I presume you are one of those people who leave a comment bebeath film reviews saying, "yeah punk I am waiting to see what kind of movie you can make. YouTube is free. I will be waiting for you to shoot your million dollar motion picture and upload it to YouTube for me to judge and tear apart."

 

I can't imagine a lot of people would comply with your demands.

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3 hours ago, Tom said:

I like Han's theme a lot, but those who have a problem with the "power anthem" approach likely think it is beneath Williams.  A power anthem is like a rock ballad--it does not take an incredible amount of talent to accomplish (hence the ballad's of the 80s).  That is not to say they lack enjoyability, but they are not necessarily a sign of singular talent.  Williams has proved he does possess singular talent, so some may not want him to do what many, many other can do, but rather focus on what makes him unique (or at least in the upper-echelon of composers).

 

Can an admin please add an "eye roll" reaction icon beneath our posts?

 

- On that note an "aroused" reaction might be useful, too, on occasion. To keep it tasteful, I suggest a tree or a slice of heartwood.

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You can have any opinion you like about any end result of a craft. But if you are going to comment on the difficulty of a craft, you better have experience.

 

Are you gonna comment on how difficult it is to pilot an F22 fighter plane vs. an F16 if you haven’t flown either? Then why do you think you can do so with the creation of music if you haven’t created music?

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11 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

There is no objective measure there. I could write ode to Joy and you would say it is worthless. 

 

Why would I offer up my work for you to judge of all people when you are predisposed to be prejudiced.

 

I presume you are one of those people who leave a comment bebeath film reviews saying, "yeah punk I am waiting to see what kind of movie you can make. YouTube is free. I will be waiting for you to shoot your million dollar motion picture and upload it to YouTube for me to judge and tear apart."

 

I can't imagine a lot of people would comply with your demands.

 

Your rebuttal misses and shies away from the mark, which I was hoping you wouldn't do: for someone to say they don't like something takes no professional expertise or experience. As you note above, discourse on most things would be profoundly limited if one had to be experienced with the given subject. However, when you diss a piece of music and say that you can come up with similar quality music by doodling on a piano in a few hours, that's when you open yourself up to the kind of response I had.

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5 minutes ago, TGP said:

Gotta love Hornist popping in with all these :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink: things on posts that don't mesh with his twisted, drunken worldview!

 

He blew horns for a living, he needs something to feel snobby and superior about. 

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38 minutes ago, TGP said:

Gotta love Hornist popping in with all these :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink: things on posts that don't mesh with his twisted, drunken worldview!

Hornist greatly admires The Book Thief, something that makes me overlook a great deal of his eccentricities. 

 

 

As for the current argument, an reasonably educated lay person is entitled to have an opinion and to analyze a work of art, to the best of his or her ability.

But, this should be done with respect and humility.

Nobody has all the answers or the final word on everything.  

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That’s not what we are arguing with.

 

If you don’t write melodies for movie scores you are not entitled to make personal statements about the difficulties of composing melodies for movie scores. Savvy?

 

Opine about the results all you want, but you have no insight into the process, let alone insight into another composer’s process.

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11 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Hornist greatly admires The Book Thief, something that makes me overlook a great deal of his eccentricities. 

 

 

 

If you dont get TBT I feel sad for you. Sorry no generic taiko drums!!!

45 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

He blew horns for a living, he needs something to feel snobby and superior about. 

Hah!! Coming from a snobby besserwisser!! 

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7 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

That’s not what we are arguing with.

 

If you don’t write melodies for movie scores you are not entitled to make personal statements about the difficulties of composing melodies for movie scores. Savvy?

 

Opine about the results all you want, but you have no insight into the process, let alone insight into another composer’s process.

 

Quite true.  I do write melodies, both "classical" and more "pop."  Both do not come easily to me.

 

1 minute ago, hornist said:

 

If you dont get TBT I feel sad for you. Sorry no generic taiko drums!!!

I love The Book Thief and find it to be one of Williams' most interesting and enjoyable works. 

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4 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

 

 

Quite true.  I do write melodies, both "classical" and more "pop."  Both do not come easily to me.

 

I love The Book Thief and find it to be one of Williams' most interesting and enjoyable works. 

oh sorry, read it wrong. I love you😍😍😍

1 hour ago, TGP said:

Gotta love Hornist popping in with all these :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink: things on posts that don't mesh with his twisted, drunken worldview!

 

twisted drunken worldview?? Or different than (besserwisser) yours??

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5 minutes ago, hornist said:

Haven't written anything(yet) why?

 

Just curious. You seem opposed to TGP and I's argument that those of us who don't write music should shut up about what we think is hard or easy about the writing process. 

 

At least, based on your :eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh:

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24 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

Just curious. You seem opposed to TGP and I's argument that those of us who don't write music should shut up about what we think is hard or easy about the writing process. 

 

At least, based on your :eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh::eh:

 

well those emojis just because I cannot argue in english, just disagree most of your/ his stuff. And I do not understand if I write music or dont write makes any difference there😳

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42 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Anyone who thinks it's easy to write a truly great cheesy power ballad, let me know when you've written a song as widely beloved and immortal as "Don't Stop Believin'"

Look let's use some subtlety here.  No one is saying any person (at least in this discussion thread) can do this stuff, so let's avoid the strawman.  the point is that from the pool of people with musical talent, there is going to be a much greater percentage of those who write a pop music piece like an 80s rock ballad that becomes popular than those who, as in the considered context, who can write a truly great genre-transcending melody.  Again, that doesn't make the ballad bad or even less enjoyable, but it simply is, all else being equal, an easier musical feat than other musical challenges. 

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44 minutes ago, Tom said:

Look let's use some subtlety here.  No one is saying any person (at least in this discussion thread) can do this stuff, so let's avoid the strawman.  the point is that from the pool of people with musical talent, there is going to be a much greater percentage of those who write a pop music piece like an 80s rock ballad that becomes popular than those who, as in the considered context, who can write a truly great genre-transcending melody.  Again, that doesn't make the ballad bad or even less enjoyable, but it simply is, all else being equal, an easier musical feat than other musical challenges. 

 

What a load of shhhhh...

 

The logical leaps and fallacies to make that argument are phenomenal. 

 

Most ridiculous post of 2018 award!

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Oh God, it's another one of those threads...

 

Can't we have a thread for this discussion, it always pops up when someone thinks writing music is easy or that they could've done better, because 'it's a simple theme that anyone could write'. When you use that line of reasoning, the ground beneath your feet will crumble immediately. 

 

I get people are disappointed that the theme wasn't their cup of tea, believe me I've been there and shared that feeling multiple times, but the answer is not to spout nonsense about the compositional prowess of the composer and confuse your ideas of what makes a good theme with that of what the composer produced.

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I wonder if what I perceive to be a thinner sound of Adventures of Han is intentional and meant to reflect some of the sound of ANH. The music itself is pretty standard modern JW both in terms of the theme and the rhythmic action stuff. The hero's theme has strong shades of Poe's Theme and the searching theme has the kind of constant forward progression of parts of Rey's theme. But the mix itself, or the orchestration, or both give me a hint of ANH. 

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Here I was, listening to Williams' contribution to the album, thinking it's the exact same Williams post-Munich, autopiloted overcomplication of what could be a very enjoyable theme suite, and come to JWfan to read that people perceive this disjointed collection of motifs, ridden with pretentious and aimless trumpet riffs that already ruined much of The Last Jedi, as Williams succumbing to RCP music.

And not tongue in cheek, either, but seriously.

 

At this point, this place is a parody of itself.

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12 hours ago, Steve McQueen said:

 

@hornist, do give Mine Mission and Lando's Closet a listen.  Some fine writing there. 

I don’t believe he is questioning the writing, it’s the layering of those “synth” drums. There’s some lovely writing for sure in there and throughout the album. 

 

As to the above mentioned post and replies about the theme, sometimes the most difficult things to write WELL in music or art of any kind are the simple things. And you are left wondering, why didn’t I think of that?.... just saying :)

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7 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

 

 

Your rebuttal misses and shies away from the mark, which I was hoping you wouldn't do: for someone to say they don't like something takes no professional expertise or experience. As you note above, discourse on most things would be profoundly limited if one had to be experienced with the given subject. However, when you diss a piece of music and say that you can come up with similar quality music by doodling on a piano in a few hours, that's when you open yourself up to the kind of response I had.

 

It wasn't meant to be a rebuttal but a characterization of what you said.

 

You essentially did not comment on the substance of what I said but ON me. I find that beyond petty. I would never personally do that because you make enormous assumptions about anybody when you comment ON them.

 

You know nothing about me or any of my abilities. Why have a devastating nervous breakdown over someone's critique. Or worse, over how someone worded their critique.

 

Do you go around being an abilities-Nazi on forums boards attacking anyone critiquing anything and saying they are not up to it and shouldn't dare.

 

Do you go plague a gia thread by responding to every single post saying how dare they criticize him when they haven't offered up a score for your express judgement.

 

Do you know about how people consume art? Normal everyday people with lives and beliefs and interests? The humble farmer who isn't published but enjoys reading and shyly writes some poetry that he shares with friends. Or a pizza truck driver who at night likes to play his guitar and sing a little. Or a young developer who takes pleasure in painting for recreation.

 

You would stare down all these people with contempt right? Look down on them. If the developer dare say he doesn't like a modern art painting and says he would perhaps do some things differently, you would rush to shame him and spit on his paintings right?

 

The notion that you know people on the internet or their approach to art is as bone-headed as Williams's Hero theme for Han.

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38 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I would never personally do that because you make enormous assumptions about anybody when you comment ON them.

8 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I presume you are one of those people who leave a comment bebeath film reviews saying, "yeah punk I am waiting to see what kind of movie you can make. YouTube is free. I will be waiting for you to shoot your million dollar motion picture and upload it to YouTube for me to judge and tear apart."

 

Whoops!

 

I politely urge you to recall the facts before there are any further personal misunderstandings: you claimed Adventures of Han is a simple "bone-headed" theme, one that anyone can come up with in a couple of hours. I critcized this line of thinking, which you misinterpreted as "don't give your opinion on what you're not experienced in ", which has been shot down as a non-issue in this thread 35 times on this page alone. I reiterated, very explicitly, and echoing similar comments by Blume and TGP, that I took issue specifically with you claiming that you or anyone could easily create this supposedly simple-minded music. I will quote Arpy's post from above, as a final summation of my point:

3 hours ago, Arpy said:

Can't we have a thread for this discussion, it always pops up when someone thinks writing music is easy or that they could've done better, because 'it's a simple theme that anyone could write'. When you use that line of reasoning, the ground beneath your feet will crumble immediately. 

 

With this, I hope you may finally understand the thrust of my argument, as well as the similar overarching argument made by several others on this thread. Please do not spin this into further personal tangents.

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On 25/5/2018 at 6:59 PM, filmmusic said:

I wouldn't say it's rhapsodic at all (which suggests an improvisation in form).

It follows more or less the form of a classical rondo:

A B C A B A coda

 

I stand corrected, filmmusic. More than rhapsodic in the strict sense, I was referring to free-form type of structures usually employed by JW when writing concert suites from film material, but you're definitely correct pointing out the rondo-like structure of the piece.

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9 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

It wasn't meant to be a rebuttal but a characterization of what you said.

 

You essentially did not comment on the substance of what I said but ON me. I find that beyond petty. I would never personally do that because you make enormous assumptions about anybody when you comment ON them.

 

You know nothing about me or any of my abilities. Why have a devastating nervous breakdown over someone's critique. Or worse, over how someone worded their critique.

 

Do you go around being an abilities-Nazi on forums boards attacking anyone critiquing anything and saying they are not up to it and shouldn't dare.

 

Do you go plague a gia thread by responding to every single post saying how dare they criticize him when they haven't offered up a score for your express judgement.

 

Do you know about how people consume art? Normal everyday people with lives and beliefs and interests? The humble farmer who isn't published but enjoys reading and shyly writes some poetry that he shares with friends. Or a pizza truck driver who at night likes to play his guitar and sing a little. Or a young developer who takes pleasure in painting for recreation.

 

You would stare down all these people with contempt right? Look down on them. If the developer dare say he doesn't like a modern art painting and says he would perhaps do some things differently, you would rush to shame him and spit on his paintings right?

 

The notion that you know people on the internet or their approach to art is as bone-headed as Williams's Hero theme for Han.

 

How do you know how easy it is to write a pop melody, Mr. @TheUlyssesian?

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The score is growing on me although I reckon the movie will most likely be shit. Must admit I think the material in The Adventures of Han is sup par for Williams. Can I just ask if any of you know if these two ideas (A & B themes) were Williams sum total contribution to this film score. Or are there other themes/motifs that he contributed? 

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53 minutes ago, stravinsky said:

The score is growing on me although I reckon the movie will most likely be shit. Must admit I think the material in The Adventures of Han is sup par for Williams. Can I just ask if any of you know if these two ideas (A & B themes) were Williams sum total contribution to this film score. Or are there other themes/motifs that he contributed? 

I believe they are the only two he contributed, though his influence is definitely felt in some other parts.  Powell is to be commended for his singular incorporation of some of Williams' essence in this score, to enhance his own already distinct style and technique.

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8 minutes ago, rough cut said:

This isn't really related to the new theme, but rather how the old themes are incorporated in the movie.

I don't really consider this spoiler territory, but just in case... 

 

  Hide contents

I guess I'm not the only one who noticed that the The Imperial March being played during a scene - in the freakin' movie -  for a "Join the Empire"-commercial, being completely diegetic.

 

That means that The Imperial March is a thing in the SW universe... People know it. People hum it. People are annoyed by it. The Emperor maybe hummed it in his head while Darth Vader was frying Luke on the Death Star.

 

And also...

 

That means John Williams exists in the Star Wars universe! And has an imperial contract to write music! And is being paid in imperial credits! What other themes are diegetic? Does JW sell records in the stores? Is he famous on Tatooine? Does Luke know who he is? Does Luke prefer the original JP score or The Lost World?

 

Ya'll see the implications, right?

 

Jeez, who'd have thought that about ol' JW... ?

 

Darth Williams.

 

This took an unexpected turn...

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Just listened to it. It's like modern Williams crossed with 90s swashbuckling Horner. A bit bland and meandering to be honest, but a nice enough little piece. It doesn't suit the character of Han that I know from the old movies at all, but I haven't seen the Solo movie.

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10 hours ago, publicist said:

90's swashbuckling Horner doesn't sound anything like this. More like Silvestri.

 

You may be right. What am I thinking of aside from modern meandering autopilot JW action music? I got a slight Horner vibe. Like the silly Casper swashbuckling type of music or something.

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