Do you think no one asks for Williams anymore?

[filmmusic 1,823]

I was just wondering..

Williams' latest (and future) film projects are only Star Warses and Spielberg films.

 

Do you think noone asks for Williams anymore to score their movie, because this type of music he writes is "old fashioned"?

or maybe they have, but he declined?

Are there any reports in interviews etc. of a director that wanted Williams for his/her film but couldn't get him?

[Bespin 8,480]

John Williams is not old fashioned, he's just too costly.

[filmmusic 1,823]

7 minutes ago, Bespin said:

John Williams is not old fashioned, he's just too costly.

I meant comparing to the prevailing style of music in movies now.

 

And he wasn't costly back then in the 80s, 90s?

[Will 2,215]

James Horner once said this:

 

http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/conversation-james-horner/

 

Quote

JAMES HORNER: Well John is such an icon, he comes from the golden age of film scoring but nobody is asking for John's style of writing. I meanGeorge Lucas does and Steven Spielberg does. That's a very unique world and most filmmakers find that to be something that works against the film, yet it's such beautiful writing. At its heart, one has to be able to write like that, and also still somehow translate to the tastes of what filmmakers now are asking for. John really just works for Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, and he does concert music, but he's really such a brilliant composer.

 

Kinda sad but probably true. Although I'd imagine there are at least a few directors who would love to get Williams, but just assume he's not available. 

[James 119]

Well, it's a matter of respect to begin with. I think one or the other director has an interest in working with him, but with the spaces he takes from one project to another and the fact that he has worked primarily in Spielberg and SW films, it makes these people a bit intimidated to make him an invitation.

 

Age is the main factor. A man in his 80s can not get involved in stressful projects like the ones we see in recent years (with so many editions and changes of directors, composers and producers). After all, we all know that this is the cause of the decline in the quality of film music, put the quantity, speed of delivery, homogenization of sound, before the quality.

 

"Oh, but Ennio composes music as a talented boy who scribbles drawings on his notebooks in Europe!"

 

You're right.

IN EUROPE.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

32 minutes ago, James said:

Age is the main factor. A man in his 80s can not get involved in stressful projects like the ones we see in recent years (with so many editions and changes of directors, composers and producers). After all, we all know that this is the cause of the decline in the quality of film music, put the quantity, speed of delivery, homogenization of sound, before the quality.

3

 

I think that's definitely it. For Williams to score a film now, he'd have to be approached such that he would have months to plan and write the music out. In a climate where the music to a film is largely becoming an afterthought, this doesn't seem to oftentimes be possible to pull off. 

[pete 906]

He's also quite busy with concert works and concerts. It will be interesting to see if another film project pops up later this year since Star Wars 9 and Indy 5 are still a while away.

[p0llux 392]

I asked for him, but I've received no response. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

There's a new guy in town. His name is Robomaestro.

[artguy360 1,843]

It's surprising how long ago Book Thief and Memoirs were. I imagine if JW wanted film projects outside of Spielberg and Star Wars there would be work for him. At the same time, he's not young anymore and is doing more and more concert work in recent years. 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

I wonder if he's even really taking offers anymore through his agency, but I bet either way they're fielding stuff through the year. We know he still takes commissions for concert works plus "Dear Basketball," and of course The Book Thief he went after himself. It doesn't make sense that there haven't been plenty of other things floating around him in the meantime that we just never hear about, even if they were never considered.

 

It does seem like he's lately more receptive to people he already knows, though, like people who are able to just contact him directly. If Kobe Bryant hadn't befriended Williams beforehand and instead just offered him the project out of the blue, he might not have considered doing it. I wouldn't be too surprised if Chris Columbus asked him to do something out of his recent directing/producing stuff like Night at the Museum, The Help, Percy Jackson, or even Pixels...

 

But I'm also sure the industry knows what it takes to get John Williams at this point. Whether it's budget or schedule or whatever else, I think it is probably true that a lot of people don't even consider him. But the whole "nobody wants his style" thing...I think if you were to go up to any filmmaker currently working on a movie -- assuming they have no particular attachments to another composer and aren't specifically looking for something non-orchestral -- gave them a blank check and no deadline and said "Surprise, John Williams would love to score your movie!" most of them would probably pass out before they could finish saying yes.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Williams picks and chooses what he wants to do. Horner talked about reaching that point in his career in the mid-90s. Only Goldsmith seemed to slum it to the very end, bless his soul.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

45 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I wonder if he's even really taking offers anymore through his agency, but I bet either way they're fielding stuff through the year. We know he still takes commissions for concert works plus "Dear Basketball," and of course The Book Thief he went after himself. It doesn't make sense that there haven't been plenty of other things floating around him in the meantime that we just never hear about, even if they were never considered.

 

It does seem like he's lately more receptive to people he already knows, though, like people who are able to just contact him directly. If Kobe Bryant hadn't befriended Williams beforehand and instead just offered him the project out of the blue, he might not have considered doing it. I wouldn't be too surprised if Chris Columbus asked him to do something out of his recent directing/producing stuff like Night at the Museum, The Help, Percy Jackson, or even Pixels...

 

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Williams was offered The Help.  In this hypothetical scenario he probably would have scored it too had it come out in an off-year.

Simon Pegg said they wanted to get Williams for the 2011 film Paul but he was "too expensive".  That being said, I can't really imagine him taking that assignment even if the scheduling and price had lined up.  The overtly irreverent tone of the movie would've provided little opportunity for Williams other than nostalgic window-dressing.  

Also, I do genuinely believe that Pixar was trying to get Williams to score Inside Out despite the fact that no official sources confirm it.

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

45 minutes ago, Philippe Roaché said:

Only Goldsmith seemed to slum it to the very end, bless his soul.

[Will 2,215]

1 hour ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Also, I do genuinely believe that Pixar was trying to get Williams to score Inside Out despite the fact that no official sources confirm it.

 

Wait, is there any evidence for this? Did I miss something? 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Directors are afraid of what Williams can do. That is he can actually score the movie rather than provide a soundscape or aural texture that the director can wallpaper over their badly over edited scenes.

 

Williams at his best can essentially redirect a movie on his piano with the way we can speed up or slow down a story at will, generate excitement or suspense or dread, create pathos or catharsis. I still think to E.T. as the finest example of this. A great movie without a score and even a humble movie - a little children's film about kids. But the score is so elaborate - absolutely no one would have written a score like that for a film like that.

 

Only filmmakers who have worked with him or who are confident in their craft (or those who are too awed by him) will dare hire him.

 

Supposing some young punk director got Williams and found Williams music too complex or orchestrally dense, what's he gonna do? Ask him to write it again? If someone's looking for a droning score, why would you even get JW in the first place.

 

The best way to work with JW would be to surrender your film to him. I think at this point we can say beyond a reasonable doubt that JW knows what he's doing.

 

So directors need not be pussies and should be willing to work with a co-creator whose work will be flashy and showy and draw attention to itself but also make that director's film better.

[publicist 4,643]

Just listen to recent film music for Oscar friendly dramas OR big adenture movies, Apart maybe from 'The Shape of Water' - which alludes to melos-Williams in a few places - they just do not sound like this since many years now. A few directors would go for it but i'm afraid more often than not it would be middle-of-the-road stuff like 'Book Thief' and not 'There Will Be Blood' or similar. 

 

Oliver Stone was really the last stroke of luck Williams had in the prestige film department.

[ocelot 508]

Also, Williams does not give the directors mock ups to listen to. He talks to them, he takes on the project, and then you see him at the scoring stage. He does at first play the themes to the director and then is left alone to score. Most directors now want to be "part of the whole thing" and that is not Williams way. Which I admire. Composers nowadays are treated like shit. And any idiot with samples and a keyboard and without being able to read or write music can call themselves a film composer and come out with sounds that serve the purpose of the scenes. It's quite sad actually.

[publicist 4,643]

3 hours ago, Philippe Roaché said:

Williams picks and chooses what he wants to do. Horner talked about reaching that point in his career in the mid-90s. Only Goldsmith seemed to slum it to the very end, bless his soul.

 

Let's not forget that he reached and departed it soon after. In the mid-2000's, Horner was fishing for assignments like he did in the early 90's (reason: his sound became outdated, by his own admission).

 

Re. Goldsmith: he just - idiosyncratically - chose to do stuff like 'Deep Rising' even if he didn't have to. He was for better or worse a more adventurous guy than either Williams or Horner, even if it did his career no favours.

[Thor 7,478]

I would hazard a guess that Williams gets plenty of requests, but then turns them down. Or directors are too concerned that he's too costly or unavailable, and don't ask in the first place.

[Quintus 5,399]

There'll be a loads of newer director's who would kill to have a Williams score, of course there will be. But he isn't available anymore. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

42 minutes ago, Quintus said:

There'll be a loads of newer director's who would kill to have a Williams score, of course there will be. But he isn't available anymore. 

 

Like how the "new" directors of the 70's started using Herrmann again? Could be.

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

There'll be a loads of newer director's who would kill to have a Williams score, of course there will be. But he isn't available anymore. 

 

(Film) musical aesthetics have changed. If directors would want that sound, you would hear it in more films. That is just not the case anymore, at least i would be interested which of those high profile movies and tv shows you have in mind that feature that kind of music.

[Quintus 5,399]

I know these things already. But I don't think it's just a few people like me on here who lament the lack of talent around at the moment of the calibre they heard a lot of in their formative years. If I were a film maker, I certainly wouldn't be content to have someone like John Powell, Michael Giacchino or Alexandre Desplat instead of the grand master himself (or Horner, or Goldsmith, or Barry, or Poledouris). In such an imaginary scenario, I think I'd go for Zimmer too, tbh. He's a great composer, after all. 

[publicist 4,643]

I never would go for Zimmer except when i wanted a light Rota score, but that's an IMHO. I sincerely believe that the current director's generation starting with Fincher has no use for the Williams'ses, Goldsmith's or anyone else from the old guard. Your best bet would be genre guys like Abrams and even there lots of fiddling around would occur (as TFA testified).

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

In recent films, I can think of Fantastic Beasts that had a big symphonic orchestral score. Or Tomorrowland / John Carter.

 

Some franchises do a big score, some don't. Like the Star Wars and Harry Potter franchises have the traditional dense orchestral sound. Not so with The DC and Marvel superhero movies of the day.

 

Even many animated films run with pastiche scores or mock scores or that variety.

 

Dramas go for smaller scores or eccentric scores.

[Jay 37,322]

John Williams was famously asked to score Jack Reacher and turned it down allowing Kraemer to score it, as recounted by Joe himself in some video interview I can't seem to find at the moment

 

 

[James 119]

10 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Directors are afraid of what Williams can do. 

 

I do not believe that the mastery and experience that Williams presents will scare the directors and producers. He never seemed inflexible or we never knew from any situation of him with any director in which the two did not share the same intentions about music as we heard of Goldsmith (Ridley Scott), Horner (Terrence Malick) and many others composers out there. 

It's a matter of choice. Williams could work with directors and producers with limited vision, but he chooses to work with those who admire his work.

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, publicist said:

I never would go for Zimmer except when i wanted a light Rota score, but that's an IMHO. I sincerely believe that the current director's generation starting with Fincher has no use for the Williams'ses, Goldsmith's or anyone else from the old guard. Your best bet would be genre guys like Abrams and even there lots of fiddling around would occur (as TFA testified).

 

Sounds more like you're resting your entire angle on what happened with TFA. The fact is, Williams has been semi retired for years now and only works for his friends and Star Wars. 

[publicist 4,643]

I rest it on the fact that there is hardly any old school score in recent years (for prestige movies by established directors, not mainstream dreck) and when it's not hardcore denial like Mann or Fincher (or Scott, for that matter), it's watered down Philip Glass or similar which makes your whole claim dubious. If people wanted Williams scores (what Williams usually provides), you would hear that.

[Quintus 5,399]

Not exactly unprolific Giacchino regularly scores in the Williams tradition of orchestral composition, just nowhere near as memorably as Williams does. Nobody is doing it, not to high standard. Neoromanticism isn't as passé as you try to make it out to be; it just isn't written all that well nowadays. The consequence of which is people looking elsewhere. This is a tangent at this point now anyway, since the original question was whether or not anybody would want Williams do their movie score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

13 hours ago, Philippe Roaché said:

Williams picks and chooses what he wants to do.

 

Yeah, I'm sure he gets lots of offers, but he has the luxury to choose only the projects which interest him and gives him sufficient time to write quality music.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

John Williams was famously asked to score Jack Reacher and turned it down allowing Kraemer to score it, as recounted by Joe himself in some video interview I can't seem to find at the moment

 

 

Never heard about that before!  Probably just wasn't Williams' type of movie.  I imagine it would have sounded like a hybrid of Black Sunday and Minority Report.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

JW refuses to work with Tom Cruise again after the latter was jumping up and down in JW's couch, exclaiming he was in love with JW's wife.

[publicist 4,643]

26 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Not exactly unprolific Giacchino regularly scores in the Williams tradition of orchestral composition, just nowhere near as memorably as Williams does. Nobody is doing it, not to high standard. Neoromanticism isn't as passé as you try to make it out to be; it just isn't written all that well nowadays. The consequence of which is people looking elsewhere. This is a tangent at this point now anyway, since the original question was whether or not anybody would want Williams do their movie score.

 

Nobody is talking about genre scores for franchise movies or animation. I think it was clear that we spoke about a new wave of respected directors and their avoidance of the kind of stuff Williams provides. You know, the kind of movie Williams actually would score.

[Jay 37,322]

51 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Never heard about that before!  Probably just wasn't Williams' type of movie.  I imagine it would have sounded like a hybrid of Black Sunday and Minority Report.

 

I don't know why I couldn't find the video, or even any discussion of it, I swear we talked about it here and on FSM but I can't find anything.  I think Joe recounted the story to Kaya Savas in a video on youtube somewhere.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

It would be kind of outrageous for Williams to score a third rate cheap action knock-off.

 

At this point in his career why would he bother with such films.

 

He didn't even care to score Ready Player One.

 

--

 

Personally i was hugely energized and thrilled by Williams score to The Post. Great to see him doing a smaller dramatic score instead of massive scores he has to write for SW.

 

I really hope he picks up another prestige dramatic project. 

[Quintus 5,399]

5 hours ago, publicist said:

 

Nobody is talking about genre scores for franchise movies or animation. I think it was clear that we spoke about a new wave of respected directors and their avoidance of the kind of stuff Williams provides. You know, the kind of movie Williams actually would score.

 

There's all sorts of films being made which are Williams fare, but he's retired from offers outside of his work for his friends and Star Wars. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

50 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

I don't know why I couldn't find the video, or even any discussion of it, I swear we talked about it here and on FSM but I can't find anything.  I think Joe recounted the story to Kaya Savas in a video on youtube somewhere.

 

Maybe it's one of those notorious false memories...

[Bespin 8,480]

Williams scored many really good "non-Blockbuster" movies that have not been made By Spielberg or Lucas in the last 20 years.

 

Sleepers, Rosewood, Seven years in Tibet, Stepmom, Angela's ashes, The Patriot, The Book Thief.

 

The James Horner quote I just read in this thread, is just bullshit. I don't remember having read such bullshit about John Wililams coming from another composer.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

2 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Sleepers, Rosewood, Seven years in Tibet, Stepmom, Angela's ashes, The Patriot, The Book Thief.

Rosewood is the only semi-good movie of the lot!  

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Tibet is decent, and The Patriot is fun.

[Bespin 8,480]

All those scores are brillant.

 

Don't ask John Williams to score new non-bluckbuster movies in the future, if you can't even appreciate the ones he did since the last 20 years...

 

Give me a break.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

I was referring to the movies, not the scores (which are superior).

[Lewya 360]

He either turned down or couldn't do Agora. The director said he offered up the movie for Williams to score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

That was before Affleck was made great again.

 

Edit: wrong movie 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

9 minutes ago, Lewya said:

He either turned down or couldn't do Agora. 

It was in 2009 so I doubt there was a scheduling conflict.  The film didn't appear to be very well received but it would have made for a really interesting Williams score.

[Lewya 360]

Outside of Spielberg, the most prestigious movie Williams has ever scored is probably one of the Stone's - Born on the Fourth of July maybe or The Long Goodbye. The Long Goodbye in particular seems to be praised as a masterpiece and one of Robert Altman's best films (top 5 at least, but often top 3). For me it is The Long Goodbye as Williams's most prestigious movie outside of Spielberg if I had to pick just one above the rest. There hasn't been anything since as prestigious as it for Williams. Born on the Fourth of July and JFK are high up on the list otherwise.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Rosewood is the only semi-good movie of the lot!  

You must be kidding!

 

I don't understand why directors should shy away from hiring John Williams because of his retarded sound. I mean, A.I., Minority Report, War of the Worlds, Munich, Sleepers, Presumed Innocent prove that he is clearly able to adopt his style heavily to any kind of movie. What he does can sound subtle, modern and it's still more effective than a droning score. He just didn't do it in recent years, so that could be why some filmmakers don't dare to ask him anymore.

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, Quintus said:

There's all sorts of films being made which are Williams fair, but he's retired from offers outside of his work for his friends and Star Wars. 

 

Yeah, as i said. More 'Book Thiefs'.

 

The ugly truth is that directors - those that matter, the festival crowd, those that stick, just look at the past 10 year's oscar nominees sans Spielberg - nowadays have different aesthetics, starting with the way they make films, edit films, use music and last but not least in their work relationships. I have read enough interviews and between the lines to realize what fundamental difference it makes if you have, say, Desplat or Beltrami on your movie, the way they interact with the temp, the sound scheme and so on. They are much more submissive than a guy like Williams, who of course will politely discuss stuff with you and meet a few times, but basically you get HIS music on the scoring stage, with a heavy emphasis on 'MUSIC' because that's what he is interested in doing (apart from being attached to prestige movies) and if you want to heavily interfere with this working process because you are Kathrin Bigelow and you want 'Zero Dark Thirty' technoid and background-y, you'll have pounds of fun later on. 

 

Filmmakers and Hollywood producers of course recognize the marquee value of his name, but i doubt they choose guys like Burwell, Desplat, Danna and lots of others providing music that sounds nothing like Williams just because Williams says no. Of course there will be exceptions but by and large, his style and working mode is passé. Which is of course also the reason why film music has gotten less and less interesting in the last 20 years. It's less about music but subservient additional tool in the sound mix.